Jcat

A Wight for Cersei? Seriously?

227 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

I am sure they can write better, but I really think that they don't care.

It seems that way sometimes, I agree - but that said, it seem's GRRM doesn't seem to care too much about concluding his saga either.

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2 hours ago, Krishtotter said:

 

Or........the showrunners signed up way back in 2006 to adapt books as opposed to coming up with their own material.

George RR Martin - suffering from the most chronic and devastating case of writer's block ever to afflict humankind (aka, he got himself in too deep and has bitten off more than he can chew :rolleyes:) - decided to abdicate his side of the bargain: leaving D&D to struggle on with some sketchy plot points and an endgame bereft of Martin's artistic abilities. 

And it shows.

I think it's worse than that.  AGOT and ASOS were excellent books so no shocker that the material adapted for the show made the best TV in terms of character interaction and dialogue.  ACOK was a slow and often dull book but again much of the dialogue was good and adapted well to TV.

AFFC was so slow (and much if it seemingly pointless) it made ACOK look like a hare and after the breakneck speed of the latter half of ASOS would have killed any momentum the show had, had they tried to follow it faithfully.  And ADWD was simply a comparatively awful book compared to the rest of the series and the writing style had changed significantly from the first four.  The dialogue in AWDW is also considerably weaker than the first four books and like AFFC a faithful adaption wouldn't have translated at all well to TV.

But you're right regarding GRRM.  I actually wish he'd just have admitted three or four years ago that he is bored of writing ASOIAF and just canned the entire book series to concentrate on helping D&D with the show.  Had he done that it would have been an even better show than it already is.

But I'm still happy because at least with the show we are going to get an ending, no matter how hammed up it is.  We aren't getting a book ending, I resigned myself to that long ago.

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Let's be real the best material came from the first three books. The slow plodding season 5 was largely based off the controversially slow and plodding 4th and 5th books, all of us have wondered how the hell he would wrap everything up in two more books and now the final two seasons are well received with lots of fan service a plot progression, but feels a bit too fast compared to the prior pacing 

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To be fair, the show is trying to focus as much as it can on the threat beyond the wall. And all sides have faced some sort of setback, so having a temporary ceasefire seems like a good idea. Cersei would likely dismiss white walkers even if they manage to capture a wight, but there isn't too much else Jon can do presently to tackle Cersei.

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2 hours ago, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

I think it's both. D$D can't write anything good, and Martin seemingly can't write at all anymore. 

Well on D&D's defense, they started writing someone else's material in a page to screen transfer and did a really good job, then the author lost control of the plot and they had to get more creative with what they included and excluded, then the author just stopped putting out material for them besides an outline so now they have to color in the story without the sensibilities and nuances of the author. It would be different if it was there own original thing and then it wasn't as tightly written half way through and had a few plot holes. 

 

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Posted (edited)

A day later with time to reflect on what I saw Sunday night, I will try to weave my thoughts with those of others who have posted on this thread to briefly synthesize why this plot turn so wrecked my expectations of the show.

The plan -go north of the wall with a small team on foot; stealthly approach the Army of the Dead; grab one of the Wights without raising an alarm; somehow pack your live sample for transport; sneak back to Eastwatch by foot; put your sample on a ship bound for Dragonstone and/or Kings Landing; hope your sample does not 'go off line' because of heat or distance from its controller's signal (i.e White Walkers); somehow present your specimen to  Cersei; who will then be so moved that she immediately suspends her devious schemes to keep the Iron Throne and recover the Seven Kingdoms.

The risk -capture or death of Jon Snow the King in the North--who should be commanding all his forces from Winterfell; capture or death of Ser Jorah--who should be advising Daenerys on military affairs especially given Tyrion's lamentable track record; capture or death of Ser Thoros of Myr--who has the minor skill of bringing people back from the dead; capture or death of some of the best fighters in the North (i.e. the Hound, Tormund, Beric Dondarrion, maybe now Gendry).

The reward -convincing Cersei that the White Walkers and their army of the dead is real and a threat to all the living, so she is willing to suspend hostilities and cooperate in promoting the general defense.  But this is Cersei we are talking about.  She is not about to change her stripes.  She can absolutely not be trusted to do the right thing.  And it might put dangerous ideas into her or Qyburn's heads.  Besides in her final scene in episode 5 she seems to accept the reality of whats happening up north already.  If thats true, further confirmation is irrelevant.  In any case, Cersei has few resources to contribute to the effort up north.  Euron and his fleet are her main offensive force at the moment.  Euron is going to help defend against the White Walkers?  Maybe Cersei could send food supplies and direct the Maesters at the Citadel to study the problem, but thats about it.  

To sum-up: the very real risks far outweigh the dubious benefits of this harebrained plan.

Edited by Jcat
Clearity

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This really is a stupid idea that D & D came up with. Could they not have gone to GRRM for guidance? I know he isn't writing episodes anymore, but presumably he's available to them for consultation and what not.

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10 hours ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

In order to convince Danny, wouldn't be easier to fly with Dragon from a safe distance just to see the AoD? 

In order to convince Cersei..... wait are you freaking kidding that you want to have any conversation with Cersei? It would make some sense if they wanted to convince Jaime and doing so, making Jaime antagonize Cersei...

Anytime I see an episode wrote by David Hill I will still watch but at least I would be prepared for a high school level fan fiction...

 

Well, when Jon said he needs to convince both he was half joking. Dany is obviously almost there, it´s the main reason why she agreed with the plan. She is not yet ready to abort her entire mission just to help Jon, but if he convinces Cersei to not attack while she is away, she pretty much agreed she will take her army and dragons to North. Cersei of course has no intention to hold her part of the deal (and that most likely mean that Dany´s vision from season 2 will become a reality), but it´s not a complete nonsense. 

