Jcat

A Wight for Cersei? Seriously?

227 posts in this topic

The Nights King is waiting for winter. It has to be cold or his wight rot.

Problem solved.

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1 hour ago, taliefer said:

this is the single dumbest plan ive seen on any TV show ever. its horrendously bad.

ive loved the show every step of the way, but this is so bad it completely ruined the episode and i dont know how anything that comes of this can ever escape how it started. its just mind boggingly stupid.

Welcome to the club!

28 minutes ago, nara said:

Possibly one of the dragons (my guess is Rhaegal) will sense it when Jon is in danger and get antsy, causing Dany to follow it on Drogon beyond The Wall.

Hmmm...maybe but Rhaegal and Jon have had no interaction.  Maybe Drogon will sense something though.  Kinda of a Lassie moment in GoT.

17 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

Go to the wall. Jon, Danny and Jamie (after captured either in KL since is easier than capturing a wight or after FoF2.). Nobody else matters. 

Go .. (on a dragon) see...and go back...nobody dies. Danny will be Convinced, Jammie will be convinced (if Jammie can't convince Cersei, nobody can).

 

odds of succeeding in comparison to  the stupid "capture a wight plan) : much higher.... Efficiency in convince people that matters: same... casualties: none.

edit: after Danny and Dragon goes to rescue the "avengers" or the "suicide squad" , we can come back here for me to tell you "I told you so"... (no I haven't read spoilers and leaks)

 

Interesting idea.  I wonder what is the range of the dragons?  And what is their cruising speed?

 

 

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Just now, Jcat said:

Hmmm...maybe but Rhaegal and Jon have had no interaction.  Maybe Drogon will sense something though.  Kinda of a Lassie moment in GoT

I picked Rhaegal because Drogon is already being ridden by Dany and Jon is Rhaegar's son.  Pure speculation.

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14 minutes ago, hallam said:

The Nights King is waiting for winter. It has to be cold or his wight rot.

Problem solved.

'Wight rot.' Thats funny!  It reminds me of a Seinfeld line...like 'shrinkage'.

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On 8/14/2017 at 4:29 AM, Jcat said:

Something incredible happened tonight a show I have loved and followed for seven seasons just crapped all over itself.  Or should I say D & D just crapped all over it.  The scheme Tyrion proposes for Jon and crew to go to Eastwatch, and get a Wight as a showroom model to convince Cersei to at least grant a temporary armistice--is colossally stupid!  The show runners have ruined Tyrion.  

Does Tyrion not know his sister by now?  Even if they get a sample, can they preserve it long enough to get it down south?  Would Cersei even believe this is what Tyrion and others claim it to be, and not some alchemist's trick?  And even if he could convince her she is as likely to make an alliance with the Night King as she is Daenerys.  Cersei has no scruples.

I have never been so disappointed in any TV show I have followed as I am tonight.

:agree: that they would risk their lives just to convince  cersei is beyond silly ; one dragon on kings landing is all they need. i get that the whole point they're trying to make is that Dany "is not that kind of leader" --- but the fact is, she IS that kind of leader and the whole show has been saying all along that "might beats right".

what the fall of the Tyrells + Olenna showed ("so much for golden roses") was that democratic maneuvering + manipulation will not win out - blowing up all your enemies will. It's the logic that the series has been playing into all along and Dany going against this creates tension and drama - but its easy drama.

 When she executed the Tarlys - that was "right" in the world of the show. Mounting her dragon , heading to King's Landing, and burning Cersei alive is also "right" by this rationale...

 

 

 

 

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this whole concept of the protagonists having to placate  cersei is endlessly frustrating and poor drama....she should have been dead seasons ago....

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, mcbrigno said:

So, please, all of you complainers who think you know what the show SHOULD DO instead--please, explain what you think would be a better idea that ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE given all the circumstances since this idea is apparently the "stupidest thing the show has ever done." Again, it's not the best idea, but they don't have much choice BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE. Who is to say that they didn't get this idea from GRRM? Until someone confirms or denies, no one can say otherwise. Regardless, I can't wait for next week's episode and to see how it all unfolds.

GRRM may have had this idea but it would have nothing to do with convincing Cersei. 

How I would write it, based on logic, rather than characters doing everything the plot demands.

