[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

[King Louis II (KLII)]

3 hours ago, StepStark said:

Please watch again the death of Amory Lorch in season two and then think about how capable D&D really are. And the same for that Qarth nonsense in the same season. And for all the other stupidities from earlier seasons. Just watch again the scene where Robert's away hunting and Ned is on the Iron Throne receiving reports about Gregor's crimes in the Riverlands, and pay close attention to Littlefinger's lines in that scene - not in a million years can something like that pass for a competent writing. And not to mention the infamous sexposition scene with Ros and that other prositute, also from season one. The truth is that D&D were never better, they were always as incompetent as they are now, but people were easily distracted back then with scenes that were more faithful to the books. And yes, even school kids could write better than D&D, but not because D&D don't care any more, but because they couldn't write competently even if their lives depend on it.

There is a huge difference between the minor plot mistakes and small inconsistencies observed in the first 4 seasons and the complete BS seen in this season... There is not way, in my opinion, that the two things are comparable...

[StepStark]

2 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

There is a huge difference between the minor plot mistakes and small inconsistencies observed in the first 4 seasons and the complete BS seen in this season... There is not way, in my opinion, that the two things are comparable...

There is a difference indeed: Martin. He's the difference, not D&D. They were always this bad, but earlier they could cover their incompetence with Martin's material, but now they can't any more.

[Rhymes with Sneak]

1 hour ago, george said:

I know that it's easy to jump on the "The Writers Suck" train but the convo between Sam and Gilly was really bad.

 

What we got:

Gilly:  (some dialog about stairs and bowel movements)

Sam: (staring a book, but not really reading it) That's nice Gilly. *thought bubble - this maestering thing isn't what I thought it would be.*

Gilly:  Sam, what's an annulment? 

Sam:  (still staring a the book) It's a way to cancel a marriage *thought bubble - The arch maester is a jerk, all the maesters here think I'm an idiot. I hate them.*

Gilly:  (slowly pronouncing the names) It says here that Prince Ra, um Raagar Tar gair ian got an annulment and married someone named Li, Leeanna Sta...

Sam:  Be quiet Gilly!  Pack your things, we're leaving.

 

What we should have had:

Gilly:  Sam, what's an annulment? 

Sam:  (staring a book, but not really reading it) It's a way to cancel a marriage.

Gilly:  (slowly pronouncing the names) It says here that Prince Ra, um Raagar Tar gair ian got an annulment and married someone named Li, Leeanna Sta...

Sam:  (looking up at Gilly, curious) Lyanna Stark?

Gilly:  Yes, Stark.  Wasn't Lord Commander Snow's fathers name, Stark?

Sam:  Pack your things Gilly.  We're leaving.

 

First, basically Sam gives up his dream to become a maester and leaves the Citadel because he hates college and his roommates are jerks, not because someone just told him something important about his friend and that Sam might want tell him face to face.

Second, this is probably the most important bit of information in the show and the writers shut it down to show that Sam is unhappy.  Why?  Why have this scene at all if it's not leading to anything except that Sam has had enough of the Citadel?  Is it simply to show us that the writers haven't forgotten about the young Ned/Lyanna scene at the ToJ they showed us last season?

 

 

I agree that the scene is painful to watch, but I will say your change does not really fix it.  Sam has no reason at the moment to think it is urgent for Jon to know what Gilly is telling him.  That probably should have prompted some interest from any reasonably intelligent resident of Westeros, but Sam does not have any reason to connect Jon to Lyanna beyond it being interesting gossip about his long dead aunt.  Bran is probably the only person (unless they plan on introducing Meera's dad at this point) who can connect those dots.  So I imagine we will have another idiotic moment where Sam remembers something important that someone told him that is crucial to the story.  

 

[Jordan La Cabra]

2 minutes ago, StepStark said:

But you're obviously forcing yourself to like GOT. That's what you said just minute ago:

Your enjoyment in GOT is obviously a product of your decision what to switch and when. Again, that's your right, but it doesn't make much sense, sorry to say. And it definitely makes less sense than watching a show you dislike. At least I'm not making decisions about what I'm going to like and how. At the very least, I'm remaining open to possibility for the show to surprise me pleasantly, which they actually did in episode 4 with the battle (and ruined it entirely with the very first scene in episode 5).

