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Discussing Sansa XXXI: The plot thickens...


Mladen

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I dont think Arya meant Sansa should have beheaded those Lords at all just for disagreeing. She was more upset that Sansa didn't defend Jon more firmly. Her comments about Sansa liking nice things (which was a fair comment and even now, though Sansa has changed, still had truth to it) and about "not if they lose their heads" had more to do with her anger at Sansa for not defending Jon properly. Sansa's defence of Jon was weak and she knew it.

If Arya was serious about beheading them, then the writers have ruined her character beyond belief for the sake of Sansa.

Arya is not an idiot and nor is she just an assassin or warrior with no political skills. I hate how many show only watchers and even book readers say Arya has no leadership skills when in fact she has them in spades. Her methods and drive isnt focused in that direction, but Arya has a lot of qualities needed in a leader and indeed, in the books her character seems to be destined for some type of leader role, albeit likely a non-traditional one. She will likely be a champion of the smallfolk or common people.

Arya is supposed to be smart, cunning, empathetic, ruthless to her enemies and learning the ways of assassination, stealth, manipulation, lie detection, etc. BookArya certainly would be more than capable of handling herself in politics and dealing with the likes of Varys and LF. 

It really pisses me off how the showrunners are ruining the essence of Arya by just making her a badass fighter/assassin but not showing her other skills.

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1 hour ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I'm watching it right now

no way!!  So not fair!  Of course, seeing as I haven't gotten through all the threads for this episode I want to read, I guess I'd just as soon wait.  I really love all the discussion and speculation on here.  My husband says I'm gonna need an intervention for my addiction  LOL  ^_^

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On 14/8/2017 at 9:22 AM, Sand11751 said:

Yes, and strangely Cersei's hair hasn't grown since season 5. Or maybe she likes the short look. Hard to keep track of time.

I think its the later. Remember bookCersei has gender issues

On 14/8/2017 at 2:20 PM, TRILOGY said:

That's what we should be discussing: the final product, not some outdated outlines. 

2017 Show Canon Sansa: 

"I'm not trying to undermine you" "This isn't an invitation, it's a trap" "I wish Jon were here." "I hope he comes back soon." "Jon is our king." "How can you even think such a horrible thing?"

Sansa is loyal to her family, she likes being in charge and feeling useful, that's not the same as being power hungry. 

This

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10 hours ago, Pandean said:

OOh. I see.

Yeah, I'd agree.

I just hope the whole rilvary thing doesn't last long my gods

Me too.  I think given their past relationship and the polar opposite personalities, it would be unrealistic if they didn't have some period of conflict.  But since I have always been totally for House Stark I want them to all unite.

Something I just thought of, Jon left Sansa in charge.  If Arya respects Jon, she has to respect his decision as KitN unless she has definitive proof that Sansa is undermining Jon, which she doesn't have.

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1 hour ago, Gaz0680 said:

I dont think Arya meant Sansa should have beheaded those Lords at all just for disagreeing. She was more upset that Sansa didn't defend Jon more firmly. Her comments about Sansa liking nice things (which was a fair comment and even now, though Sansa has changed, still had truth to it) and about "not if they lose their heads" had more to do with her anger at Sansa for not defending Jon properly. Sansa's defence of Jon was weak and she knew it.

If Arya was serious about beheading them, then the writers have ruined her character beyond belief for the sake of Sansa.

Arya is not an idiot and nor is she just an assassin or warrior with no political skills. I hate how many show only watchers and even book readers say Arya has no leadership skills when in fact she has them in spades. Her methods and drive isnt focused in that direction, but Arya has a lot of qualities needed in a leader and indeed, in the books her character seems to be destined for some type of leader role, albeit likely a non-traditional one. She will likely be a champion of the smallfolk or common people.

Arya is supposed to be smart, cunning, empathetic, ruthless to her enemies and learning the ways of assassination, stealth, manipulation, lie detection, etc. BookArya certainly would be more than capable of handling herself in politics and dealing with the likes of Varys and LF. 

It really pisses me off how the showrunners are ruining the essence of Arya by just making her a badass fighter/assassin but not showing her other skills.

I agree, if they followed Arya's character development in the books, her skill set would be much broader, but I still don't recall her having developed any real acumen for politics.  She was heading toward a non-traditional leadership role, as you said.

As the show is presenting her though, I think you are giving her too much credit.

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8 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

It is perfectly obvious that Sansa doesn't want Jon to die at all.  She enjoys being listened to and proving her worth which is what she is doing.  She is serving Jon as best she can.  If Jon dies then she'd have all sorts of issues in the North.  Who'd lead her armies?

This scene was about Arya not understanding what has taken place or putting any value on being a leader/ruler/politician.

Arya says Sansa should have beheaded them.  It was a naive statement that came from thinking killing is the solution to any and everything.  Sansa responded as she should have by pointing out that you don't get people to follow you by killing everybody who disagrees with you.  Arya just wants revenge and to solve problems by killing this person or that person but you can't defeat the AoD without bringing people together and Sansa knows the best way to get people to follow you is by listening to them and showing them you hear and understand their concerns, even if you disagree.

Beheading Karstark cost Robb his head.  Arya should remember but maybe she doesn't even know how Robb lost the North and his head.

