Col Cinders

I think the scroll...

104 posts in this topic

Sansa could easily have shut down the dissent in the hall.  Something like 'we of the north are not Lannisters - we do not betray our kings,  And you Lords of the Vale - your words are 'high honor' - we must all honor our word to King Jon.  The Long Night is coming, we must all work together' blah blah

But Littlefinger's seeds in Sansa's head are sprouting and he is feeding the desires she has (which Arya noted).  The scroll is a tool to use to further estrange Sansa from her sister.  Since Bran is now a weird raven instead of a little brother, Sansa will soon have few emotional ties to any of her siblings.  She is already acting more like Cersei and perhaps would be, even without Littlefinger's influence.

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7 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

I'm hoping that they're working together (with those two lords) to draw him out so he screws up and over extends himself.  

The only concern I have is the private conversation between Sansa and Arya.  Arya seems very... dense. I don't like her "solve my problems by killing everyone" philosophy. 

The way Arya mistrust Sansa bothered me too. But I hope this will change when Arya kills LF :P

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8 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Arya seems very... dense. I don't like her "solve my problems by killing everyone" philosophy. 

Arya is second only to Drogon in this season's kill count. It's what she does, and how the last few years have shaped her.

It seems true to her character. Maybe it'll come back to haunt her, but that's good: flawed characters are more interesting.

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9 hours ago, King Edd of House Tollet said:

So, finally Littlefinger was being Littlefinger....but, he forgot one thing...Bran

I mean, eventually Bran will get out of his Dr. Manhattan-thing for a time to tell everyone LF is a cunt

Yes.. "Hey Sansa and Arya, LF is a big ass cunt, Kill em"

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Why do the Sansa fans claim, she wrote that letter under pressure? She was in love with her Jeffy, and she did believe her father a traitor, you cannot deny that!

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1 minute ago, Ice C said:

Why do the Sansa fans claim, she wrote that letter under pressure? She was in love with her Jeffy, and she did believe her father a traitor, you cannot deny that!

I'm not a Sansa fan but we can totally believe she wrote it under duress.  

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10 hours ago, Col Cinders said:

I just had a "holy shit!" moment reading your post.

Arya is acting like a child.  Emphasis on acting.

The argument and friction between the two sisters is part of their drawing him out!

Of course I don't know this.  But I think you are on the right track.

 

Maybe Arya is testing Sansa.  She was smiling when Sansa was talking to Royce and Glover.  We also need to remember she is still a child, and violence is all she has been exposed to since Kings Landing.  Not to mention she has been molded by some pretty efficient killers.  

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In addition, people forget that the will is in the hands of Howland Reed right now.

OMG! Totally miss this part.

Was this in the books or/and the show? Book/show details are killing me.
 

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10 hours ago, Col Cinders said:

I just had a "holy shit!" moment reading your post.

Arya is acting like a child.  Emphasis on acting.

The argument and friction between the two sisters is part of their drawing him out!

Of course I don't know this.  But I think you are on the right track.

I think that is plausible too, and it would be a nice twist and more unpredictable than we've seen so far on season 7. If you follow logic and character development, it should be what happens.

If Ayra has half a brain, she realizes that scroll is something Sansa sent years ago, when they were both different people and both Ayra and Sansa were lying their asses off to save themselves.  I don't know if season 7 has the patience for something like this, but Ayra and Sansa are different people now, and they should act like it. Ok maybe not "act" but you get what I mean.

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16 hours ago, Col Cinders said:

I just had a "holy shit!" moment reading your post.

Arya is acting like a child.  Emphasis on acting.

The argument and friction between the two sisters is part of their drawing him out!

Of course I don't know this.  But I think you are on the right track.

How? LF wasn't in the room. The bribed handmaiden wasn't in the room. Nobody was in the room. What's the point of faking a fight if there is no one to hear it and if you have no guarantee that there is someone listening behind the door. Why would they even do it? Arya saw LF 5 seasons ago, she has no idea what he did since then. Sansa may be a bit annoyed by him, yet she understands that it is important to keep him and she continues to consult stuff with him. And Bran said nothing about him. So I suppose that the two girls just decided to play hide-and-seek with LF for fun, there's no other motivation really, as so far LF did nothing to make the sisters fall apart or so.

15 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Why is he planting the letter in his own room?  Isn't that just making himself Arya's target as well?  Why wouldn't he plant it in something of Sansa's and arrange for Arya to find it?

Well, he is playing Arya. He knew that Arya was following him and he wanted her to find it. I suppose that this letter is supposed to created tension between the two girls with Arya blaming LF for betrayal and Sansa defending him.

Why would Arya go throught Sansa's things though?

