Jcat

A Wight for Cersei? Seriously?

227 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Ser Hyle said:

They'd probably be better off with hats in that weather too. They're all so lucky their moms have no idea.

And what about your galoshes young man?

I hope Jon and company had time to fashion some obsidian weapons on the voyage to Eastwatch.  Might come in handy if they run into White Walkers, especially given Jon is the only one wielding a Valerian steel blade I think.  Of course, Beric and Thoros have their flaming sword tricks, maybe they should teach that to the rest of their posse.  

More importantly I hope he sent the balance of the obsidean to Winterfell, just in case this foolish errand he is on turns out badly.  As it really should, but it probably wouldn't.  Well except for a few of his crew.

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9 hours ago, falcotron said:

What they should do is something that actually affects those circumstances, and attempts to solve the actual problems preventing an armistice and joint fight.

Bringing a wight does nothing. Both Dany and Cersei believe the threat is real and must be fought. Showing them a wight only solves problems that don't exist in the first place.

What are the actual problems?

1. Cersei (thinks she) can just let Dany and Jon fight the Night King, while she rebuilds her army and strengthens her position and can then just fight whichever side wins that Great War.

The solution here is to lay out the strategic situation. Cersei is unmistakably getting the better deal in the armistice. Dany is giving up the momentum in the war; Dany is risking her entire army while Cersei is risking only the Lannister remnants, while Cersei gets time to use her gold to rebuild her army; both sides get nice PR by saving the realm, but Cersei clearly gets more by being the queen sitting on the throne while they do it; etc. If Cersei can't see that, then frankly she's so insane that Dany is right, and they do have to take Cersei out before they can fight the Night King.

2. Neither queen trusts the other. Dany quite reasonably fears that if she takes her army and dragons north, Cersei will take advantage of that. Cersei may well think that Dany will stab her in the back if they sign an armistice (because that's what she'd do in Dany's position).

Solution: hostage exchange, Jaime for Viserion. Maybe you can't trust either Dany or Cersei to treat traditions based on millennia-old taboos as sacrosanct, you can trust Dany not to sacrifice her beloved baby and WMD, especially when her identity is heavily tied up in being Mother of Dragons, and you can trust Cersei not to sacrifice her beloved brother and baby-daddy, especially when her identity is heavily tied up in being Fucker of Brother Who's Bad-Ass Enough to Get Away With It. Sure, having one of their better generals and one of their three dragons sit out the Great War isn't ideal, but it's worth it to keep both sides on the field together.

What makes this so frustrating is that if they really did want to write in a wight hunt, they could have done it a few episodes earlier, when the problem Jon was unaccountably stuck on was convincing Dany that he isn't some crazy person who believes an 8000-year-old fairy tale for no reason, so a wight would have actually solved the problem at hand.

 

Something even more simple....They could have Jaime captured after FoF2.0 and brought him to the wall (with a Danny, Drogon and John) to see the AoD in a safe distance.

If the thing is dramatic appeal... they could have made AoD making a first attach to Eastwatch (just to test the defenses) and Danny, and John would go there to fight with a Dragon (and bring captured jaime)

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29 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

Something even more simple....They could have Jaime captured after FoF2.0 and brought him to the wall (with a Danny, Drogon and John) to see the AoD in a safe distance.

If the thing is dramatic appeal... they could have made AoD making a first attach to Eastwatch (just to test the defenses) and Danny, and John would go there to fight with a Dragon (and bring captured jaime)

Yeah that would be better than the current plan.  But it still misses the overall point--trying to convince Cersei to such an extent that she honestly agrees to cooperate and stop her scheming is a pipe dream!  Cersei cannot be trusted under any circumstances!  And Tyrion of all people should know this!  Which is one of the reasons I am so upset.

Jaime's influence over Cersei has virtually declined to the point of irrelevance.  Besides I think Cersei already in theory accepts the reality of the White Walkers and their army.  So additional  physical proof is pointless.  As Cersei said herself, a temporary armistice is in her interest while she rebuilds her forces, and having her two greatest rivals for power weaken and perhaps destroy each other is definately in her interest.

