Jcat

A Wight for Cersei? Seriously?

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, I prefer summer said:

Interesting, Jaglover. That raises a question: does the NK know what is going on south of the wall? If so, how? Does he have visions, like Bran? Wargs? I can't imagine he has spies.

Didn't the Night King have a role in controlling that Wight that tried to assassinate Commander Mormont in an early season?  Or am I remembering that incorrectly?

And for me hatching this dumb ass scheme to go north of the wall and capture a Wight is an absolute low point in my entire experience of GoT.  The Arya multiple stabbing thing was bad storytelling.  But what makes this current boneheaded plan so egregious is that one of my favorite characters is it's author--Tyrion.

Hey speaking of a better way to get a Wight--hows about Bran contact his Uncle Benjen?  He knows the lay of the land much better.  And at least he has a friggin horse!

 

 

Edited by Jcat
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Just now, Jcat said:

Didn't the Night King have a role in controlling that Wight that tried to assassinate Commander Mormont in an early season?  Or am I remembering that incorrectly?

Interesting question, which I don't think was spelled out in the show.  I personally thought it was left outside the gate by the NK as a trojan horse.

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3 hours ago, I prefer summer said:

Interesting, Jaglover. That raises a question: does the NK know what is going on south of the wall? If so, how? Does he have visions, like Bran? Wargs? I can't imagine he has spies.

He obviously has a great deal of power and he could actually sense Bran seeing him in a vision, which would suggest he possess similar abilities to Bran amongst his other gifts.

Why wouldn't he wait?, while war continues to rage south of the wall?

That is why I have no problem with this aspect of the show as it seems a natural course of action for the NK. He has waited centuries, what is a few months?

 

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1 hour ago, Jcat said:

Didn't the Night King have a role in controlling that Wight that tried to assassinate Commander Mormont in an early season?  Or am I remembering that incorrectly?

And for me hatching this dumb ass scheme to go north of the wall and capture a Wight is an absolute low point in my entire experience of GoT.  The Arya multiple stabbing thing was bad storytelling.  But what makes this current boneheaded plan so egregious is that one of my favorite characters is it's author--Tyrion.

Hey speaking of a better way to get a Wight--hows about Bran contact his Uncle Benjen?  He knows the lay of the land much better.  And at least he has a friggin horse!

 

 

I can't recall the answer to your first question- I believe it is certainly hinted at in the books that the Others placed the wight there with the intent of killing Mormont but I read that so long ago I don't even remember anymore.

As to your 2nd part, I sort of agree and I sort of don't.  While I think the plan, or execution thereof, is incredibly stupid, I also understand why a mission like this is sort of necessary.  Like what else can Jon and Dany do to try and convince Cersei and the rest of the realm of the threat BEFORE the threat is past the Wall and they believe it will be too late?

We don't know if Bran is capable of contacting Benjen and outside of sending some of the skeleton crew that remains as the Night's Watch or Tormund's wildlings North of the Wall, the best option is to send this like Magnificent 7 mash-up of some of the better fighters in Westeros to accomplish this.  

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It seems Brendan had Benjen on his mystical speed dial, I'm sure Bran has the same ability....whether he knows it yet is another question.

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I originally thought their "Capture A Wight" plan was incredibly stupid too--because it sounds like a stupid plan and probably is a stupid plan--but then I realized there is no better plan. Put your show vs. lack-of-book prejudice and D&D hate aside from a moment and consider this:

-In season one, Lord Commander Mormont sent Alliser Thorne to King's Landing with the hand of the wight that tried to kill Mormont and Jon Snow. The idea--just like this one--was to send proof of the undead and White Walkers to try and warn King Joffrey, who obviously wouldn't put any stock in it just like Cersei at the time. It didn't help that the hand stopped moving by the time Thorne reached KL. We know how completely and utterly stubborn Cersei is, but does everyone else? It's doubtful she would be swayed by an actual undead wight, but it would mean SOMETHING and it's still within the realm of possibility that she would accept the realness of danger, especially if others see it, like Jaime. So this is really a throwback to an original idea that made sense but now has to be taken to a more extreme level--so why is it so inconceivable?

-Why is only that small group going? Because they all believe that the threat is real. No one else will go with them. Given the immediacy that Bran has seen the Night King and his army marching towards Eastwatch (despite whatever slow pace), they don't have time to waste trying fruitlessly to recruit more people to go on this almost-certain death march past the Wall. There has never been any confirmation that the rest of the Northern lords would support an actual venture north of the Wall and face this danger head on, nor with anyone else who isn't already going. THEY NEED TO GET ACTUAL PROOF - NOT JUST WORDS.

