Jcat

A Wight for Cersei? Seriously?

227 posts in this topic

Here is the thing this has had a theme of learning from past mistakes and I think that it it Tyrion's turn to do so.  When Tyrion meets with Jamie in the dungeons of the Red Keep he says that Jamie has been 3 steps ahead of him the whole time he knows his sister almost as well as anyone else.  Do you think that he trusts her at all, he knows he has to be thinking 3 steps ahead of them he knows what kind of person his sister is.  He knows Cersei really only listens to one person and it is not Jamie that is Cersei and he already knows the lengths she will go to get what she wants and she wants he and Dany dead.  We already get the sense that Cersei is planning a red wedding type ambush at this meeting because she says that she needs to think like her father, Tyrion knows that a plan like this is not beyond Cersei so I am thinking he is already thinking of something to counter this.

The plan is not really to convince Cersei she is beyond reason, the plan is to convince someone with reason, Jamie.

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This is probably the books I am thinking of but wasn't this already tried with a wight's hand and Robert ignored it?  Also, I know this isn't the most practical thing but why hasn't this already been done or attempted.  Jon fails at attempting anyone that the Army of the Dead is real.  So, why hasn't any effort to show proof been done (outside of Sam at the citadel)? (yes I get it is dangerous and every time we have seen the dead they have ran through the living but at this point they're acting like humans cannot be creative in fighting the Wights).

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Cersei would probably have Qyburn find a way to make the dead obey her, she doesn't need a zombie to be preented to her for her to know the dead can walk. Cersei has a zombie for a Kingsguard ffs!

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It will be easy. The wight will hold the door for them.

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1 hour ago, Iotun said:

I just have to add to this thread, because for me, this was the stupidest the show has ever been, and the problems with this plan go far beyond whether or not Cercei will believe them.

Let's recap - why have our heroes decided on this plan to go and capture a Wight and return with it to King's Landing? Because apparently Jon is informed that the Knight's King is marching towards EastWatch, and there's no time to wait until the war is done to go and fight him, they need Dany's help to fight him now. But Dany cannot abandon the war, and needs to have an armistice with Cercei first, and convince her that the threat is real.

So given that we are incredibly pressured for time, what is the plan that our heroes come up with?

Well first of all, they need to have a council to discuss the news. Remember, Dany flies back, but Tyrion cannot do so, so obviously we need to wait for him to sail back from King's Landing to Dragonstone in order to have the meeting.

Then after we've made the decision to rush back and capture the Wight we need to... wait for Davos to smuggle Tyrion back to King's Landing to have a 10 minute conversation with his brother, get Gendry, then sail back to Dragonstone.

At which point, Jon, who is King in the North and lords over thousands of men, will sail on his own with an untrained blacksmith, an old man, and Jorah Mormont, on to Eastwatch. There, together with another 4 men, they will walk out north of the wall, with no horses and no supplies, against an army of tens of thousands of dead zombies, that they have no idea what place they are in, and where they will somehow capture one of the zombies (how? what it the plan to keep the thing immobile?). After they capture the zombie, the seven of them plan to walk back to EastWatch.

By the way, remember at the end of Season 1 where an expedition North of the Wall was a big deal that involved most of the manpower of the Night's Watch, and took about 3 seasons worth for the entire plot to be resolved?

Then after they've captured this zombie, and assuming our 7 heroes haven't been killed by the ravenous army of a hundred thousand zombies, they will sail back from EastWatch to King's Landing, Dany (who's apparently just sitting around doing nothing for all the months if not years this whole plan will take) will sail back from Dragonstone, they will have a meeting with Cercei where they will show her the zombie. Then if things turn out well, Dany will march back to the North, where apparently the Night's King is still waiting before attacking East Watch.

This plan, which involve at least two treks along the entire length of Westeros, multiple trips from Dragonstone to King's Landing and back, and an expedition into the unknown beyond the wall, is what the brilliant and cunnint Tyrion came up with in order to save time given how urgent the situation is.

