Col Cinders

I think the scroll...

104 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Lord Baelish:ph34r:

The ultimate mastermind, schemer, seducer, is going to get killed by 3 dull children that have access to HBO through Dr. Branhattan

Very funny, Ser Yorick! And your tag line is hilarious! Do you teach English?

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28 minutes ago, The Bastard of Summer said:

I do not think she will just take the letter to Sansa and put a knife to her throat and be like haa haa haa I knew you were plotting against Jon. She will again confront Sansa but this time about the letter. She will ask her the orgins behind the letter. There will be a conversation.

I'm not even sure if she actually loves her, she really disregards her, anyway. There will be a conversation indeed, and I already hear Arya accusing Sansa of collaborating with Cersei very easily, that she would have resist, or run, or even die but not collaborate, and it is already getting on my nerves! <_<

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3 hours ago, Col Cinders said:

I just had a "holy shit!" moment reading your post.

Arya is acting like a child.  Emphasis on acting.

The argument and friction between the two sisters is part of their drawing him out!

Of course I don't know this.  But I think you are on the right track.

Ooh, I so hope you are right! And ir would be so like this show to make you think that Arya is fooling LF, then that LF is outsmarting her, only to learn that she actually outwitted him. 

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I think the game is set this way:

Arya now has information that tells her that Sansa wanted that parchment erased from records, and that she was at one point well treated by the lannisters and urging her brother Robb to go bend his knee.

Sansa now knows for a fact that Arya is impulsive and still a child in the way things works, her outburst at the stark bedchamber was not a woman asking another woman about their loyalties, it was a brash child (and a deadly one) claiming that killing her enemies is the easy way, and a leader noticing the stupid logic behind that, Sansa may be tempted to underestimate Arya drive.

Bran should know what is going now, he has the only power that ought to defeat any schemer in this world, his all seeing omnisciensce allow him to simply rat out littlefinger and have the situation defused.

I would bet that the reason for Bran to really being in winterfell now is just for him besting littlefinger.

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Posted (edited)

14 minutes ago, Infeth said:

I'm not even sure if she actually loves her, she really disregards her, anyway. There will be a conversation indeed, and I already hear Arya accusing Sansa of collaborating with Cersei very easily, that she would have resist, or run, or even die but not collaborate, and it is already getting on my nerves! <_<

Sansa showed the same contempt if not more for Arya. What is your point exactly? Let me guess you hate Arya but LOVE Sansa, and Sansa can do no wrong?

Edited by The Bastard of Summer

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I am not a sansa fan but she wasn't doing anything wrong. She had to listen to their complaints and she couldn't just tell them "sit down and shut up". I really hope arya is playing at something and they don't just make her into a psychopath who does stupid things for no reason.

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57 minutes ago, darmody said:

That's a weird way to put it. Jon is her flesh and blood too, even if he's her cousin instead of her half-brother. 

Still, he does what bastards shouldn't do - cheat the main line out of their inheritance. Arya would never side with Jon against Sansa, Bran, or herself. These people know what bastards are. They are raised with a sense of entitlement and a very good grasp of the law. And Arya understands that even if she doesn't like it.

The idea that Arya would fault Sansa for actually wanting what's hers by right according to every law and custom in the Seven Kingdoms is ridiculous. They could have made her not liking Sansa because she is weak and incapable to do what needs to be done, etc. but faulting her for wanting what is hers (or Bran's) by right of birth is just silly.

Just as silly as Catelyn considering Jon a member of her family. He is not. And never was.

Not to mention - you know - that the book Arya most likely would want to put down Jon for his treason and oathbreaking. She did kill Dareon if you recall, sure as hell she wouldn't be all that willing to overlook Jon's own oathbreaking, especially not if didn't have the full picture. That is, unless she is a mindless Jon fan girl for no good reason - as she apparently is in the show.

She can certainly like him but just thinking he has a right to Winterfell and the kingship is just unbearable. He has not. She has. Bran has. Sansa has.

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25 minutes ago, The Bastard of Summer said:

Sansa showed the same contempt if not more for Arya. What is your point exactly? Let me guess you hate Arya but LOVE Sansa, and Sansa can do no wrong?

Oh no you're wrong, I used to be quite fan of Arya in the previous season, she was brave, honest and resilient, but I don't understand who she became in S7. She had the unhoped chance to survive and to come back home, to find back her family, something that many characters could not have, but her attitude seems so ungrateful in comparison of her luck... When your family has gone through such a misery, after such events, when everything get better, you don't look after the conflict, you try to fix what can be fixed and you build the future, even if she didn't like her sister, does it really matter after all they went through? She seems very capricious to me, while Sansa welcomed her with pleasure even if she became very different.

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1 minute ago, ImNoSer said:

they hinted at little finger doing this in previous episodes when he gives the maester a look after he said luwin kept a copy of every raven scroll.

Oh, then it makes sense. No, it doesn't. Why on earth should he do something like that? What is the point of preserving every single letter a lord ever receives, never mind whether it is important or not?

