Jcat

A Wight for Cersei? Seriously?

227 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

It is colossally stupid on so many levels.

Did someone already mention that obviously The (damn) King in the North is absolutely needed in this seven man strike team? My god, this is a high school level writing.

Edited by Dragons 7th Eye

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Having never read the books I couldn't really comprehend what the fuss was about when there was talk that the show departed from them. But now I see clear as day the difference from the first 4 seasons and the shambles we have now. I will continue to watch it because I am far too invested in it but the ridiculous plot ploys like these are wrecking what started off as an amazingly complex series. I enjoy the mega scenes as much as the fan boy out there but the characters seem to have lost all their complexity. This expedition makes no sense and if by some way it succeeds it will make no overall difference as Cersei will not co-operate. What a waste.

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And the funniest thing about this ridiculos plan is that it comes from a man who once recieved a similar token from the North while serving as Hand for another king. Convincing Cersei? He should know better how hands and their kings/queens react to such proofs.

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6 hours ago, Iotun said:

 t's all so... stupid. What made Game of Thrones interesting was the complex 3-dimensional characters, and the de-construction of fantasy tropes given the brutal reality of the world. Remember for example in Season 1, when Jorah Mormont fights the bloodrider, and defeats him because of the protection afforded to him by his armor? Despite the typical fantasy cliché of the highly skilled steppe warrior, we are shown how in real life, the practicalities of armor and medieval combat are effective in a real fight. Now we get the cringe-worthy line from Jaime about how 'Now I've seen the Dothraki fight, no army in the seven kingdoms can defeat them' (Why?). But now everything, from the Dothraki to the individual characters, has been devolved to one-dimensional fantasy clichés that GRRM tried so hard to elevate his books from, and the plot has devolved to a series of nonsensical actions to go from one action set-piece to another.

 

Well, Robert Baratheon actually said the same to Cersei regarding the Dothraki in season 1:

 

Quote

"I do know this: If the Targaryen girl convinces her horselord husband to invade and the Dothraki horde crosses the Narrow Sea . . . we won't be able to stop them," he says. "Let's say Viserys Targaryen lands with 40,000 Dothraki screamers at his back. We hole up in our castles. A wise move. Only a fool would meet the Dothraki in an open field."

 

I assume we are to believe that the character of Robert Baratheon knows what he's talking about.

Otherwise, a very well-written post!

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12 minutes ago, Krishtotter said:

 

I largely agree with the copious criticisms of this plot development from other posters here. They have, to put it mildly, "lost the plot" to a great extent with this one -not to mention the terribly poor execution and pacing of this sudden and boneheaded decision to go on a "Wight Hunt".

However if a disabled boy and his motley crew of Hodor, Meera and her brother can venture deep beyond the Wall, then I fail to see why the new "(not so) magnificent seven" cannot do so.

How exactly were they going to convince a large group of men, other than the small fellowship of die-hard believers joined by others who have given up caring about their lives, to go North (diverting plenty of much-needed resources at a time when folks are preparing for the longest winter in aeons) on a ridiculous suicide mission to try and awaken the people of Westeros from their stupor, so that they can "see and believe" in an enemy that hardly anybody dares to imagine ever could exist?

When a real conflict for the throne is being fought?

Let me grant you that capturing a Wight to have proof to show to the rest of the Westerosi lords is a good idea.

Why wasn't that one of King's Jon's first commands, sending a few hundred well supplied horsemen to the North to scout for the first Wight in sight and bring it back... before sailing off to Dragonstone, or even getting the summons from Daenerys? And why bother with convincing Cersei anyway? A Jon + Dany alliance apparently has the Northern houses, the Vale, the Reach, Dorne, the Unsullied, the Dothraki, 3 dragons, and I'm pretty sure they could easily convince the lords of the Stormlands given the death of the Baratheons (especially with Gendry, who could be legitimized by Dany and married off to the daughter of some important and ambitious Stormlands house), as well as the religious common folk who must be pissed off at Cercei for blowing up the sept of Bailor, and the apparently very popular High Sparrow. At this point, the fact that Cercei is 'queen' is merely a formality.

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5 minutes ago, Europebound01 said:

Having never read the books I couldn't really comprehend what the fuss was about when there was talk that the show departed from them. But now I see clear as day the difference from the first 4 seasons and the shambles we have now. I will continue to watch it because I am far too invested in it but the ridiculous plot ploys like these are wrecking what started off as an amazingly complex series. I enjoy the mega scenes as much as the fan boy out there but the characters seem to have lost all their complexity. This expedition makes no sense and if by some way it succeeds it will make no overall difference as Cersei will not co-operate. What a waste.

 

Well said. 

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7 hours ago, jezzie_bell said:

Dumbest plan ever.

What are they planning on bringing whitey back with?  A pair of handcuffs, perhaps?