 

14 hours ago, Kleia said:

Aside from figuring it all out straight away, which seems unlikely given Arya is fairly confident in her abilities, Arya pretty much has two possible theories about Sansa and Littlefinger at this point.  So what does she think their end game is?  Just getting Winterfell for themselves or at worst, she could possibly think they are trying to hide that they are still loyal to the Lannisters?

 

An interesting idea! I mean, we all know that it isn't true but I think it's a really interesting idea that Arya might think this.

 

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, then it makes sense. No, it doesn't. Why on earth should he do something like that? What is the point of preserving every single letter a lord ever receives, never mind whether it is important or not?

- an archive for searching, confirming and verifying stuff

- maester usually write histories and stuff, those letters could serve as a kind of "insider info" for the histories and as a clue what was happening when

 

6 hours ago, Ice C said:

Why do the Sansa fans claim, she wrote that letter under pressure? She was in love with her Jeffy, and she did believe her father a traitor, you cannot deny that!

No, she did write it under pressure. Talking about the books, they (Cersei, LF, Varys, Pycelle) tried to convinced her that Ned was a traitor but she didn't believe it. They manipulated her to write the letter by saying that she is a traitor's daughter and so she cannot be trusted and allowed to marry the prince. She was terrified. Cersei's exact words are "The word of your lord father’s treason will no doubt reach them [Catelyn, Robb etc] soon. Better that it should come from you. You must tell them how Lord Eddard betrayed his king. [...] We will tell you what to write, child.”

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6 hours ago, The Great Udder said:

OMG! Totally miss this part.

Was this in the books or/and the show? Book/show details are killing me.

Since there was no will in the show it is clearly books. Robb gave his will to Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover and they went into the Neck and never came out again. It is quite clear that this will is right now with Howland Reed. And Howland Reed most likely has no interest in making Prince X Targaryen Lord of Winterfell or King in the North. At best he might be interested in seating said Targaryen prince on the Iron Throne. And that thing does not stand in Winterfell.

If George wanted the will to play a role in the proclamation of a new King in the North he wouldn't have given it to people who can put the entire puzzle together.

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10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Since there was no will in the show it is clearly books. Robb gave his will to Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover and they went into the Neck and never came out again. It is quite clear that this will is right now with Howland Reed. And Howland Reed most likely has no interest in making Prince X Targaryen Lord of Winterfell or King in the North. At best he might be interested in seating said Targaryen prince on the Iron Throne. And that thing does not stand in Winterfell.

If George wanted the will to play a role in the proclamation of a new King in the North he wouldn't have given it to people who can put the entire puzzle together.

The Will isn't in the show but Robb's desire for Jon to be his heir was.  I feel like the show streamlined the story by doing away with the will and instead having the North spontaneously name Jon King of the North.  

Chances are that the Will in the book will be the reason behind Jon being declared King. On top of that, Robb was King and Howland was his bannerman.  Robb sends a Will to Howland Reed and you think he would sit on it and pretend it didn't exist?  No way. 

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I really want to believe that Arya is leading LF to believe he is 3 steps ahead and she is actually outsmarting him and playing along with his scheme to make him believe this but I'm just not sure. Arya has always been more of the fighter compared to Sansa who is very aware of the schemes of LF, so I'm conflicted... But hoping LF finally gets cornered and someone else is just a bit more clever than he is just once!

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2 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

The Will isn't in the show but Robb's desire for Jon to be his heir was.  I feel like the show streamlined the story by doing away with the will and instead having the North spontaneously name Jon King of the North.  

Chances are that the Will in the book will be the reason behind Jon being declared King. On top of that, Robb was King and Howland was his bannerman.  Robb sends a Will to Howland Reed and you think he would sit on it and pretend it didn't exist?  No way. 

Howland Reed did never swear fealty to either Lord or King Robb. And he obviously sits on the will because else said will would have long reached Castle Black by now.

Talisa was pregnant in the show. Robb had an heir. He had no need for Jon.

In the books, there are a lot of reason why another King in the North makes little sense.

1. Stannis is still alive.

2. Jon Snow is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

3. Jon Snow is dead. And people are not likely to want a zombie king.

4. There is little chance that Jon is going to get some sort of battle proclamation in the wake of the defeat over some evil anti-Northern enemies. Robb won a number of such victories, but the Boltons are very likely going to be put down by Stannis in the books.

5. Rickon Stark is still around in the books, and the Manderlys and others want to restore him as Lord of Winterfell. They could also crown him king, I guess, after Stannis is gone, but what would be the point.

6. In addition we also have Brandon, Sansa, and Arya Stark, all of which have better claims and/or the means to enforce those claims. The former would go for all three of them if they ever returned to Winterfell (as they did in the show) and the latter especially for Sansa if she ever showed up with 10,000 or 20,000 men from the Vale at her back.