I'm not forcing myself at all. As I already said, GOT is great opportunity to learn how bad writing truly looks. And it's a nice reminder because since this internet era started I usually watch only good movies and shows, and I almost forgot how bad ones look. And last but not least, I'm way too invested in ASOIAF.

But I don't hate the show. I just dislike it strongly, but that's not the same thing. The show did nothing wrong to me, and D&D did nothing wrong to me, I don't hate them, I just find their work embarrassingly bad. It's a rational conclusion and not an irrational feeling as you're trying to portray it.

Well they did made all those changes to the story for some reason. Since it's by now obvious that it all backfired and that the reason had nothing to do with storytelling or adapting, I can only conclude that they made at least some of those changes because they thought they're as good as if not better than GRRM. That's as arrogant as it gets in my eyes.

But even if it wasn't for the arrogance, those changes are still terrible. Remember Talisa? Remember Qarth? Remember Loras shaving Renly? Remember Ramsay torturing Theon for the entire season without revealing who he really is? All those examples are examples of terrible storytelling, and yes, it's even worse than summer blockbusters like Transformers, because Transformers weren't supposed to be an adaptation of a brilliant book series.

The example I gave of my thought process upon watching the show is akin and as simple to do as suspending my disbelief that I'm watching a show with dragons in it. It takes no effort for me to accept that I'm watching a show where there are likely to be logistical errors like Jon being in Dragonstone one scene and at the Wall the next, and it takes even less effort for me not be annoyed about moments like that when they do happen.

Oh, so you liked the battle, then? The big 'wow' moment of the series so far. The big blockbuster moment? The moment that I'd expect someone who likes something like, what, say, Transformers, to pick out as their favourite moment of the season so far?

You harp on about bad and good writing, but have you ever tried it? Maybe you have. I have. I did a degree in it. Got a first class honours, so I mustn't be too bad at it. But, boy, is it hard? You've got a scene in your head, it looks good, it sounds good but does it make sense? Is it realistic, or are you bending the rules to suit what you want to happen?

Every writer has faced that question. The very best come up with a way to make it work seemlessly without question. That's what GRRM does. But D&D aren't GRRM. They are tasked with trying to think like him, but they can't, because no one other than GRRM can think like he does.

They have the thankless task of trying to round up a story so vast that GRRM, the man who created the damn thing, can't seem to do. He can take his time as deadlines don't exist to him, but these guys can't take their time. They have to produce faster than he does without his brain power and knowledge. 

The bar should be set a lot lower for this show than it is. D&D are being hit with the expectation levels that GRRM has created, and they will never live up to it. 

What we are getting is ASOIAF-lite. Watch it, accept it for what it is and don't let it bother you. And if you can't do that, Winds may eventually come out and you'll get to see the real thing.

[WSmith84]

I refuse to not criticise D&D for their poor writing. Yes, they no longer have George's work to guide them. But so many of the complaints I have about the show come from basic writing mistakes and sloppy attention to detail. That the show is not as good as it once was when it had the books to guide it was probably a given. That the quality nosedived so completely (and this actually started when there were 2 books left!) cannot simply be put down to not having a script.

[Illiterati]

30 minutes ago, TimeforTravel said:

This episode was so rushed and terrible. My biggest gripe:

 

Jon "Hey Jorah, you're the son of Lord Commander Mormont. What a coincidence we meet!"

Sam: "Hey, a crippled boy? I know him, that's Bran Stark! What a coincidence you mention him!"

Gendy: "Hey Jon, you father knows my father. I saw him once! what a coincidence!" Jon: "I know right? I met your father once as well. What a coincidence indeed!"

Jon: "You're the Hound! I saw you once at my home, Winterstreet #6! What a coincidence!"

Gendry: "It's them. They shipped me off with a Red Witch. What a coincidence they're here!"

Tormund: "You're a fucking Mormont? Like the last commander Mormont? Oh my, what a fucking coincidence!!!!!!!"

Jorah: "Thoros? What a coincidence!"

 

Westeros doesn't seem to be a continent. More like a street with a happy bunch of neighbors. Westerstreet. 

 

 

The fact is that all those paths crossed, and these are comments that would be realistic if you run into people you know in small world situations.

[TimeforTravel]

2 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

The fact is that all those paths crossed, and these are comments that would be realistic if you run into people you know in small world situations.