At least they have dragonglass weapons, right?  They were mining, but the blacksmith just got there, so how does that work?

Also, when is Jon planning on telling Jorah about his fancy sword?

You dont need a blacksmith for working with obsidian, im mexican and our ancestors used it for making weapons, the obsidian must be punched in order to make it sharp.

What im thinking is that they wont necessarily need the obsidian, they are chasing wights not white walkers, only jon is equiped to deal with those, the others should run...

And gwndry has the best weapon against wights

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I think there is a trend in show business..

If you are writing a series, just put a lot of effort in the first seasons.... after you capture your audience and get people "hooked" who cares to make sense and have endings that make sense.  You already got you money.... just try to wrap up things , allow you to be sloppy and thats it

If you are making a movie, have some good actors or nice animation, and REALLY GOOD previews!  now a lot of people will got to the theaters and will watch it anyway.

 

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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

I think there is a trend in show business..

If you are writing a series, just put a lot of effort in the first seasons.... after you capture your audience and get people "hooked" who cares to make sense and have endings that make sense.  You already got you money.... just try to wrap up things , allow you to be sloppy and thats it

If you are making a movie, have some good actors or nice animation, and REALLY GOOD previews!  now a lot of people will got to the theaters and will watch it anyway.

 

 

Or........the showrunners signed up way back in 2006 to adapt books as opposed to coming up with their own material.

George RR Martin - suffering from the most chronic and devastating case of writer's block ever to afflict humankind (aka, he got himself in too deep and has bitten off more than he can chew :rolleyes:) - decided to abdicate his side of the bargain: leaving D&D to struggle on with some sketchy plot points and an endgame bereft of Martin's artistic abilities. 

And it shows.

Edited by Krishtotter

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1 hour ago, hallam said:

Oh dear, more complaints about a plot point that almost certainly comes from GRRM.

Yup, there's a fair chance of this. I'm betting a good chunk of 'fanfiction' will be by GRRM when all is said and done.

 

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Posted (edited)

17 hours ago, Jcat said:

Something incredible happened tonight a show I have loved and followed for seven seasons just crapped all over itself.  Or should I say D & D just crapped all over it.  The scheme Tyrion proposes for Jon and crew to go to Eastwatch, and get a Wight as a showroom model to convince Cersei to at least grant a temporary armistice--is colossally stupid!  The show runners have ruined Tyrion.  

Does Tyrion not know his sister by now?  Even if they get a sample, can they preserve it long enough to get it down south?  Would Cersei even believe this is what Tyrion and others claim it to be, and not some alchemist's trick?  And even if he could convince her she is as likely to make an alliance with the Night King as she is Daenerys.  Cersei has no scruples.

I have never been so disappointed in any TV show I have followed as I am tonight.

Yep, I was spoiled more than half a year ago about that wight for Cersei plot and I didn't believe it until the leaks started to become true. This is a wight for Cersei season. ALso

there will be a 

Spoiler

wight exhibition/wight circus

 

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, Daske said:

Yup, there's a fair chance of this. I'm betting a good chunk of 'fanfiction' will be by GRRM when all is said and done.

 

I agree, only Martin is liable to execute it in a superior fashion. With better dialogue, pacing, characterization and an eye for logical consistency - if he ever gets there. I'm convinced, for instance, that the annulment idea comes straight from GRRM rather than the polygamy stuff some folks are cooking up.

Edited by Krishtotter

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Posted (edited)

I wonder how could Cersei believe them.

I mean, first of all,she is crazy. Everyone knows she has burnt the Sept with the Queen, the Hand of the KIng (her uncle), her cousin, many other nobles, the HS...even if she says it was just "an accident".

an important part of her army was roasted. What's the point?

She has a pet called "The mountain". Isn't he Mountain very similar to a wight?

Then, how can a wight be proof of a WW invasion who control an army of wights?

Wouldn't the flames be more convincing? Or, just forget about her.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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12 minutes ago, Krishtotter said:

 

Or........the showrunners signed up way back in 2006 to adapt books as opposed to coming up with their own material.

George RR Martin - suffering from the most chronic and devastating case of writer's block ever to afflict humankind (aka, he got himself in too deep and has bitten off more than he can chew :rolleyes:) - decided to abdicate his side of the bargain: leaving D&D to struggle on with some sketchy plot points and an endgame bereft of Martin's artistic abilities. 

And it shows.

I think it's both. D$D can't write anything good, and Martin seemingly can't write at all anymore. 

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The Avengers Masterplan

 

Step 1 - Capture a Wight

Step 2 - Get Cersei and the Wight in the same room

Step 3 - Stealthly leave the room and lock the door

Step 4 - Cersei gets killed by the Wight

Step 5 - Claim that Cersei's death was a tragic accident

Step 6 - Mobilize the commoners to avenge their queen against Army of the Dead

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14 minutes ago, Krishtotter said:

 

Or........the showrunners signed up way back in 2006 to adapt books as opposed to coming up with their own material.