-They're trying to bring back one wight, not destroy the entire army and kill the White Walkers and end the whole story all by themselves. Obviously, they are going to end up running into the whole army + White Walkers and be in a whole heap of trouble, but that doesn't mean it was their plan. Again, even if it is a stupid plan, it's the only one they have so they have to go for it.

-Why wouldn't Dany just fly north to help with the dragons or observe the confirmation herself? We don't know for sure that she won't pull a Stannis and show up just in time to save anyone, but we already know why she and her dragons won't go--because she's too busy fighting this war for the Throne because it's the only thing she truly cares about and if she leaves, Cersei's forces will attack her and her strongholds while she's weak. Don't forget that Euron could sail to Dragonstone easily and attack, but Dany's dragons there might be the only thing preventing him from doing so (Sorry, Euron doesn't seem to have a "dragonbinder" horn like he claims in the books). And why couldn't she just take Drogon and leave the other two behind? Probably because they only respond to her and on their own could be more easily wounded, killed, or become uncontrollable. Yes, she left two of them there when she attacked Jaime's troops but for all we know, Euron was still dealing with Casterly Rock and perhaps sailing back to King's Landing and no one seemed to know that she left until afterwards.

So, please, all of you complainers who think you know what the show SHOULD DO instead--please, explain what you think would be a better idea that ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE given all the circumstances since this idea is apparently the "stupidest thing the show has ever done." Again, it's not the best idea, but they don't have much choice BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE. Who is to say that they didn't get this idea from GRRM? Until someone confirms or denies, no one can say otherwise. Regardless, I can't wait for next week's episode and to see how it all unfolds.

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3 minutes ago, mcbrigno said:

So, please, all of you complainers who think you know what the show SHOULD DO instead--please, explain what you think would be a better idea that ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE given all the circumstances since this idea is apparently the "stupidest thing the show has ever done." Again, it's not the best idea, but they don't have much choice BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE. Who is to say that they didn't get this idea from GRRM? Until someone confirms or denies, no one can say otherwise. Regardless, I can't wait for next week's episode and to see how it all unfolds.

The trip North takes a long time, if we are to believe there is no teleporters and it is just timeline vs. the scenes thing.

By the time they are back, if they are back, and if Jon lives and they get the wight to Cersei - North could be the biggest ice cube in the history of Planetos.

Dany had several options, all better than this further stupidity from her Hand. Take Kings Landing as everyone agrees is easy for her (some ash is better than all ice everywhere) dracarys Cersei, take all the troops from Seven Five Kingdomns and go North with Jon. Or just simply fly to Kings landing, meet with the Dothraki strike team that would apparently be easy to get in and out of Red Keep, in the throne room and dracarys Cersei. Sent two hundred dothraki to kill Cersei using the mentioned tunnels. Etc.

Cersei need not live! Of course, Lena Headey needs to stay in the show, so - to coin Jaime - here we are.

If it is from GRRM or not, it is idiotic to begin with. To send the King in the North in the expedition is just comic book idiotic. "Wildlings would not follow them.." what the two of them in the expedition? Oh it would surely fail, then.. :)

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31 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

The trip North takes a long time, if we are to believe there is no teleporters and it is just timeline vs. the scenes thing.

By the time they are back, if they are back, and if Jon lives and they get the wight to Cersei - North could be the biggest ice cube in the history of Planetos.

Dany had several options, all better than this further stupidity from her Hand. Take Kings Landing as everyone agrees is easy for her (some ash is better than all ice everywhere) dracarys Cersei, take all the troops from Seven Five Kingdomns and go North with Jon. Or just simply fly to Kings landing, meet with the Dothraki strike team that would apparently be easy to get in and out of Red Keep, in the throne room and dracarys Cersei. Sent two hundred dothraki to kill Cersei using the mentioned tunnels. Etc.

Cersei need not live! Of course, Lena Headey needs to stay in the show, so - to coin Jaime - here we are.

If it is from GRRM or not, it is idiotic to begin with. To send the King in the North in the expedition is just comic book idiotic. "Wildlings would not follow them.." what the two of them in the expedition? Oh it would surely fail, then.. :)

Except your first option isn't really an option by the narrative logic of the show.  They have ruled out this idea of Dany just doing this because Dany doesn't want to kill thousands of innoncents- which she would have to if she just flew her dragons to the Red Keep.  Even assuming that Dany WAS willing to kill all those people, if Dany is truly serious about the threat of the White Walkers (which it appears she sort of is), probably not the best idea to engage in any more warfare among the living until the White Walkers are dealt with.

Your 2nd idea...I mean, it's ridiculous.  As dumb as Tyrion being smuggled into King's Landing was, it was only a team of 2 people.  Smuggling 200+ Dothraki would make even less sense.  Additionally, Dothraki warriors are not known for their stealth and would probably only really be a threat on horseback, so I don't think that makes any sense.  