Daenerys and her forces should occupy an intermediate position, where she can support Jon and his forces against the Night King's attack, but also where she is secure from attack by Cersei's troops.  In any case, until the Golden Company arrives Cersei only has Euron and his fleet to conduct offensive operations.  

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8 hours ago, falcotron said:

Here's how it all ends:

Jaime kills Cersei, then sits on the throne to wait for whoever comes to claim the throne. But since almost everyone in Westeros is dead from starvation or plague, and even the Night King is slowed down (sure, he's got no significant opposition, but it takes a long time to animate millions of corpses), he starves long before anyone shows up. So the Night King animates Jaime as a wight, who gets up and offers him the throne the same way he did to Robert.

Over in Essos—where it turns out that the Long Night isn't much worse than the European "Little Ice Age"—there's a generation or two of adjustment and migration (Dragon's Bay being hit especially bad, because Dany's council were too busy trying to invent democracy from first principles to grow any food), but they've got plenty of land that's still livable, especially now that the Dothraki are no longer around making 60% of a continent unusable. And the Night King is actually pretty easy to trade with; the cultures that insist on sticking to cremation/burial/exposure instead of trading their corpses for Westerosi goods are quickly outcompeted. Soon, the cultures of Far East Essos are competing to discover a sea route to Westeros from the other side, which leads to a technological/exploration boom, and the world is on track for the equivalent of the Renaissance. And everyone lives reasonably happily ever after, except for the usual problems with people being people. All thanks to the Night King.

Ha ha - I could accept that.

Seriously, I have no idea why any logical person thinks Cersie is going to see a single cold zombie and go 'Wow, I have had a massive change of heart. I want to join with those Targyrean twats and help protect the realm now.'

She has a zombie knight, FFS! Why is she going to give a shit about a piss-ant little zombie from 1000s of miles away?

It's more likely she'll think fuck em, let the cold zombies take them out so i don't have to worry about them.

And is everyone forgetting that Jon is technically a Zombie and Beric also? Who is a good and bad zombie seems a bit arbitrary to me in this saga.

Actually, here is a plot twist - Qyburn wants the cold zombie for experimentation and then learns to really appreciate the Night Kings work because it's far more effective than his or the the Red Gods.

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1 hour ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

Something even more simple....They could have Jaime captured after FoF2.0 and brought him to the wall (with a Danny, Drogon and John) to see the AoD in a safe distance.

But you're still solving the problem that doesn't exist, instead of the one that does. Cersei already believes in the army of the dead. Proving that they exist doesn't change anything.

And if they'd captured Jaime, the problem is pretty much already solved. Hold him at the Wall, send Tyrion as a hostage exchange, and offer to swap back as soon as the army of the dead are defeated. Now Cersei has a reason to join in the armistice and the war.

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On 8/13/2017 at 10:29 PM, Jcat said:

Something incredible happened tonight a show I have loved and followed for seven seasons just crapped all over itself.  Or should I say D & D just crapped all over it.  The scheme Tyrion proposes for Jon and crew to go to Eastwatch, and get a Wight as a showroom model to convince Cersei to at least grant a temporary armistice--is colossally stupid!  The show runners have ruined Tyrion.  

Does Tyrion not know his sister by now?  Even if they get a sample, can they preserve it long enough to get it down south?  Would Cersei even believe this is what Tyrion and others claim it to be, and not some alchemist's trick?  And even if he could convince her she is as likely to make an alliance with the Night King as she is Daenerys.  Cersei has no scruples.

I have never been so disappointed in any TV show I have followed as I am tonight.

OP I agree whole heartedly with your rant.  And worst of all, Jon MUST go as well.  On the mission.  Good lord.  I know the reason he said he must, and it's still a major eye roll for me.  Just outfit them with dragon glass rather than go again and risk your life.  And worse yet, Jon knows the army beyond the wall.  Doesn't matter.  He is still in for the stupidest mission ever conceived.  

That, along with the seemingly forgotten moment than Drogon snuggled up to Jon Snow like a house pet out of nowhere and got barely any reaction, and the ridiculous Arya/Sansa/Little Finger hide and seek make for possibly the worst episode in the series.  