Here's what bothers me - I don't mind dragons, and magic, and the fantastical elements, given that the plot makes sense in the context of the fantastical elements established. What bothers me is, given the context of the setting, when characters do actions that make no sense given that context, and which in reality they never would. And nobody in the context of the story would actually come up with this plan.

I remember watching the commentaries for season 4, at the scene where Brienne fights the Hound, and I'm sure I remember D&D were commenting that part of how they decide how to deviate from the book, is when they imagine what would happen if two characters who are separated in the books were to meet. So the fight with Brienne and the Hound happened because they felt 'Wouldn't it be cool if we could get to see these two characters fight and find out who would win?

So what annoys me about this episode, is that clearly, the plot is not being set up to have internal consistency with the world, or the characters, but to answer fanboyish 'What if' questions. D&D think it would be cool if the Hound and Jorah Mormont met together and fought a White Walker, so by God, they'll find a way to make it so. The show is constructed to think up of 'cool' set-pieces, and then things are made up to make those set pieces possible, no matter how non-sensical given the context of the characters or the setting.

Jorah Mormont, who is in love with Dany, and has just survived greyscale and managed to return to her, would never just abandon her to go off onto an expedition north of the wall. But the cool set-piece demands that he do so, so he will.

Jon Snow, King in the North, and ex-commander of the Night's Watch, would never go on an expedition North of the Wall with 7 men and no supplies. But the cool set-piece demands that he do so, so he will.

Remember that the Brotherhood without Banners is a 'brotherhood' of probably tens if not hundreds of men? But everybody in the brotherhood disappears into thin air without explanation, with miraculously only the 3 named members remaining, who just so happen to be captured by Tormund, just at the time that Jon happens to want to go North.

It's all so... stupid. What made Game of Thrones interesting was the complex 3-dimensional characters, and the de-construction of fantasy tropes given the brutal reality of the world. Remember for example in Season 1, when Jorah Mormont fights the bloodrider, and defeats him because of the protection afforded to him by his armor? Despite the typical fantasy cliché of the highly skilled steppe warrior, we are shown how in real life, the practicalities of armor and medieval combat are effective in a real fight. Now we get the cringe-worthy line from Jaime about how 'Now I've seen the Dothraki fight, no army in the seven kingdoms can defeat them' (Why?). But now everything, from the Dothraki to the individual characters, has been devolved to one-dimensional fantasy clichés that GRRM tried so hard to elevate his books from, and the plot has devolved to a series of nonsensical actions to go from one action set-piece to another.

Yes to all of this!

When the show started getting away from the books, it bothered me a bit but sometime last season or the one before, I just told myself it's a slightly different story, it's D&D's version of it. When they did little things that didn't make sense, that's OK, it's TV, I expect it to be dumbed down a bit.
This whole plot doesn't make any sense though, not in the real world, not in their world, not in any world. I know everyone has issues with teleportation and timing in the recent episodes, but if Cersei isn't either super pregnant by the time they get to KL with a White Walker that will just be absurd (unless she is faking it, then that makes sense and that's fine.) 

At this point, I am on team White Walker. Just purge all of Westeros and let's start from scratch. 

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I can forgive the show for many things, but the biggest offense was how they completely torpedoed Tyrion's character, one of my favourite characters on the show. It breaks my heart how this character, who had alot of the best scenes in the previous seasons, was dumbed down to this. 

I mean, the moment where he meets Jaime in the crypt had SO much POTENTIAL ..... But FWOMP they completely shat on it.

At the moment am just watching the show for the action set pieces which is where they obviously are focusing on.

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2 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

Worst idea ever. Worst plan ever. Worst writing ever. Worse than Dorne. Worse than Bolton marriage. Worse than wolverine. No, maybe not worse but as bad as. 

you can find fanfiction online that's ten times better writing than this episode. 

and yet you'll watch anyway. 

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2 hours ago, Iotun said:

I just have to add to this thread, because for me, this was the stupidest the show has ever been, and the problems with this plan go far beyond whether or not Cercei will believe them.