The dialogue is forced and it's not realistic that all their paths would cross. Especially in one episode it was a huge collection of eyeroll moments.

[Illiterati]

2 hours ago, george said:

I know that it's easy to jump on the "The Writers Suck" train but the convo between Sam and Gilly was really bad.

 

What we got:

Gilly:  (some dialog about stairs and bowel movements)

Sam: (staring a book, but not really reading it) That's nice Gilly. *thought bubble - this maestering thing isn't what I thought it would be.*

Gilly:  Sam, what's an annulment? 

Sam:  (still staring a the book) It's a way to cancel a marriage *thought bubble - The arch maester is a jerk, all the maesters here think I'm an idiot. I hate them.*

Gilly:  (slowly pronouncing the names) It says here that Prince Ra, um Raagar Tar gair ian got an annulment and married someone named Li, Leeanna Sta...

Sam:  Be quiet Gilly!  Pack your things, we're leaving.

 

What we should have had:

Gilly:  Sam, what's an annulment? 

Sam:  (staring a book, but not really reading it) It's a way to cancel a marriage.

Gilly:  (slowly pronouncing the names) It says here that Prince Ra, um Raagar Tar gair ian got an annulment and married someone named Li, Leeanna Sta...

Sam:  (looking up at Gilly, curious) Lyanna Stark?

Gilly:  Yes, Stark.  Wasn't Lord Commander Snow's fathers name, Stark?

Sam:  Pack your things Gilly.  We're leaving.

 

First, basically Sam gives up his dream to become a maester and leaves the Citadel because he hates college and his roommates are jerks, not because someone just told him something important about his friend and that Sam might want tell him face to face.

Second, this is probably the most important bit of information in the show and the writers shut it down to show that Sam is unhappy.  Why?  Why have this scene at all if it's not leading to anything except that Sam has had enough of the Citadel?  Is it simply to show us that the writers haven't forgotten about the young Ned/Lyanna scene at the ToJ they showed us last season?

 

 

This is a beautiful illustration why writing can be so challenging.  Your version is worse than the original version.

Why?  Stark is a major House in Westeros, so the mere mention of Stark is not going to raise eyebrows-it's probably all over those books and journals.  He may have said, "Oh, she must be related to Jon!"  But he would possess none of the pieces he would need to put enough of it together to say, "OMFG, we've got to get to Jon Snow YESTERDAY with this!"  

Honestly, I think the writers were wise to cut off the conversation before Lyanna was mentioned for this very reason.....That light bulb isn't going to come on until Bran mentions that Eddard had rescued the baby of Rhaeger and his sis, and nor should it.  Him hearing the Stark name and not being able to process anything out of the info would have been confusing to many of us.  "Ohmagerd he just learned that Jon Snow is Aegon Targaryan, and he's doing nothing about it!"

They shut it down so that fans don't jump the gun on it.  There is a recipe at play here, and it is still missing the main ingredient.

[Cas Stark]

18 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

I refuse to not criticise D&D for their poor writing. Yes, they no longer have George's work to guide them. But so many of the complaints I have about the show come from basic writing mistakes and sloppy attention to detail. That the show is not as good as it once was when it had the books to guide it was probably a given. That the quality nosedived so completely (and this actually started when there were 2 books left!) cannot simply be put down to not having a script.

Exactly.  You don't need to have a drawer full of Emmy's to remember your own previous season details, or to stop writing the story so that armies continually show up, after traveling hundreds of miles with no one noticing, or Dany not bothering to look for the queen's brother, who, not only just tried to kill her and Drogon, but who would be a valuable hostage.  No wight hunt needed.  Or, to let these many reunions breath a little and have the dialogue be realistic, like siblings talking about their dead brother.  The show has been sloppy on the details for a loooonnngg time.  But, they don't even care about the big things any more.  I didn't even bother to go into characters doing things that make no sense in universe.  But somehow it can be hand waved away because "magic".  So lame.

[Lord Okra]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Exactly.  You don't need to have a drawer full of Emmy's to remember your own previous season details, or to stop writing the story so that armies continually show up, after traveling hundreds of miles with no one noticing, or Dany not bothering to look for the queen's brother, who, not only just tried to kill her and Drogon, but who would be a valuable hostage.  No wight hunt needed.  Or, to let these many reunions breath a little and have the dialogue be realistic, like siblings talking about their dead brother.  The show has been sloppy on the details for a loooonnngg time.  But, they don't even care about the big things any more.  I didn't even bother to go into characters doing things that make no sense in universe.  But somehow it can be hand waved away because "magic".  So lame.