6. Once people in the North finally grasp the true danger they are in their leaders won't fall over themselves to proclaim another secessionist king because that would be completely against their interest to getting food, supplies, men, etc. from the South.

Just take something as relatively uncontroversial and easy as buying food from the Vale, the Reach, or the Stormlands. A North under a Lord or a Lady of Winterfell who technically acknowledges the authority of the Iron Throne could easily enough approach people in those regions and be able to acquire some food. A King or Queen in the North would be a foreign ruler, and any subject of the Iron Throne (or some pretender laying claim to the Iron Throne) would essentially commit treason if he conducted business or supported such a person.

In that sense the Northmen would should themselves in the foot. Even more since they have no reason whatsoever to see Aegon or Daenerys or even Euron as their enemies. They are all potential allies against the Lannisters, Boltons, and Freys.

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Still, he does what bastards shouldn't do - cheat the main line out of their inheritance. Arya would never side with Jon against Sansa, Bran, or herself. These people know what bastards are. They are raised with a sense of entitlement and a very good grasp of the law. And Arya understands that even if she doesn't like it.

The idea that Arya would fault Sansa for actually wanting what's hers by right according to every law and custom in the Seven Kingdoms is ridiculous. They could have made her not liking Sansa because she is weak and incapable to do what needs to be done, etc. but faulting her for wanting what is hers (or Bran's) by right of birth is just silly.

Just as silly as Catelyn considering Jon a member of her family. He is not. And never was.

Not to mention - you know - that the book Arya most likely would want to put down Jon for his treason and oathbreaking. She did kill Dareon if you recall, sure as hell she wouldn't be all that willing to overlook Jon's own oathbreaking, especially not if didn't have the full picture. That is, unless she is a mindless Jon fan girl for no good reason - as she apparently is in the show.

She can certainly like him but just thinking he has a right to Winterfell and the kingship is just unbearable. He has not. She has. Bran has. Sansa has.

She would want to put him down the way Jon was content with the idea of her getting nightly raped by Ramsey Bolton just because she was not his family officially anymore.

In other words, any poor sucker that would attempt to execute Jon for his oathbreaking would meet a swift end by the end of Needle if she could help it.

Arya and Jon care for each much much more than for any stupid laws or property disputes. I really do wonder what gave you the idea that they would be willing to kill each other over anything. Every little thing in the text speaks loudly against it.

The only scenario in which Arya could entertain killing Jon would be if she became a 100% Faceless Man without past or feelings of her own, but in that case Winterfell, Sansa, Bran, Rickon, or any notion of honor would pass into irrelevancy long before Jon.

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7 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

She would want to put him down the way Jon was content with the idea of her getting nightly raped by Ramsey Bolton just because she was not his family officially anymore.

In other words, any poor sucker that would attempt to execute Jon for his oathbreaking would meet a swift end by the end of Needle if she could help it.

Arya and Jon care for each much much more than for any stupid laws or property disputes. I really do wonder what gave you the idea that they would be willing to kill each other over anything. Every little thing in the text speaks loudly against it.

The only scenario in which Arya could entertain killing Jon would be if she became a 100% Faceless Man without past or feelings of her own, but in that case Winterfell, Sansa, Bran, Rickon, or any notion of honor would pass into irrelevancy long before Jon.

Then why did Arya kill Dareon?

Why should Arya spare Jon's life if he betrayed everything she and House Stark and the North stand for and believe in?

The Starks keep their vows. They do not leave the Night's Watch.

A lot people are close as children - they don't have to later in life. Just look what happened to Tywin and Aerys. Or what's likely going to happen Jaime and Cersei. What Stannis did to Renly.

I'm not saying Arya will turn against Jon, I'm saying the Arya in the books would never stand for Jon daring to take Winterfell from Brandon, Sansa, and herself. She would consider any such actions on his part treason, and rightfully so. Never mind the rationalizations and justifications behind that. The Starks have an established line of succession. The elder brothers come before the younger brothers, and the sisters come behind the brothers. Bastards come at the very end or not at all. That's what they believe.

Sansa is not the one making a power grab in the show. Jon did. Back last season when he accepted this crown. He could have rejected it and handed it to Sansa. Winterfell belongs to her if Bran doesn't want it.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Then why did Arya kill Dareon?

Why should Arya spare Jon's life if he betrayed everything she and House Stark and the North stand for and believe in?

The Starks keep their vows. They do not leave the Night's Watch.

A lot people are close as children - they don't have to later in life. Just look what happened to Tywin and Aerys. Or what's likely going to happen Jaime and Cersei. What Stannis did to Renly.