Let's recap - why have our heroes decided on this plan to go and capture a Wight and return with it to King's Landing? Because apparently Jon is informed that the Knight's King is marching towards EastWatch, and there's no time to wait until the war is done to go and fight him, they need Dany's help to fight him now. But Dany cannot abandon the war, and needs to have an armistice with Cercei first, and convince her that the threat is real.

So given that we are incredibly pressured for time, what is the plan that our heroes come up with?

Well first of all, they need to have a council to discuss the news. Remember, Dany flies back, but Tyrion cannot do so, so obviously we need to wait for him to sail back from King's Landing to Dragonstone in order to have the meeting.

Then after we've made the decision to rush back and capture the Wight we need to... wait for Davos to smuggle Tyrion back to King's Landing to have a 10 minute conversation with his brother, get Gendry, then sail back to Dragonstone.

At which point, Jon, who is King in the North and lords over thousands of men, will sail on his own with an untrained blacksmith, an old man, and Jorah Mormont, on to Eastwatch. There, together with another 4 men, they will walk out north of the wall, with no horses and no supplies, against an army of tens of thousands of dead zombies, that they have no idea what place they are in, and where they will somehow capture one of the zombies (how? what it the plan to keep the thing immobile?). After they capture the zombie, the seven of them plan to walk back to EastWatch.

By the way, remember at the end of Season 1 where an expedition North of the Wall was a big deal that involved most of the manpower of the Night's Watch, and took about 3 seasons worth for the entire plot to be resolved?

Then after they've captured this zombie, and assuming our 7 heroes haven't been killed by the ravenous army of a hundred thousand zombies, they will sail back from EastWatch to King's Landing, Dany (who's apparently just sitting around doing nothing for all the months if not years this whole plan will take) will sail back from Dragonstone, they will have a meeting with Cercei where they will show her the zombie. Then if things turn out well, Dany will march back to the North, where apparently the Night's King is still waiting before attacking East Watch.

This plan, which involve at least two treks along the entire length of Westeros, multiple trips from Dragonstone to King's Landing and back, and an expedition into the unknown beyond the wall, is what the brilliant and cunnint Tyrion came up with in order to save time given how urgent the situation is.

Here's what bothers me - I don't mind dragons, and magic, and the fantastical elements, given that the plot makes sense in the context of the fantastical elements established. What bothers me is, given the context of the setting, when characters do actions that make no sense given that context, and which in reality they never would. And nobody in the context of the story would actually come up with this plan.

I remember watching the commentaries for season 4, at the scene where Brienne fights the Hound, and I'm sure I remember D&D were commenting that part of how they decide how to deviate from the book, is when they imagine what would happen if two characters who are separated in the books were to meet. So the fight with Brienne and the Hound happened because they felt 'Wouldn't it be cool if we could get to see these two characters fight and find out who would win?

So what annoys me about this episode, is that clearly, the plot is not being set up to have internal consistency with the world, or the characters, but to answer fanboyish 'What if' questions. D&D think it would be cool if the Hound and Jorah Mormont met together and fought a White Walker, so by God, they'll find a way to make it so. The show is constructed to think up of 'cool' set-pieces, and then things are made up to make those set pieces possible, no matter how non-sensical given the context of the characters or the setting.

Jorah Mormont, who is in love with Dany, and has just survived greyscale and managed to return to her, would never just abandon her to go off onto an expedition north of the wall. But the cool set-piece demands that he do so, so he will.

Jon Snow, King in the North, and ex-commander of the Night's Watch, would never go on an expedition North of the Wall with 7 men and no supplies. But the cool set-piece demands that he do so, so he will.

Remember that the Brotherhood without Banners is a 'brotherhood' of probably tens if not hundreds of men? But everybody in the brotherhood disappears into thin air without explanation, with miraculously only the 3 named members remaining, who just so happen to be captured by Tormund, just at the time that Jon happens to want to go North.