D&D are following a loose outline given by GRRM.

As far as anybody here knows, GRRM is going to have some small group go north of the wall to get a wight.  I've assumed that every major event is because it relates to the outline GRRM gave D&D.

I understand people are upset that they have to come to the show in order to find out anything about the ending since GRRM has basically stopped producing books for them to enjoy but please don't blame D&D for stuff like Jon going north of the wall to get a wight as proof as if there is no chance that was in the outline given by GRRM to D&D.

I suspect that a group will go north of the wall to grab a wight in the books (if they are ever released) so blaming D&D for that happening wouldn't be fair to them.  They are loosely following the story laid down by GRRM.  It is definitely possible that D&D invented the entire scheme to capture a wight but I doubt it.

[StepStark]

25 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

The example I gave of my thought process upon watching the show is akin and as simple to do as suspending my disbelief that I'm watching a show with dragons in it.

That's a perfect excuse for any nonsense D&D make. Why complain about it at all then? Why complain about any of the scenes? If dragons make anything pass, then what's the problem with Jaime and Bronn surviving that cliffhanger?

27 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

It takes no effort for me to accept that I'm watching a show where there are likely to be logistical errors like Jon being in Dragonstone one scene and at the Wall the next, and it takes even less effort for me not be annoyed about moments like that when they do happen.

I'd say that it's pretty lame, considering that time issues are the very reason for Jon's mission. Am I supposed to think about time, or not to think about time?

29 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Oh, so you liked the battle, then? The big 'wow' moment of the series so far. The big blockbuster moment? The moment that I'd expect someone who likes something like, what, say, Transformers, to pick out as their favourite moment of the season so far?

It's not my fault that the only scene in this entire season that had any similarity whatsoever with ASOIAF is a big battle. I don't have a problem with big battles, by the way. Battle are not the reason I stay away from Transformers.

31 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

You harp on about bad and good writing, but have you ever tried it?

What that has to do with anything? I never composed either, but I do know the difference between Beethoven and Katy Perry.

33 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

They have the thankless task of trying to round up a story so vast that GRRM, the man who created the damn thing, can't seem to do. He can take his time as deadlines don't exist to him, but these guys can't take their time. They have to produce faster than he does without his brain power and knowledge. 

The bar should be set a lot lower for this show than it is. D&D are being hit with the expectation levels that GRRM has created, and they will never live up to it.

Lannisters abandoning Casterley Rock is not something that can be explained with the lack of books. It's just stupid. Anyone who can write something as stupid, should know better than to try to adapt something as complex as ASOIAF. I was not born to be a great basketball player, and D&D were obviously not born to be great writers, but there are important differences: 1) I am aware of my limitations; 2) nobody would or should set the bar lower and let me into NBA just because I am what I am; 3) I don't get paid and I don't get insane media coverage for things I do badly.

41 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

What we are getting is ASOIAF-lite.

Try with ASOIAF-brainless.

41 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Watch it, accept it for what it is and don't let it bother you. And if you can't do that, Winds may eventually come out and you'll get to see the real thing.

Can I keep watching it without the rest of your advice? I'm okay with watching something I dislike and then criticizing it on a forum. It doesn't bother me in any way, especially because it's not a matter of letting myself feel something. I sincerely don't get the point of watching something and "not letting it bother you". Looks like you're more bothered by GOT than I am actually.

[Holly Macaroni]

...ahem...

 

Dany:   Jorah! You came back! Does that mean you're cured?

Jorah:    Yes, my Queen...

Dany:    You are my best friend...

[hug]

Tyrion:    Wait...Does that mean he found the cure for the f***** plague?

Random Dothraki:   My cousin's got grayscale! This is great news!

Varys:    My queen, if you cure Grayscale, your aproval rating will skyrocket!!

[StepStark]

53 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Yes, I would.

I'd also like the book guys who hate the show to leave this forum but I'm not a mod and I do have sympathy for the book fans.

All they have is a show they hate since GRRM isn't giving what they wanted.