I also thought the nugget dropped by Sam's wife/girlfriend (forger here name, too lazy to google) was poorly thought out.  These fan service moments are ruining the realism of the world created in seasons passed.  

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It's funny reading these after I just watched the "leaked" episode 6 last night. Some will be happy to know that what you think should happen, does. Others will be happy to know that what you think is stupid, continues to be just as stupid :)

 

The way I view it, though, is that Tyrion is trying to do anything and everything possible to save his friends on one side and his family on the other. He hates his sister, but she's still his sister. However, he loves his brother still and knows that Jamie won't leave Cersei's side and will be stubborn about conceding anything, as he witnessed on the battlefield.

 

Focusing them on the WW, which he doesn't fully believe in anyhow (remember?) is his way of distracting them from killing each other a bit longer.

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18 minutes ago, ummester said:

She has a zombie knight, FFS! Why is she going to give a shit about a piss-ant little zombie from 1000s of miles away?

Well, she's seen how useful Robert Strong is to her. (I mean, I assume she has—we haven't seen him be useful, but we have seen how excited she was to get him.) So maybe she'll be jealous that someone else has thousands of them when she only has one.

18 minutes ago, ummester said:

And is everyone forgetting that Jon is technically a Zombie and Beric also? Who is a good and bad zombie seems a bit arbitrary to me in this saga.

Who is a good and bad human is just as arbitrary, and harder to figure out. I still don't know whether we were supposed to be rooting for the Sand Snakes, and I'm about 80% sure they weren't undead.

18 minutes ago, ummester said:

Actually, here is a plot twist - Qyburn wants the cold zombie for experimentation and then learns to really appreciate the Night Kings work because it's far more effective than his or the the Red Gods.

And then Qyburn can convince Cersei to sign the armistice and join the Great War, and while everyone is off fighting, he can use the cave paintings to replicate the Children's original work and turn Jaime into a new Night King for Cersei to marry and build her 1000-year legacy with. Or maybe even an 8000-year legacy! Brilliant! Fund it!

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, falcotron said:

Who is a good and bad human is just as arbitrary, and harder to figure out. I still don't know whether we were supposed to be rooting for the Sand Snakes, and I'm about 80% sure they weren't undead.

To be fair, the intersection of moral relativity and amorality is a bit fuzzy in GRRMs source material also.

Actually, perhaps D&D are geniuses! We live in a world where post modernism devolved into progressive secularism that has led to populations under threat of jihadists becoming more critical of Christianity than Islam - perhaps D&D are making an incredibly deep statement about the state of the world. I mean GoTs started so well, it had so much potential and, along the way, lost the plot entirely - I think it's one big critical piss take of Western civilisation, myself :D

But the Night King is still the hero, he is the Gandhi like figure, representing that civilisation was an little more than an interesting concept, a good idea, as Gandhi termed it.

Edited by ummester

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20 minutes ago, ummester said:

To be fair, the intersection of moral relativity and amorality is a bit fuzzy in GRRMs source material also.

The difference is that in the novels it usually feels intentional, while on the show, sometimes it doesn't.

If you ask the show, "Is Jaime, at heart, a good guy or a bad guy?" it answers "Yes."

If you ask AFfC, "Is Jaime, at heart, a good guy or a bad guy?" it answers "That's a dumb question, he's just a guy—here's all the stuff that motivates him, and whether you consider it justifiable or not is a question about your own moral system, not a question about Jaime."

Which, sure, is still a non-answer, but it's a much more interesting one (in fact, probably even more interesting than an actual answer would be).

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1 minute ago, falcotron said:

The difference is that in the novels it usually feels intentional, while on the show, sometimes it doesn't.

If you ask the show, "Is Jaime, at heart, a good guy or a bad guy?" it answers "Yes."

If you ask AFfC, "Is Jaime, at heart, a good guy or a bad guy?" it answers "That's a dumb question, he's just a guy—here's all the stuff that motivates him, and whether you consider it justifiable or not is a question about your own moral system, not a question about Jaime."

Which, sure, is still a non-answer, but it's a much more interesting one (in fact, probably even more interesting than an actual answer would be).