It's all so... stupid. What made Game of Thrones interesting was the complex 3-dimensional characters, and the de-construction of fantasy tropes given the brutal reality of the world. Remember for example in Season 1, when Jorah Mormont fights the bloodrider, and defeats him because of the protection afforded to him by his armor? Despite the typical fantasy cliché of the highly skilled steppe warrior, we are shown how in real life, the practicalities of armor and medieval combat are effective in a real fight. Now we get the cringe-worthy line from Jaime about how 'Now I've seen the Dothraki fight, no army in the seven kingdoms can defeat them' (Why?). But now everything, from the Dothraki to the individual characters, has been devolved to one-dimensional fantasy clichés that GRRM tried so hard to elevate his books from, and the plot has devolved to a series of nonsensical actions to go from one action set-piece to another.

Sorry to no contribute anything to the conversation, but I just wanted to say that I agree 100% with this post. You literally summed up all my thoughts on this plot, great post.

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40 minutes ago, a7_mad1991 said:

I can forgive the show for many things, but the biggest offense was how they completely torpedoed Tyrion's character, one of my favourite characters on the show. It breaks my heart how this character, who had alot of the best scenes in the previous seasons, was dumbed down to this. 

I mean, the moment where he meets Jaime in the crypt had SO much POTENTIAL ..... But FWOMP they completely shat on it.

At the moment am just watching the show for the action set pieces which is where they obviously are focusing on.

This this and this, I feel exactly the same, just the big action scenes are what im watching it for now. Also the dragons too.

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Posted (edited)

57 minutes ago, The Smuggler said:

and yet you'll watch anyway. 

Yeah, I watched pretty little liars too. And at this point that's almost the same category.

Edited by RhaenysB

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2 hours ago, L’Age d’or said:

Cersei would probably have Qyburn find a way to make the dead obey her, she doesn't need a zombie to be preented to her for her to know the dead can walk. Cersei has a zombie for a Kingsguard ffs!

Indeed! Good point!

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4 hours ago, Iotun said:

I just have to add to this thread, because for me, this was the stupidest the show has ever been, and the problems with this plan go far beyond whether or not Cercei will believe them.

Let's recap - why have our heroes decided on this plan to go and capture a Wight and return with it to King's Landing? Because apparently Jon is informed that the Knight's King is marching towards EastWatch, and there's no time to wait until the war is done to go and fight him, they need Dany's help to fight him now. But Dany cannot abandon the war, and needs to have an armistice with Cercei first, and convince her that the threat is real.

So given that we are incredibly pressured for time, what is the plan that our heroes come up with?

Well first of all, they need to have a council to discuss the news. Remember, Dany flies back, but Tyrion cannot do so, so obviously we need to wait for him to sail back from King's Landing to Dragonstone in order to have the meeting.

Then after we've made the decision to rush back and capture the Wight we need to... wait for Davos to smuggle Tyrion back to King's Landing to have a 10 minute conversation with his brother, get Gendry, then sail back to Dragonstone.

At which point, Jon, who is King in the North and lords over thousands of men, will sail on his own with an untrained blacksmith, an old man, and Jorah Mormont, on to Eastwatch. There, together with another 4 men, they will walk out north of the wall, with no horses and no supplies, against an army of tens of thousands of dead zombies, that they have no idea what place they are in, and where they will somehow capture one of the zombies (how? what it the plan to keep the thing immobile?). After they capture the zombie, the seven of them plan to walk back to EastWatch.

By the way, remember at the end of Season 1 where an expedition North of the Wall was a big deal that involved most of the manpower of the Night's Watch, and took about 3 seasons worth for the entire plot to be resolved?

Then after they've captured this zombie, and assuming our 7 heroes haven't been killed by the ravenous army of a hundred thousand zombies, they will sail back from EastWatch to King's Landing, Dany (who's apparently just sitting around doing nothing for all the months if not years this whole plan will take) will sail back from Dragonstone, they will have a meeting with Cercei where they will show her the zombie. Then if things turn out well, Dany will march back to the North, where apparently the Night's King is still waiting before attacking East Watch.

This plan, which involve at least two treks along the entire length of Westeros, multiple trips from Dragonstone to King's Landing and back, and an expedition into the unknown beyond the wall, is what the brilliant and cunnint Tyrion came up with in order to save time given how urgent the situation is.