It isn't right but the solution isn't to have them congregate on the show forum to attack it relentlessly.

"Teacher, teacher, some kids are saying bad things about a show I love so much, please make them stop, please, I can't take it any more!"

[Capo Ferro]

53 minutes ago, StepStark said:

 

Lannisters abandoning Casterley Rock is not something that can be explained with the lack of books. It's just stupid. Anyone who can write something as stupid, should know better than to try to adapt something as complex as ASOIAF. I was not born to be a great basketball player, and D&D were obviously not born to be great writers, but there are important differences: 1) I am aware of my limitations; 2) nobody would or should set the bar lower and let me into NBA just because I am what I am; 3) I don't get paid and I don't get insane media coverage for things I do badly.

Wait, why is that stupid?  Casterly Rock isn't the Twins or Moat Caillin, important because they allow north/south traffic to be cut off.  It has no special strategic position, it just sits there on its own on the coast guarding some apparently now exhausted mines.  In Martin's books it was stupid for Theon to take Winterfell which shares with casterly rock the qualities of being a not very strategically important strong castle that's home to one of the great Westeros families so why is it stupid for Jaimie to leave only a defensive force at casterly rock (it wasn't abandoned) and use the bulk of the Lannister army elsewhere to do actual offensive work? 

 

 

 

 

[Le Cygne]

2 hours ago, The Onion Kniggit said:

10-30 fucking gold dragons to bribe two useless guards!?

Do recall Selwyn Tarth offered 300 dragons for Brienne which is meant to be a noblemen's ransom and Tywin put a 100 Stags bounty on the Hound AKA one of the most formidable and ruthless fighters in Westeros...

Either D&D forgot everything about currency(as they do with everything else) or Davos is one shit negotiator. 

Oh that's another thing, they killed the guards then didn't take the gold back. Would have take less than a minute.

[StepStark]

4 minutes ago, Capo Ferro said:

Wait, why is that stupid?  Casterly Rock isn't the Twins or Moat Caillin, important because they allow north/south traffic to be cut off.  It has no special strategic position, it just sits there on its own on the coast guarding some apparently now exhausted mines.  In Martin's books it was stupid for Theon to take Winterfell which shares with casterly rock the qualities of being a not very strategically important strong castle that's home to one of the great Westeros families so why is it stupid for Jaimie to leave only a defensive force at casterly rock (it wasn't abandoned) and use the bulk of the Lannister army elsewhere to do actual offensive work? 

You're right, Casterly Rock just sits there. Winterfell too. Not like other castles which, I don't know, run around or something...

[Lady Fevre Dream]

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

Oh that's another thing, they killed the guards then didn't take the gold back. Would have take less than a minute.

LOL  Especially considering it was Davos, who's been hanging out with King Jonny, and the only thing they've been mining is dragonglass, not gold, not silver, LOL  Davos, Dude........get your money back, you're as bad a Dany, burning the food and not getting there til the gold was gone. 

I do kid, I love Davos.  Even when they have him do stupid things. 

[Lord Okra]

14 minutes ago, StepStark said:

"Teacher, teacher, some kids are saying bad things about a show I love so much, please make them stop, please, I can't take it any more!"

Are you like 12 years old or something?

I came in here and told JH he should let you guys complain in this topic.

Now you can complain til your heart is content and he won't even correct your asinine positions.  You guys are too sensitive.  I think you should have a topic where you can cry about the show you hate.  One is plenty.  

Enjoy the complaining and next week's show.

[StepStark]

4 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Oh that's another thing, they killed the guards then didn't take the gold back. Would have take less than a minute.

That's right, they didn't! I forgot about that. I hope that none of our show loving friends will hear this, but that's really stupid, right? It would take 10 seconds at most.

But it's not as if gold has some strategic value, truth be told. In the middle of a war, and at the beginning of the winter... Who needs 30 gold coins? When Casterly Rock means nothing, what's 30 gold dragons?!

[StepStark]

6 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Are you like 12 years old or something?

I came in here and told JH he should let you guys complain in this topic.

Now you can complain til your heart is content and he won't even correct your asinine positions.  You guys are too sensitive.  I think you should have a topic where you can cry about the show you hate.  One is plenty.  

Enjoy the complaining and next week's show.

Good thing that that's all you did! God forbid you kept around for an exchange or two! You grown-up you!