Jaimie and Bronn are fished out the river (as you don't swim very far in kgs of armour). Tyrion convinces Dany to spare Jaimie's life and to send him to Cersei with an offer of peace.

meanwhile we see the Dothraki besige KL and have some of the KL lot observe the fires from their siege lines. Dany heads back to Dragonstone (and takes Tyrion with her as there is no other way he magically appears there) and tells everyone she is planning to assault KL. Then Jon appeals to her to save lives and says that the real threat is the NK. Which Dany admits she doesn't believe in. Jon goes north of the wall to capture a Wight to convince Dany, the end.

The whole capture a Wight thing would still be stupid, but at least the show would be more logical in getting there and the show would have two plotlines building  tension, the expedition North of the wall and the prepartions to storm KL.

Instead all momentum has been lost.  

Edited by JagLover

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The biggest problem I have with the whole catch a wight mission, besides its juvenile nature, is that they are legitimizing Cersei's authority by seeking to persuade her.

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20 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

The biggest problem I have with the whole catch a wight mission, besides its juvenile nature, is that they are legitimizing Cersei's authority by seeking to persuade her.

True, they could also have taken Jamie north to see the army of the dead with his own eyes....

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I just want to know why she needs convincing that things like this exist when she has Frankenstein Mountain guarding her already? I think she would need convincing that there is an army of them and that it is an actual threat to her personally. She is so far gone and wants to "die fighting" so she might not care. Let another army take out her enemies. I'm just not sure there is any way she will voluntarily join forces with Dany.

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On 14.8.2017 at 0:14 PM, Edward Teach said:

How the fuck do they expect to survive that?

Saved by the TAF

Spoiler

Targaryan Air Force

 

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34 minutes ago, LoneWolfOfWinterfell said:

I just want to know why she needs convincing that things like this exist when she has Frankenstein Mountain guarding her already? I think she would need convincing that there is an army of them and that it is an actual threat to her personally. She is so far gone and wants to "die fighting" so she might not care. Let another army take out her enemies. I'm just not sure there is any way she will voluntarily join forces with Dany.

She won't and her brother Tyrion should know this, which makes the wight hunt even that much more stupid.

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Posted (edited)

On 2017-08-14 at 3:21 PM, Iotun said:

 

It's all so... stupid. What made Game of Thrones interesting was the complex 3-dimensional characters, and the de-construction of fantasy tropes given the brutal reality of the world. Remember for example in Season 1, when Jorah Mormont fights the bloodrider, and defeats him because of the protection afforded to him by his armor? Despite the typical fantasy cliché of the highly skilled steppe warrior, we are shown how in real life, the practicalities of armor and medieval combat are effective in a real fight. Now we get the cringe-worthy line from Jaime about how 'Now I've seen the Dothraki fight, no army in the seven kingdoms can defeat them' (Why?). But now everything, from the Dothraki to the individual characters, has been devolved to one-dimensional fantasy clichés that GRRM tried so hard to elevate his books from, and the plot has devolved to a series of nonsensical actions to go from one action set-piece to another.

 

Kinda wish I didn't read this... I thought the plan was stupid when first shown, but with some nice acting it could perhaps be remedied and I kinda forgot about it by the end of the episode. 

But everything you say is true, it's just nonsensical... 

Perhaps we can pretend that Tyrion doesn't really care about Cersei or Kings Landing, but he's really just mindgaming Daenerys and it's all an effort to convince her to get her dragons north? 

Edited by SuperWrestler

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The way that I see it, the concept of capturing a Wight to convince the Westerosi lords of the danger of the Undead is not in itself a bad one. But in the logic of the story, it's something that Jon should have tried to arrange while still the Lord Commander of the watch, let along the King in the North, arranging it with a decently sized expedition of men on horseback that he does not have to lead himself. Jon should then have taken the Wight to be captured with him to Dany in the first place. Having failed to do that, what makes this plot so stupid is:

- that Jon would think of it while in Dragonstone, and also 

- the way this has been organized. Jon, king in the north, goes himself with a handful of men, rather than sending a planned and well supplied expedition.

- the reasons given for this plan. Apparently, this is only done because there is a need to 'save time' given how imminent the danger is, and the only way to save time would be to pause the war, which requires convincing Cersei of the danger North of the Wall.

This justification for this plan makes absolutely no sense.

First of all, Cersei is already losing the war, so she would want a ceasefire already in any case.

Even if she does not agree to the ceasefire, just by allying with Jon, Dany has enough power to make Cersei's power merely a formality. She could blockade King's Landing, and rule from Highgarden or Casterly Rock as defacto queen until the city starves out.