Here's what bothers me - I don't mind dragons, and magic, and the fantastical elements, given that the plot makes sense in the context of the fantastical elements established. What bothers me is, given the context of the setting, when characters do actions that make no sense given that context, and which in reality they never would. And nobody in the context of the story would actually come up with this plan.

I remember watching the commentaries for season 4, at the scene where Brienne fights the Hound, and I'm sure I remember D&D were commenting that part of how they decide how to deviate from the book, is when they imagine what would happen if two characters who are separated in the books were to meet. So the fight with Brienne and the Hound happened because they felt 'Wouldn't it be cool if we could get to see these two characters fight and find out who would win?

So what annoys me about this episode, is that clearly, the plot is not being set up to have internal consistency with the world, or the characters, but to answer fanboyish 'What if' questions. D&D think it would be cool if the Hound and Jorah Mormont met together and fought a White Walker, so by God, they'll find a way to make it so. The show is constructed to think up of 'cool' set-pieces, and then things are made up to make those set pieces possible, no matter how non-sensical given the context of the characters or the setting.

Jorah Mormont, who is in love with Dany, and has just survived greyscale and managed to return to her, would never just abandon her to go off onto an expedition north of the wall. But the cool set-piece demands that he do so, so he will.

Jon Snow, King in the North, and ex-commander of the Night's Watch, would never go on an expedition North of the Wall with 7 men and no supplies. But the cool set-piece demands that he do so, so he will.

Remember that the Brotherhood without Banners is a 'brotherhood' of probably tens if not hundreds of men? But everybody in the brotherhood disappears into thin air without explanation, with miraculously only the 3 named members remaining, who just so happen to be captured by Tormund, just at the time that Jon happens to want to go North.

It's all so... stupid. What made Game of Thrones interesting was the complex 3-dimensional characters, and the de-construction of fantasy tropes given the brutal reality of the world. Remember for example in Season 1, when Jorah Mormont fights the bloodrider, and defeats him because of the protection afforded to him by his armor? Despite the typical fantasy cliché of the highly skilled steppe warrior, we are shown how in real life, the practicalities of armor and medieval combat are effective in a real fight. Now we get the cringe-worthy line from Jaime about how 'Now I've seen the Dothraki fight, no army in the seven kingdoms can defeat them' (Why?). But now everything, from the Dothraki to the individual characters, has been devolved to one-dimensional fantasy clichés that GRRM tried so hard to elevate his books from, and the plot has devolved to a series of nonsensical actions to go from one action set-piece to another.

Thank you Lotun!  This is exactly what I was objecting to and so much more!  Bravo!

 

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8 hours ago, Edward Teach said:

And that's not all, the dumbest part is that the expedition party consists of seven people who go beyond the wall by foot and with no horses! Do they realize they're going to confront a hoard of hundreds of zombies? How the fuck do they expect to survive that?

 

This whole development of the plot is mind-blowingly stupid.

Lol I was literally laughing last night when I saw this.  Also @lotun great post, summed up all my thoughts and more.  D&D just can't help themselves.  It is ridiculous.

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Oh dear, more complaints about a plot point that almost certainly comes from GRRM.

Capturing a wight makes perfect sense. They have gone north of the wall before. The difficulty of doing it will become apparent soon enough. They probably don't plan to simply walk into the middle of the army.

Of course Cersei's first and last concern will be her own skin.

Oh and Euron is sure to be an even bigger asshole in the next two episodes.

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I am really comforted to see it was not just me who felt massively letdown by the show last night.

I know there have been hamhanded moments throughout the course of the show.  I am sure book readers know this better than anyone.  But last night's episode crossed some kind of metaphorical Rubicon of hamhandedness for me.  It began with that exasperatingly unexplicable 300 meter underwater rescue swim of Bronn carrying Jaime.  And ended with the Saving Private Ryan-esque mission impossible to live capture a Wight and Fed-ex it a 1,000 leagues south to Cersei, who won't give a damn.

I will still watch the show.  But on the whole it seems to me this season D & D are just tired of the whole enterprise and are just rushing to the exits.  Unfortunately, it seems it does not particularly matter how they get there.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, hallam said:

Oh dear, more complaints about a plot point that almost certainly comes from GRRM.