I agree but also would like to point out that some is down to the difference between books and shows. A lot more of 'you' needs to go into interpreting a book, so your own moral system has to play a larger part.

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40 minutes ago, falcotron said:

The difference is that in the novels it usually feels intentional, while on the show, sometimes it doesn't.

If you ask the show, "Is Jaime, at heart, a good guy or a bad guy?" it answers "Yes."

If you ask AFfC, "Is Jaime, at heart, a good guy or a bad guy?" it answers "That's a dumb question, he's just a guy—here's all the stuff that motivates him, and whether you consider it justifiable or not is a question about your own moral system, not a question about Jaime."

Which, sure, is still a non-answer, but it's a much more interesting one (in fact, probably even more interesting than an actual answer would be).

 

Show jaime is very clearly a bad guy to me, so they must be doing some things right to make him grey if you think he's clearly a good guy.

 

doesnt excuse mission wightpossible from being the single dumbest plan ever shown on television tho

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5 minutes ago, taliefer said:

Show jaime is very clearly a bad guy to me, so they must be doing some things right to make him grey if you think he's clearly a good guy.

You've missed the point: They answer "Yes, he is a good guy or a bad guy". They know it must be one of the two, but they don't know which. Whereas the books know it's neither of the two.

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7 hours ago, Jcat said:

Have to think it's a lot easier to capture a Wight, than a White Walker.  First of all how would you be able to restrain one given their superior strength?  And aren't all the White Walkers telepathically linked somehow?  If so it would make it doubly hard to get back south of the Wall to safely.

I agree it's difficult. I just dont understand what capturing one wight does. Cersei has Ser Robert Strong she knows it's possible to reanimate a corpse. Is she actually going to care? 

I can not imagine this being in the books in any way, shape or form

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9 minutes ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

I agree it's difficult. I just dont understand what capturing one wight does. Cersei has Ser Robert Strong she knows it's possible to reanimate a corpse. Is she actually going to care? 

I can not imagine this being in the books in any way, shape or form

Cersei is not going to care.  As you say she essentially has her own Wight already.  And she seemed to accept without question what Tyrion told Jaime about the Army of the Dead, because she listed them among the enemies she and Jaime would defeat.

Does anyone know which season/episode the Wight's hand arrived in King's Landing?  I have reviewed the first 3 seasons and I can't find the scene.  In season 1 episode 9 Commander Mormont sent Alistair Thorne with the hand to King's Landing.  In season 2 episode 2 a Raven arrives with a scroll from the Wall, which relates details of the assassination attempt by a Wight against Commander Mormont.  But I can't find where the hand actually shows up?

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1 hour ago, Jcat said:

Does anyone know which season/episode the Wight's hand arrived in King's Landing?  I have reviewed the first 3 seasons and I can't find the scene.  In season 1 episode 9 Commander Mormont sent Alistair Thorne with the hand to King's Landing.  In season 2 episode 2 a Raven arrives with a scroll from the Wall, which relates details of the assassination attempt by a Wight against Commander Mormont.  But I can't find where the hand actually shows up?

It doesnt in the show, but in the books Tyrion dismisses Thorne & the hand in Clash. The hand had decomposed by the time Thorne was seen if i recall.

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1 minute ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

The hand had decomposed by the time Thorne was seen if i recall.

Yes, I think Tyrion had left him waiting around too long before finally giving him audience, which meant by the time he finally got to show the hand, it was nothing more than bones.

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Do people know that the big KG guy is the reanimated corpse of the Mountain? I thought only Cersei and Qyburn knew that...Jaime might know, but Jon, Dany, and Co. don't know that Cersei has her own undead guy, right? The way Ellaria blanched when she saw him suggested to me that she was not previously aware that the Mountain was back.

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Why do they want to bring the Wight to KL?

Why not choose a neutral city like Oldtown?

Two advantages:

1.) Neither Cersei nor Dany must fear a trap

2.) The Archmaesters would realize the real threat and can send out ravens with the message, that the realm have to fight at the wall.

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It's fine, I'm sure the next episode will make up for it...

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