Not that you would need to starve the city in the first place. Remember how in Season 1 Janos Slynt is convinced to betray Ned Stak with the promise of a lordship? You could literally camp 40,000 Dothraki outside the city, then have Dany just fly over it with a dragon while attacking nothing, and you can bet 95% of the Lannister and City Watch commanders would see the writing on the wall, and hand over the city to Dany over the promise of a lordship.

And if Dany does want to fight, even without using her Dragons, it would literally be faster to attack and take the city outright like Stannis did in Season 2. 

And that is even forgetting the fact that Davos has just revealed that he can SMUGGLE anybody in the city unnoticed. If Tyrion can sneak into the Red Keep dungeons unnoticed, so can a strike team of 10 Dothraki... 7 good men are supposed to be able to go north of the wall against an army of hundreds of thousands of undead, yet you can't get 7 good men to sneak into the Red Keep and assassinate Cersei?

It's bothersome because obviously the plot is written to serve a desire to film certain fanboyish action setpieces, and create convoluted justifications for them, rather than what makes sense. The characters, are the place and time that they are in, would simply not carry out these actions. It stinks because the plot is not crafted to serve a story, but is crafted to serve the film-making whims of the showrunners, who obviously want to film a 'magnificent 7 beyond the wall' setpiece, and just are trying to grasp at straws to make this happen. It takes you out of the world, and feels so... TV... because it reminds you of modern film making clichés, rather than what makes sense in the world of Westeros.   If there cannot be a justifiable reason for something to happen, but the showrunners just have to have their fun and film a certain scene, they might as well have skipped the plan, and filmed a scene with D&D sitting at their office, speaking to the camera, and telling us 'Hello audience, we don't know why this would take place in the story, but we want to show you the Hound, Jon, and Gendry fighting White Walkers, so here's a scene where they do just that - enjoy!'

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56 minutes ago, SuperWrestler said:

 

Kinda wish I didn't read this... I thought the plan was stupid when first shown, but with some nice acting it could perhaps be remedied and I kinda forgot about it by the end of the episode. 

But everything you say is true, it's just nonsensical... 

Perhaps we can pretend that Tyrion doesn't really care about Cersei or Kings Landing, but he's really just mindgaming Daenerys and it's all an effort to convince her to get her dragons north? 

I would really like to think Tyrion's plan is just a front for some more elaborate strategy, because he is my favorite character.  Unfortunately I really think not in the TV series.  Ain't no 3-dimensional chess going on where D & D are concerned.

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1 hour ago, Iotun said:

The way that I see it, the concept of capturing a Wight to convince the Westerosi lords of the danger of the Undead is not in itself a bad one. But in the logic of the story, it's something that Jon should have tried to arrange while still the Lord Commander of the watch, let along the King in the North, arranging it with a decently sized expedition of men on horseback that he does not have to lead himself. Jon should then have taken the Wight to be captured with him to Dany in the first place. Having failed to do that, what makes this plot so stupid is:

- that Jon would think of it while in Dragonstone, and also 

- the way this has been organized. Jon, king in the north, goes himself with a handful of men, rather than sending a planned and well supplied expedition.

- the reasons given for this plan. Apparently, this is only done because there is a need to 'save time' given how imminent the danger is, and the only way to save time would be to pause the war, which requires convincing Cersei of the danger North of the Wall.

This justification for this plan makes absolutely no sense.

First of all, Cersei is already losing the war, so she would want a ceasefire already in any case.

Even if she does not agree to the ceasefire, just by allying with Jon, Dany has enough power to make Cersei's power merely a formality. She could blockade King's Landing, and rule from Highgarden or Casterly Rock as defacto queen until the city starves out.

Not that you would need to starve the city in the first place. Remember how in Season 1 Janos Slynt is convinced to betray Ned Stak with the promise of a lordship? You could literally camp 40,000 Dothraki outside the city, then have Dany just fly over it with a dragon while attacking nothing, and you can bet 95% of the Lannister and City Watch commanders would see the writing on the wall, and hand over the city to Dany over the promise of a lordship.

And if Dany does want to fight, even without using her Dragons, it would literally be faster to attack and take the city outright like Stannis did in Season 2. 