Is it "comic book idiotic" to send the one person who has actually fought the White Walkers before among Dany and Jon's people to fight the White Walkers?  Additionally, as you mentioned, Jon is the KitN, if he wants to go on the expedition, he can go on the expedition and there's not a whole lot Davos or anyone else can do about it.  I mean, they can strip Jon of his kingship which was discussed this episode but Jon doesn't care about that nearly as much as beating the White Walkers.  

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29 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

The trip North takes a long time, if we are to believe there is no teleporters and it is just timeline vs. the scenes thing.

By the time they are back, if they are back, and if Jon lives and they get the wight to Cersei - North could be the biggest ice cube in the history of Planetos.

Dany had several options, all better than this further stupidity from her Hand. Take Kings Landing as everyone agrees is easy for her (some ash is better than all ice everywhere) dracarys Cersei, take all the troops from Seven Five Kingdomns and go North with Jon. Or just simply fly to Kings landing, meet with the Dothraki strike team that would apparently be easy to get in and out of Red Keep, in the throne room and dracarys Cersei. Sent two hundred dothraki to kill Cersei using the mentioned tunnels. Etc.

Cersei need not live! Of course, Lena Headey needs to stay in the show, so - to coin Jaime - here we are.

If it is from GRRM or not, it is idiotic to begin with. To send the King in the North in the expedition is just comic book idiotic. "Wildlings would not follow them.." what the two of them in the expedition? Oh it would surely fail, then.. :)

Sorry Mcbrigno I have to agree with Dragons 7th Eye and the majority of posters on this thread.  When you are the one crafting the story there are always options.  I can think of several as others have already.  Go read Lotun's earliest post, he has done the best job of laying out in exacting detail why this plan is so mind numbingly dumb.  The only possible redemption could come through what I call the 'Clouseau effect'--inept and incompetent bumbling, which some how concludes successfully entirely by accident.

And here is another question: can Bran not foresee what Jon and company intend to do?  If so why can't he do a Raven reconnaissance to find some Wight stragglers that could be easily captured or better yet tell Jon not to follow this ridiculous plan!  There would be plenty of time for a Raven to reach Eastwatch before Jon's ship arrives.

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37 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Except your first option isn't really an option by the narrative logic of the show.  They have ruled out this idea of Dany just doing this because Dany doesn't want to kill thousands of innoncents- which she would have to if she just flew her dragons to the Red Keep.  Even assuming that Dany WAS willing to kill all those people, if Dany is truly serious about the threat of the White Walkers (which it appears she sort of is), probably not the best idea to engage in any more warfare among the living until the White Walkers are dealt with.

You are confusing Red Keep with Kings Landing. As for your other replies such as the difficulties of smuggling 200 Dothraki in etc. - all a lot easier than the plan they are implementing as well as taking a lot less time.

It is a dumb plot twist and one that is done for fan service to get our heroes together as well as an easy and cheap way to get rid of some of those characters. Narrative logic - nowhere to be seen.

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23 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

You are confusing Red Keep with Kings Landing. As for your other replies such as the difficulties of smuggling 200 Dothraki in etc. - all a lot easier than the plan they are implementing as well as taking a lot less time.

It is a dumb plot twist and one that is done for fan service to get our heroes together as well as an easy and cheap way to get rid of some of those characters. Narrative logic - nowhere to be seen.

But the plot needs a dragon north of the Wall before s7e7.

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In the classic "Seven Samurai" the Samurai agreed to fight for just some food and a roof over their heads--the stakes were the survival of one mountain village, not the existence of the entire human race.

So hey writers you want some band of brothers action?  Come up with a more compelling reason for them to take such an enormous risk!  Something worth the lives of all the characters we are about to lose.

 

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4 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

But the plot needs a dragon north of the Wall before s7e7.

Jon will be in trouble and Dany flies to the rescue. 

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Posted (edited)

1 minute ago, Deminelle said:

Jon will be in trouble and Dany flies to the rescue. 

Pls no...

Jon is already a retard...

Edited by plastic throne

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1 minute ago, Deminelle said:

Jon will be in trouble and Dany flies to the rescue. 

Exactly.  I think they just could have come up with a more credible storyline to get that dragon up there. 

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But come to think of it; Ye, that is definitely something that these writers would come up with..

Jon, the state he is in the show, is not worth 10 levies, let alone sacrifising a dragon (NK will get one, you can see it on promotional posters). FFS he already f*cked up (royally I might add) BoB and wasted thousands of uneccessary casualties among the free folk and the last giant,... He's been schooled in politics by his little sis' and openly taunted only to be saved by a 10yrs old girl (apparently she is better at speeches),..

There is zero stuff he does/or is good at, in fact, all he does is make things worse. He is better off dead if this "save me" scenario you suggested happen.