Capturing a wight makes perfect sense. They have gone north of the wall before. The difficulty of doing it will become apparent soon enough. They probably don't plan to simply walk into the middle of the army.

Of course Cersei's first and last concern will be her own skin.

Oh and Euron is sure to be an even bigger asshole in the next two episodes.

It may come from GRRM, I'm thinking the dead bodies that Jon stowed away at Castle Black probably have something to do with providing proof in ASOIAF. But taking that and twisting it to make no sense is weird. I'm one of those that is fine with just going along with it for fun's sake, but no supplies and no horses was a bit much. What exactly are they going to use to capture the wight if they don't have supplies or a horse to drag it back or could they have even borrowed Bran's old sled so they could tie one down and drag it along? 

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40 minutes ago, hallam said:

Oh dear, more complaints about a plot point that almost certainly comes from GRRM.

Capturing a wight makes perfect sense. They have gone north of the wall before. The difficulty of doing it will become apparent soon enough. They probably don't plan to simply walk into the middle of the army.

Of course Cersei's first and last concern will be her own skin.

Oh and Euron is sure to be an even bigger asshole in the next two episodes.

In the book's it's already been established that Wights cannot survive south of the wall. The hand of the wight that was captured in the first book was shipped off to King's Landing to show it to the King, and it 'died off' after a certain distance from the wall. I don't remember who it was that was sent to take it there, I seem to recall it was Alistair Thorne, but I am fairly confident that whoever it was returned, and that Jon would be aware of the fact. So no, this is not a plot point from the book. I also seriously doubt that in the books the Hound would join up with the brotherhood (who have no reason to become buddies with him and are now led by Lady Stoneheart),or Jorah Mormont join up with Jon, or that anything from this ridiculous plot will take place.

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Posted (edited)

38 minutes ago, Mother of Mini Dragons said:

It may come from GRRM, I'm thinking the dead bodies that Jon stowed away at Castle Black probably have something to do with providing proof in ASOIAF. But taking that and twisting it to make no sense is weird. I'm one of those that is fine with just going along with it for fun's sake, but no supplies and no horses was a bit much. What exactly are they going to use to capture the wight if they don't have supplies or a horse to drag it back or could they have even borrowed Bran's old sled so they could tie one down and drag it along? 

 

I largely agree with the copious criticisms of this plot development from other posters here. They have, to put it mildly, "lost the plot" to a great extent with this one -not to mention the poor execution and far too rapid pacing of this sudden and rather boneheaded decision to go on a "Wight Hunt" to convince Cersei.

However if a disabled boy and his motley crew of Hodor, Meera and her brother can venture deep beyond the Wall, then I fail to see why the new "(not so) magnificent seven" cannot do so.

How exactly were they going to convince a large group of men, other than the small fellowship of die-hard believers joined by others who have given up caring about their lives, to go North (diverting plenty of much-needed resources at a time when folks are preparing for the longest winter in aeons) on a ridiculous suicide mission to try and awaken the people of Westeros from their stupor, so that they can "see and believe" in an enemy that hardly anybody dares to imagine ever could exist?

When a real conflict for the throne is being fought?

Edited by Krishtotter

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Here is what I can't reconcile:

 

My understanding was that the wights are, in fact, dead.  The wight walkers control the corpses in a drone sense.....they have the ability to control hundreds of wights so each walker would have hundreds of channels of control.  That's why they're called wight walkers, not lieutenants to the Night King or what have you....

In the case of the wights in Mormont's chambers, I suppose a walker could have controlled those wights from the other side of the wall, and the wights could actually have been trojan horses set on Castle Black for that purpose.

So if I have the mechanism right by which the corpses are animated, why would a walker put on a show with a wight for the consumption of Cersei, if he could even control the wight from that distance?  If walkers could control the wights from such a distance, why would they even exposes themselves to battle?  Put simply, what makes that wight not just a lifeless corpse when presented?

If any bookreaders could weigh in and help me make sense of this (in the case where reanimated corpses make any sense at all, of course), I'd appreciate it.

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