George RR Martin - suffering from the most chronic and devastating case of writer's block ever to afflict humankind (aka, he got himself in too deep and has bitten off more than he can chew :rolleyes:) - decided to abdicate his side of the bargain: leaving D&D to struggle on with some sketchy plot points and an endgame bereft of Martin's artistic abilities. 

And it shows.

I think is much more than this. Any high school kid that writes fan fiction would be more careful with their writing. I am sure D&D and the writers could write better. However, I am absolutely convinced that they don't care.  To have Jaime sinking in a deep lake just to appear 100 yards away...   To create a stupid plot of a wight for Cersei, To have Danny saying that she is great, she doesn't want to kill anyone, but kneel or be burned alive... To get Arya being stabbed 3 times, (with a knife twist) and be jumping roofs the next day are example of sloppiness, layzness and lack of respect for viewers.

I am sure they can write better, but I really think that they don't care.

 

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Just now, Krishtotter said:

I agree, only Martin is liable to execute it in a superior fashion. With better dialogue, pacing, characterization and with an eye to logical consistency 

But GRRM by this point seems to have given up the ghost. His writing is not superior if it doesn't exist. The show is dealing with plot threads he left dangling that he himself is unable to finish.

At best the books have already declined in quality. I think he has the rough plot lines (which the show will mostly follow) but he's got himself into a mess. The details you mention - the dialogue, pacing, characterization and logical consistency... to make that work in print I think is beyond him now. And if by some miracle we do make it to the end in book form I think it will pop this myth that he has some so-much-better-than-anything-we-can-imagine-super-plot that will blow everyone away (and I take no joy in saying that, I do love the books).

 

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7 hours ago, Iotun said:

will walk out north of the wall, with no horses and no supplies.

I remember watching the commentaries for season 4, at the scene where Brienne fights the Hound, and I'm sure I remember D&D were commenting that part of how they decide how to deviate from the book, is when they imagine what would happen if two characters who are separated in the books were to meet. So the fight with Brienne and the Hound happened because they felt 'Wouldn't it be cool if we could get to see these two characters fight and find out who would win?

Edited 7 hours ago by Iotun

It looked like a group of wildlings were draging a sled behinde them as they passed through the gate.

Your D&D comment has hit the nail on the head and it happens far too often.

I like the way they have just got on with it this season and are cutting off loose ends, but the Tarly burning scene looked staged and didn't feel natural

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1 hour ago, Krishtotter said:

 

Or........the showrunners signed up way back in 2006 to adapt books as opposed to coming up with their own material.

George RR Martin - suffering from the most chronic and devastating case of writer's block ever to afflict humankind (aka, he got himself in too deep and has bitten off more than he can chew :rolleyes:) - decided to abdicate his side of the bargain: leaving D&D to struggle on with some sketchy plot points and an endgame bereft of Martin's artistic abilities. 

And it shows.

This x 100.  I legitimately feel bad for D & D, this is not at all what they signed up for.  The first few seasons of the show were VERY loyal to the source material as far as adaptations go, because they had something to work off of.  Once it became clear that Martin wasn't finishing anything on time that's when the deviations began.  

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Wight hunt :lmao:

First, we do have to suspend a boatload of logic for this to happen. That said...

Sooo, since this is happening on the show, and the last time on the show Jon sees the wights is at Hardhome, probably not that long ago based on the show timeline crunches, why would they not take a boat from the coastal NW fort of Eastwatch, and sail themselves up to the last place that a literal hoard of wights had been seen, pluck one from there like the sweet flower it is, and then hop back on the boat to come back???

This zombie hoard should be remarkably close to Eastwatch by now, so the boat ride might only take a day :dunno:

  1. So, why go through the gate at a coastal fort?
  2. How does the Z-Team even know where to look for the ice zombies?
  3. How are they going to pluck just one zombie from the hoards that have been amassing. The show only has them in hoards now.
  4. What are they going to do about the "Night's KIng", or the other Others, if they run in to them?
  5. Jon has seen that the ice zombies are fast, so how are they going to out run them?
  6. Jon knows V-steel can kill an Other. Why did he not tell everyone to scrounge for one of they have one?
  7. Hmmm, was there a discussion about bringing obsidian that I missed? Has the Z-Team armed themselves with obsidian? Sam knows what happens when you stab an Other with obsidian, and so so they other NW men, now.
  8. Are they going to Meera-net the wights and carry the creature back how? Did they bring Meera's sled?
  9. Did they bring a cooler? That thing is going to rot and decay before it gets to KL because clearly winter is not everywhere... as we have been promised.

 

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