I'm not saying Arya will turn against Jon, I'm saying the Arya in the books would never stand for Jon daring to take Winterfell from Brandon, Sansa, and herself. She would consider any such actions on his part treason, and rightfully so. Never mind the rationalizations and justifications behind that. The Starks have an established line of succession. The elder brothers come before the younger brothers, and the sisters come behind the brothers. Bastards come at the very end or not at all. That's what they believe.

Sansa is not the one making a power grab in the show. Jon did. Back last season when he accepted this crown. He could have rejected it and handed it to Sansa. Winterfell belongs to her if Bran doesn't want it.

You know why did she kill Dareon? Because Dareon was a dick whom she didn't know. OTOH Jon is her most favorite person in the world, the one of whom she still thinks sadly and fondly ("Needle was Jon Snow's smile", " Even Jon would never know Blind Beth, I bet . That made her sad.") even after all that befell her.

Then there is this early quote:

Quote

Lord Eddard Stark sighed. “My nine-year-old daughter is being armed from my own forge, and I know nothing of it. The Hand of the King is expected to rule the Seven Kingdoms, yet it seems I cannot even rule my own household. How is it that you come to own a sword, Arya? Where did you get this?”
 Arya chewed her lip and said nothing. She would not betray Jon, not even to their father.
 After a while, Father said, “I don’t suppose it matters, truly.” He looked down gravely at the sword in his hands. “This is no toy for children, least of all for a girl. What would Septa Mordane say if she knew you were playing with swords?”

A meaningless episode from childhood? Arguably. But it shows that Arya is willing to go against rules and authority to protect Jon from trouble.

Arya also believes that mother would not want her back because she is a killer and all around not a proper lady. Somehow, I don't believe she would judge Jon very harshly for not behaving a proper Stark... especially - as you say - she is aware he is not a Stark.

The bond they formed in Winterfell was based on their common outsider status. She was the ugly girl that failed to meet expectations, Jon was the bastard that shouldn't have existed at all. If Arya believes herself a killer that the rest of her family would reject, she will still hope to find acceptance in Jon. Similarly, she will overlook his grave mistakes, for which their family and society may damn him.

Quote

When at last she slept, she dreamed of home. The kingsroad wound its way past Winterfell on its way to the Wall, and Yoren had promised he'd leave her there with no one any wiser about who she'd been. She yearned to see her mother again, and Robb and Bran and Rickon . . . but it was Jon Snow she thought of most. She wished somehow they could come to the Wall before Winterfell, so Jon might muss up her hair and call her "little sister." She'd tell him, "I missed you," and he'd say it too at the very same moment, the way they always used to say things together. She would have liked that. She would have liked that better than anything.

Quote
"My lady?" Ned said at last. "You have a baseborn brother . . . Jon Snow?"
"He's with the Night's Watch on the Wall." Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn't care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair . . . "Jon looks like me, even though he's bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me 'little sister.'" Arya missed Jon most of all. Just saying his name made her sad. "How do you know about Jon?"

Edit:

Quote

He doesn't talk like he's lost his belly for fighting. "I know where we could go," Arya said. She still had one brother left. Jon will want me, even if no one else does. He'll call me "little sister" and muss my hair. It was a long way, though, and she didn't think she could get there by herself. She hadn't even been able to reach Riverrun. "We could go to the Wall."

By comparing Jon's and Dareon's place in Arya's thoughts you are comparing the incomparable. Jon is not some dickhead deserter, Jon is her dearest brother and confidant that loved her unconditionally and offered her solace in the world that found her lacking.

Btw, Sansa in the show is Lady of Winterfell. The titles of King in the North and Lord of Winterfell have become separate.

Edited by lojzelote

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From the way Arya took pleasure in insulting Sansa ("you used to like having nice things, they made you feel like you were better than everyone else") to the way she tormented Sansa by smiling while challenging her over something she likely felt lots of guilt for ("even now you're thinking about it"), I thought Arya came off as childish and cruel.  Plus the way she wanted to kill Glover and Royce was ridiculous.  I do not care for this Arya.  I do think though that she knows Baelish was watching her in the last scene and that she is going to use that as proof that Sansa needs to kill him, and Sansa will agree to it.  In this way Arya gets to continue feeling superior to Sansa and looks more "bad ass" - I don't like it at all.  I am actually rooting for Littlefinger here.

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Any plot point in Winterfell right now can be solved with the five words.

Talk.  The.  Fuck.  To.  Bran.

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14 hours ago, ImNoSer said:

they hinted at little finger doing this in previous episodes when he gives the maester a look after he said luwin kept a copy of every raven scroll.

If I remember correctly this was before Arya arrived at Winterfell, and apparently LF had no knowledge that she was on the way. So at the time he wasn't looking for that particular scroll for this particular scheme he's playing. Was he hoping to randomly find something, anything he could use to cause chaos? Or was he looking for something specific?

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