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Here's an idea. Instead of this stupid plan, why not meet with Cersei first and have her agree to send a delegation to the wall, under the protection of the KITN and the Dragon Queen, to see the truth for themselves? 

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3 hours ago, Iotun said:

In the book's it's already been established that Wights cannot survive south of the wall. The hand of the wight that was captured in the first book was shipped off to King's Landing to show it to the King, and it 'died off' after a certain distance from the wall. I don't remember who it was that was sent to take it there, I seem to recall it was Alistair Thorne, but I am fairly confident that whoever it was returned, and that Jon would be aware of the fact. So no, this is not a plot point from the book. I also seriously doubt that in the books the Hound would join up with the brotherhood (who have no reason to become buddies with him and are now led by Lady Stoneheart),or Jorah Mormont join up with Jon, or that anything from this ridiculous plot will take place.

Nope, the hand was fine when it arrived in Kings Landing. The brother carrying it was ignored and it had rotted away by the time they could be bothered to see him.

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, Pecan said:

Here's an idea. Instead of this stupid plan, why not meet with Cersei first and have her agree to send a delegation to the wall, under the protection of the KITN and the Dragon Queen, to see the truth for themselves? 

I was thinking the same thing.  Of course, they would have to make sure Cersei's representative is not an assassin of some sort.  But thats a lot more sensible alternative to provide her with proof of the northern threat.

Edited by Jcat
Clearity of intent

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16 minutes ago, hallam said:

Nope, the hand was fine when it arrived in Kings Landing. The brother carrying it was ignored and it had rotted away by the time they could be bothered to see him.

Hmmm, I just checked and it seems you are right. I stand corrected. I could swear I remembered that plot point differently.

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I think this whole plan was so Jon and crew could form a special missions unit and go on a  daring secret mission behind enemy lines--the typical demise of many promising war movies like "Saving Private Ryan".

If they really needed to do a special mission than the rationale should have been more compelling--like to destroy some all powerful weapon employed by the White Walkers or to rescue Bran after he was kidnapped by Wights or to assassinate the Night King with a Valerian steel arrowhead.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Wight hunt :lmao:

First, we do have to suspend a boatload of logic for this to happen. That said...

Sooo, since this is happening on the show, and the last time on the show Jon sees the wights is at Hardhome, probably not that long ago based on the show timeline crunches, why would they not take a boat from the coastal NW fort of Eastwatch, and sail themselves up to the last place that a literal hoard of wights had been seen, pluck one from there like the sweet flower it is, and then hop back on the boat to come back???

This zombie hoard should be remarkably close to Eastwatch by now, so the boat ride might only take a day :dunno:

  1. So, why go through the gate at a coastal fort?
  2. How does the Z-Team even know where to look for the ice zombies?
  3. How are they going to pluck just one zombie from the hoards that have been amassing. The show only has them in hoards now.
  4. What are they going to do about the "Night's KIng", or the other Others, if they run in to them?
  5. Jon has seen that the ice zombies are fast, so how are they going to out run them?
  6. Jon knows V-steel can kill an Other. Why did he not tell everyone to scrounge for one of they have one?
  7. Hmmm, was there a discussion about bringing obsidian that I missed? Has the Z-Team armed themselves with obsidian? Sam knows what happens when you stab an Other with obsidian, and so so they other NW men, now.
  8. Are they going to Meera-net the wights and carry the creature back how? Did they bring Meera's sled?
  9. Did they bring a cooler? That thing is going to rot and decay before it gets to KL because clearly winter is not everywhere... as we have been promised.

 

Hahaha thy have a lot to learn from Meera! Thy definitely need a cooler 

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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By the way, having just re-watched the episode, one minor thing that also bugged me is how the army of the dead is apparently a short raven's fly away from the wall - and yet following multiple journey's up and down Westeros, they'll still not manage to arrive at the Wall.

 

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4 minutes ago, Iotun said:

By the way, having just re-watched the episode, one minor thing that also bugged me is how the army of the dead is apparently a short raven's fly away from the wall - and yet following multiple journey's up and down Westeros, they'll still not manage to arrive at the Wall.

 

Teleportation devices south of the Wall. Reverse teleportation north of the Wall. Because magic... or something.

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3 minutes ago, Iotun said:

By the way, having just re-watched the episode, one minor thing that also bugged me is how the army of the dead is apparently a short raven's fly away from the wall - and yet following multiple journey's up and down Westeros, they'll still not manage to arrive at the Wall.

 

Maybe time is really, really relative in D & D's GoT world?  Some characters travel really fast, while others apparently hardly progress at all.  Or maybe it's just bad writing.

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They could at least give us something! Have a scene where Sam reads in one of his books that the magic in the Wall keeps the White Walkers from approaching until only the deep winter comes and makes their magic stronger. It would take less than a minute, and make all the globe trotting around a bit more bearable.

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11 minutes ago, Jcat said:

I think this whole plan was so Jon and crew could form a special missions unit and go on a  daring secret mission behind enemy lines--the typical demise of many promising war movies like "Saving Private Ryan".

If they really needed to do a special mission than the rationale should have been more compelling--like to destroy some all powerful weapon employed by the White Walkers or to rescue Bran after he was kidnapped by Wights or to assassinate the Night King with a Valerian steel arrowhead.

I like the idea of having to rescue Bran. I imagine a scenario where only Meera makes it through the wall and gets word to Jon about Bran. This would make the rationale of actually going on a seeming suicide mission at the very least plausible.

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44 minutes ago, Pecan said:

Here's an idea. Instead of this stupid plan, why not meet with Cersei first and have her agree to send a delegation to the wall, under the protection of the KITN and the Dragon Queen, to see the truth for themselves? 

Because she'd let Qyburn and UnGregor deal with the envoys.

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