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4 hours ago, Illiterati said:

Exactly.  I think they just could have come up with a more credible storyline to get that dragon up there. 

I totally agree.  Daenerys flying to the rescue is extremely likely, and I think it will be awesome.  However, I am still going to wince as to the reason why she will have to come to the rescue.

I wonder how Daenerys will know when Jon and company get into a tight spot?  Bran probably.

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this is the single dumbest plan ive seen on any TV show ever. its horrendously bad.

ive loved the show every step of the way, but this is so bad it completely ruined the episode and i dont know how anything that comes of this can ever escape how it started. its just mind boggingly stupid.

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1 hour ago, Jcat said:

I totally agree.  Daenerys flying to the rescue is extremely likely, and I think it will be awesome.  However, I am still going to wince as to the reason why she will have to come to the rescue.

I wonder how Daenerys will know when Jon and company get into a tight spot?  Bran probably.

Possibly one of the dragons (my guess is Rhaegal) will sense it when Jon is in danger and get antsy, causing Dany to follow it on Drogon beyond The Wall.

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, mcbrigno said:

I originally thought their "Capture A Wight" plan was incredibly stupid too--because it sounds like a stupid plan and probably is a stupid plan--but then I realized there is no better plan. Put your show vs. lack-of-book prejudice and D&D hate aside from a moment and consider this:

-In season one, Lord Commander Mormont sent Alliser Thorne to King's Landing with the hand of the wight that tried to kill Mormont and Jon Snow. The idea--just like this one--was to send proof of the undead and White Walkers to try and warn King Joffrey, who obviously wouldn't put any stock in it just like Cersei at the time. It didn't help that the hand stopped moving by the time Thorne reached KL. We know how completely and utterly stubborn Cersei is, but does everyone else? It's doubtful she would be swayed by an actual undead wight, but it would mean SOMETHING and it's still within the realm of possibility that she would accept the realness of danger, especially if others see it, like Jaime. So this is really a throwback to an original idea that made sense but now has to be taken to a more extreme level--so why is it so inconceivable?

-Why is only that small group going? Because they all believe that the threat is real. No one else will go with them. Given the immediacy that Bran has seen the Night King and his army marching towards Eastwatch (despite whatever slow pace), they don't have time to waste trying fruitlessly to recruit more people to go on this almost-certain death march past the Wall. There has never been any confirmation that the rest of the Northern lords would support an actual venture north of the Wall and face this danger head on, nor with anyone else who isn't already going. THEY NEED TO GET ACTUAL PROOF - NOT JUST WORDS.

-They're trying to bring back one wight, not destroy the entire army and kill the White Walkers and end the whole story all by themselves. Obviously, they are going to end up running into the whole army + White Walkers and be in a whole heap of trouble, but that doesn't mean it was their plan. Again, even if it is a stupid plan, it's the only one they have so they have to go for it.

-Why wouldn't Dany just fly north to help with the dragons or observe the confirmation herself? We don't know for sure that she won't pull a Stannis and show up just in time to save anyone, but we already know why she and her dragons won't go--because she's too busy fighting this war for the Throne because it's the only thing she truly cares about and if she leaves, Cersei's forces will attack her and her strongholds while she's weak. Don't forget that Euron could sail to Dragonstone easily and attack, but Dany's dragons there might be the only thing preventing him from doing so (Sorry, Euron doesn't seem to have a "dragonbinder" horn like he claims in the books). And why couldn't she just take Drogon and leave the other two behind? Probably because they only respond to her and on their own could be more easily wounded, killed, or become uncontrollable. Yes, she left two of them there when she attacked Jaime's troops but for all we know, Euron was still dealing with Casterly Rock and perhaps sailing back to King's Landing and no one seemed to know that she left until afterwards.

So, please, all of you complainers who think you know what the show SHOULD DO instead--please, explain what you think would be a better idea that ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE given all the circumstances since this idea is apparently the "stupidest thing the show has ever done." Again, it's not the best idea, but they don't have much choice BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE. Who is to say that they didn't get this idea from GRRM? Until someone confirms or denies, no one can say otherwise. Regardless, I can't wait for next week's episode and to see how it all unfolds.

Go to the wall. Jon, Danny and Jamie (after captured either in KL since is easier than capturing a wight or after FoF2.). Nobody else matters. 

Go .. (on a dragon) see...and go back...nobody dies. Danny will be Convinced, Jammie will be convinced (if Jammie can't convince Cersei, nobody can).

 

odds of succeeding in comparison to  the stupid "capture a wight plan) : much higher.... Efficiency in convince people that matters: same... casualties: none.

edit: after Danny and Dragon goes to rescue the "avengers" or the "suicide squad" , we can come back here for me to tell you "I told you so"... (no I haven't read spoilers and leaks)

 

Edited by King Louis II (KLII)

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