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Obvious to me that LF thinks he is 3 steps ahead of Arya, like he always thinks he is, but she is in fact 3 steps ahead of him.

She is trapping LF, whether or not Sansa is in on it yet or not.

Of course, this is the end of LF -- so what better way for him to go than to be out-littlefingered by Arya?

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LF is playing his best move.

Aray is stealthy, but completely oblivious to plotting. LF expects her to be like her farther and go for the simplest answers.

He knows she would never believe him if LF gave her the note, but by going and "cloak & dagger" he knows she will think he does not want anyone else to find the note.

Aray will go to Sansa and accuse her (just like Eddard did to Cercei) and LF can be all protective of Sansa, making Aray 100% certain LF got the note to protect Sansa making the note even more legit.

 

LF saw Aray in action, and he is likely has put 2 and 2 togther and deducted she killed the Freys, so he hopes she will create, what he loves best, Chaos.

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the whole setup is moronic because there would no need to keep such a letter

The maester kept a complete record. Lots of people do that, especially in those positions. It's why the archives of the world are filled with mundane letters from the 1600s.

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And yet Bran can make all of this moot and bring it to an anticlimactic end any time he wants.

 

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43 minutes ago, Infeth said:

Oh no you're wrong, I used to be quite fan of Arya in the previous season, she was brave, honest and resilient, but I don't understand who she became in S7. She had the unhoped chance to survive and to come back home, to find back her family, something that many characters could not have, but her attitude seems so ungrateful in comparison of her luck... When your family has gone through such a misery, after such events, when everything get better, you don't look after the conflict, you try to fix what can be fixed and you build the future, even if she didn't like her sister, does it really matter after all they went through? She seems very capricious to me, while Sansa welcomed her with pleasure even if she became very different.

I'm sorry that you don't know who Arya has become since her return from Braavos. But she is still and will always remain my second favorite character.  She has had her own perilous journey and she is far from perfect. She was a young child put in a position where she and to kill to survive.  Sansa is not alone in her suffering. Sansa has seen shit, and Arya has seen a lot of shit. Arya needs to learn to be a bit more diplomatic in solving situations ABSOLUTELY. Arya needs to try and like NOT killing everyone. She is consumed by revenge and acting out justice on behalf of her family. She has no reason to harm Sansa. I don't think she will. Mistrust Sansa? Yes I can understand. She will not harm a member of the same family she wants justice for. That makes no sense. Sansa is not going to make a mad grab for power and Arya won't hurt Sansa.

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Posted (edited)

53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Still, he does what bastards shouldn't do - cheat the main line out of their inheritance. Arya would never side with Jon against Sansa, Bran, or herself. These people know what bastards are. They are raised with a sense of entitlement and a very good grasp of the law. And Arya understands that even if she doesn't like it...Just as silly as Catelyn considering Jon a member of her family. He is not. And never was...Se can certainly like him but just thinking he has a right to Winterfell and the kingship is just unbearable. 

Winterfell should belong to Bran and Sandra after him. Arya should be fine with that, whether she likes Jon better or not. Is it possible for Jon to be king without being lord of something?

Question marks loom over the kingship. Jon's claim is by acclamation, not legitimate descent. Is it supposed to be old Stark claim from the time before dragons? Is it Robb's claim renewed? Or is it its own thing, thought up on the spot? 

Throw into mix the fact that Jon rose from the dead and they're facing an Army of the Dead and White Walkers. Jon's the only man on Planetos besides Sam who's successfully fought them. There's nothing like that in medieval European history.

Unlike Cersei's ridiculous adventures against tradition, such conditions actually could overturn precedent. 

All of this may be moot point when it's revealed that Jon is a Targaryen and the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne. 

Edited by darmody

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1 hour ago, The Bastard of Summer said:

Sansa showed the same contempt if not more for Arya. What is your point exactly? Let me guess you hate Arya but LOVE Sansa, and Sansa can do no wrong?

Sandra was being reasonable (for once) and Arya was being a little psycho (per usual). And I hate Sandra. 

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1 minute ago, darmody said:

Sandra was being reasonable (for once) and Arya was being a little psycho (per usual). And I hate Sandra. 

Okay, Did Arya come on s bit strong? Yes but she was ONLY addressing what she had OBSERVED AND HEARD. Arya spent years in Braavos and a bit of training with Syrio to not just look but SEE. She also spent those years in Braavos with the waif SEEING the lie. Whatever Sansa was giving off Arya picked up on. That's all I'm saying. Did Sansa deny any of those accusations when Arya told her what she what she knew she was feeling?

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Arya would never side with Jon against Sansa, Bran, or herself. These people know what bastards are. They are raised with a sense of entitlement and a very good grasp of the law. And Arya understands that even if she doesn't like it.

Obviously showArya would, since she is doing it.

I think bookArya would too, given that Robb's will provides a much stronger foundation for supporting Jon as King in the North than a group of Lords  hailing  him out of the blue,  and not even one of them at least asking "with all due respect, how is it that you left the Night's Watch? I thought your wows were till death". So in book universe, I can see Arya backing Jon too, since he wouldn't be a bastard and would have been named heir by his predecessor. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Just as silly as Catelyn considering Jon a member of her family. He is not. And never was.