And that is even forgetting the fact that Davos has just revealed that he can SMUGGLE anybody in the city unnoticed. If Tyrion can sneak into the Red Keep dungeons unnoticed, so can a strike team of 10 Dothraki... 7 good men are supposed to be able to go north of the wall against an army of hundreds of thousands of undead, yet you can't get 7 good men to sneak into the Red Keep and assassinate Cersei?

It's bothersome because obviously the plot is written to serve a desire to film certain fanboyish action setpieces, and create convoluted justifications for them, rather than what makes sense. The characters, are the place and time that they are in, would simply not carry out these actions. It stinks because the plot is not crafted to serve a story, but is crafted to serve the film-making whims of the showrunners, who obviously want to film a 'magnificent 7 beyond the wall' setpiece, and just are trying to grasp at straws to make this happen. It takes you out of the world, and feels so... TV... because it reminds you of modern film making clichés, rather than what makes sense in the world of Westeros.   If there cannot be a justifiable reason for something to happen, but the showrunners just have to have their fun and film a certain scene, they might as well have skipped the plan, and filmed a scene with D&D sitting at their office, speaking to the camera, and telling us 'Hello audience, we don't know why this would take place in the story, but we want to show you the Hound, Jon, and Gendry fighting White Walkers, so here's a scene where they do just that - enjoy!'

Very well stated once again.

The thing about this stupid plotline that I found so deflating is it actually wrecked my appreciation of the entire story.  There have been inconsistencies and occassionally bad writing in the series, but it never rose to a level of disrupting my overall enjoyment.  What happened Sunday night was fundamentally different.

Maybe the show runner's whole approach to this season underlies my dissatisfaction.  D & D are treating the storyline this season like the SPEED ROUND on some game show.  They have revved-up everything so fast that some crucial scenes are being drained of their color and emotion, and therefore of their significance.

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On 8/13/2017 at 9:29 PM, Jcat said:

Something incredible happened tonight a show I have loved and followed for seven seasons just crapped all over itself.  Or should I say D & D just crapped all over it.  The scheme Tyrion proposes for Jon and crew to go to Eastwatch, and get a Wight as a showroom model to convince Cersei to at least grant a temporary armistice--is colossally stupid!  The show runners have ruined Tyrion.  

Does Tyrion not know his sister by now?  Even if they get a sample, can they preserve it long enough to get it down south?  Would Cersei even believe this is what Tyrion and others claim it to be, and not some alchemist's trick?  And even if he could convince her she is as likely to make an alliance with the Night King as she is Daenerys.  Cersei has no scruples.

I have never been so disappointed in any TV show I have followed as I am tonight.

It is only because Dany is being unreasonable and insisting that the IT come first.

The entire scene has Dany saying she won't leave the "3 Kingdoms" to Cersie so Jon/Tyrion are forced to concoct some way to force a truce and the only way they can come up with is capturing a wight.

Basically, if Dany could reassess the situation and do the "right" thing then none of this would be needed but since she is obsessed with sitting on the IT over and above anything.........and we know Cersie feels the same way as Dany......

The men have to go do something stupid in order to convince the two ladies they are being stupid.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

It is only because Dany is being unreasonable and insisting that the IT come first.

The entire scene has Dany saying she won't leave the "3 Kingdoms" to Cersie so Jon/Tyrion are forced to concoct some way to force a truce and the only way they can come up with is capturing a wight.

Basically, if Dany could reassess the situation and do the "right" thing then none of this would be needed but since she is obsessed with sitting on the IT over and above anything.........and we know Cersie feels the same way as Dany......

The men have to go do something stupid in order to convince the two ladies they are being stupid.

I like that sentence.  Good insight.  Usually it's the men who are locking horns, and are too busy to listen.  This time it's the women.

It won't be that way for long.  Daenerys already pretty much believes, she is just torn and does not want to concede anything to Cersei.  And after she flies to the rescue this coming episode or the next one she will fully believe.  Even Cersei did not sound to incredulous on the subject when Jaime told her.  It's simply not in Cersei's interest to use any resources to assist her rival, not that she has many resources at this point to call upon.

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Posted (edited)

Why is everybody now willing to follow Tyrion's plan when only recently it was stated that he has failed in all previous ones? 

Edited by Deminelle

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31 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

Why is everybody now willing to follow Tyrion's plan when only recently it was stated that he has failed in all previous ones? 

As difficult as it is to admit, because I really like Tyrion, you do have a point.

"Enough with the harebrained plans!"

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