He  wasn't her family, but he was her husband's  and her children's family.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Not to mention - you know - that the book Arya most likely would want to put down Jon for his treason and oathbreaking.

What treason? :unsure:

Edited by LucyMormont

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36 minutes ago, Anarres said:

The maester kept a complete record. Lots of people do that, especially in those positions. It's why the archives of the world are filled with mundane letters from the 1600s.

And that's how we can reconstruct history and discover the facts of the past. If our technology dissapears for some reason, people in the future would have it harder to research on our times, since we don't write letters anymore.

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30 minutes ago, darmody said:

Winterfell should belong to Bran and Sandra after him. Arya should be fine with that, whether she likes Jon better or not. Is it possible for Jon to be king without being lord of something?

He is both king and Lord of Winterfell.

30 minutes ago, darmody said:

Question marks loom over the kingship. Jon's claim is by acclamation, not legitimate descent. Is it supposed to be old Stark claim from the time before dragons? Is it Robb's claim renewed? Or is it its own thing, thought up on the spot?

Jon is proclaimed king because of his Stark ancestry. That is pretty clear in the scene as I recall it (I only watched that crap once). They dismiss 'Lady Bolton' because she is unworthy and then settle on Jon because he is the Bastard of Winterfell, do they not?

30 minutes ago, darmody said:

Throw into mix the fact that Jon rose from the dead and they're facing an Army of the Dead and White Walkers. Jon's the only man on Planetos besides Sam who's successfully fought them. There's nothing like that in medieval European history.

But they don't care and/or do not not know about that, do they? It never comes up when he is proclaimed king. Nor do the people there actually give a shit about the Others? Who of the people declaring him king makes it clear that they believe they exist and choose him because they want him to fight them?

30 minutes ago, darmody said:

Unlike Cersei's ridiculous adventures against tradition, such conditions actually could overturn precedent. 

How do you know? There are no hints that anything but noble blood matters in this society. It is feudal aristocracy down to its rotten core. Commoners - even merchants - are essentially nothing. 

But just because some dude from your family proved himself in battle (which Jon did only to be saved by the knights of the Vale) doesn't mean they make you king against a better claimant. Artos the Implacable didn't become Lord of Winterfell despite the fact that he defeated Raymun Redbeard's wildlings.

30 minutes ago, darmody said:

All of this may be moot point when it's revealed that Jon is a Targaryen and the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne. 

How so? That should unmake his kingship in the North because the North clearly doesn't want to be ruled by the dragon brats, not to mention that they might be pissed about the fact that their king is not, in fact, a son of Lord Eddard Stark.

Dany's people won't give a shit about Jon's legal claims or ancestry. They really chose her to be their queen. Those freed slaves, sellswords, Dothraki, etc. couldn't care less about the Targaryen family tree. And in the show there are no other Targaryen loyalists but Dany's people left in Westeros.

20 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

Obviously showArya would, since she is doing it.

I think bookArya would too, given that Robb's will provides a much stronger foundation for supporting Jon as King in the North than a group of Lords  hailing  him out of the blue,  and not even one of them at least asking "with all due respect, how is it that you left the Night's Watch? I thought you". So in book universe, I can see Arya backing Jon too, since he wouldn't be a bastard and would have been named heir by his predecessor. 

LOL, no. The will - if it contains what we think it does - names Jon Robb's heir because Sansa is a Lannister now and Brandon, Rickon, and Arya are believed to be dead - which they are not. Such a will is worth nothing if the heirs in question are only wrongly believed to be dead.

Now, if Rickon ends up dying, Bran stays in the cave, Arya never returns to Westeros, and Sansa remains disguised in the Vale Jon could end up claiming Winterfell. But in any other scenario this is not going to happen, especially not when the Stark children should all return to Winterfell.

Arya may love Jon, but what on earth makes you believe she would allow him to claim her father's seat before herself. She is a trueborn Stark of Winterfell.

In addition, people forget that the will is in the hands of Howland Reed right now. A man who actually knows who Jon's real father is. And that means he won't allow that man to claim a castle and title he has no right to. Robb most likely named his half-brother his heir, not his cousin.

And if he legitimized him in his decree that would also be problematic considering that he may not even be a bastard, and most certainly not Eddard Stark's bastard.

20 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

He  wasn't her family, but he was her husband's  and her children's family.

No, he was not her family. She made that very clear. And he isn't. Not as Ned's bastard and not as Lyanna's son.

20 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

What treason? :unsure:

To leave the NW? To have an affair with a wildling girl beyond the Wall? Arya killed poor Dareon for similar trespasses in Braavos.

If she takes the NW vow that seriously she is not going to rejoice at the idea that her half-brother presumes to crown himself and rule as king from Winterfell. And she most certainly won't think he has a better claim than Sansa, Bran, or she herself.

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