Sansa's skills at diplomacy (along with Jon) were what won back Winterfell.  Arya hasn't a clue what Sansa has been through or what she has done to save the family home.

Arya has been one of my favorite characters and this scene really gave her an added dimension.  The Starks will need diplomats and assassins to defeat their enemies.  Jon knows this.....Sansa knows it.......Arya is about to find out. 

I doubt Arya knows about Robb beheading Karstark.  She was at Harrenhal and then with the BwoB during that time.  She showed up at the Twins immediately after Robb was killed and just knows it was the Freys who killed him.

How do you figure it was Robb beheading Karstark that got him killed?  It was because he didn't marry Frey's granddaughter.  Unless that had something to do with why Bolton conspired with the Lannister and Freys to betray Robb, but I always got the impression he did that for his own gain.

Everything else you said I think you were spot on.

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29 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

i yhink

How do you figure it was Robb beheading Karstark that got him killed?  It was because he didn't marry Frey's granddaughter.  Unless that had something to do with why Bolton conspired with the Lannister and Freys to betray Robb, but I always got the impression he did that for his own gain.

Everything else you said I think you were spot on.

I think it's more of a cause and effect--Rob beheads Karstark, Karstark men leave. Robb's army is severely undermanned because both Frey and Karstark are gone. Robb now has to win Frey back. Etc.

So it was part of a chain of events that caused him to lose his head

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38 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

I agree, if they followed Arya's character development in the books, her skill set would be much broader, but I still don't recall her having developed any real acumen for politics.  She was heading toward a non-traditional leadership role, as you said.

As the show is presenting her though, I think you are giving her too much credit.

Arya's character was a lot more believable in the books. In the show it's almost like she's some omnipotent psychopathic vengeance god. 

 

I think that even even though she can apparently "read" people (have we ever seen her do that outside of the Game of Faces with the Waif though? It's not like she can play the GoF all the time considering it's a training method) she still has her emotions and judgements clouding a lot--that's why she couldn't really be No One.

So maybe Sansa does think about what would happen should Jon die (which is wise) but since the two of them had a very poor relationship in the beginning, Arya thinks Sansa is still the same. Hence "You always liked pretty things"

Sansa for her part did not really believe Arya at first but now I'm sure she's probably like "Who the fuck is this and what have they done to my sister?"

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Quote

"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."

This was said by Sansa in the trailer for season 7. This is the sole reason why I believe Sansa will remain loyal to her house and family. I doubt the plot circles around Sansa betraying her siblings, jumps the fence to the other side and then say this line. An alternative plot is her pretending to be on the side of her siblings, say that line and then end up betraying them. If for some reason, these plots really do happen, I'd say congrats to D&D for finally proving to us that the show is void of all logic and sense.

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24 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I think it's more of a cause and effect--Rob beheads Karstark, Karstark men leave. Robb's army is severely undermanned because both Frey and Karstark are gone. Robb now has to win Frey back. Etc.

So it was part of a chain of events that caused him to lose his head

Yeah, I can see that logic.

 

20 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Arya's character was a lot more believable in the books. In the show it's almost like she's some omnipotent psychopathic vengeance god. 

I think that even even though she can apparently "read" people (have we ever seen her do that outside of the Game of Faces with the Waif though? It's not like she can play the GoF all the time considering it's a training method) she still has her emotions and judgements clouding a lot--that's why she couldn't really be No One.

So maybe Sansa does think about what would happen should Jon die (which is wise) but since the two of them had a very poor relationship in the beginning, Arya thinks Sansa is still the same. Hence "You always liked pretty things"

Sansa for her part did not really believe Arya at first but now I'm sure she's probably like "Who the fuck is this and what have they done to my sister?"

Arya is emotionally very damaged (what Stark child sibling isn't?), and she never intended to truly become no one. She just had to convince Jaqen that she did, although clearly he wasn't. Her goal was always to learn how to kill so she could take revenge.

I believe Arya's comment about Sansa always liking nice things "because it made her feel better than everyone else" was an attempt to bait her. Old Sansa would have taken the bait and gotten all defensive. 

Knowing what Arya was always like, do you think Sansa was really all that surprised?  Aside from the fact of the level of her fighting skill of course.

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8 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

 

I believe Arya's comment about Sansa always liking nice things "because it made her feel better than everyone else" was an attempt to bait her.

That's quite a stretch.

Arya wasn't baiting Sansa. She was annoyed at her for not defending Jon better but the only reason she said that comment (her original response was "nothing") was because Sansa pressed her not to do that and to say what she meant.

And anyway, Arya's comment had a solid basis in fact. Sansa did (and does still) like nice things (and theres nothing inherently wrong with that) and she did like to feel better than others. Empathy, particularly for commoners or the downtrodden in that society, was never Sansa's strong suit, whereas it was Arya's.

However, I do agree Arya's comment was based on the Sansa she knew as a girl, not the woman Sansa.

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29 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Yeah, I can see that logic.

 

Arya is emotionally very damaged (what Stark child sibling isn't?), and she never intended to truly become no one. She just had to convince Jaqen that she did, although clearly he wasn't. Her goal was always to learn how to kill so she could take revenge.

I believe Arya's comment about Sansa always liking nice things "because it made her feel better than everyone else" was an attempt to bait her. Old Sansa would have taken the bait and gotten all defensive. 

Knowing what Arya was always like, do you think Sansa was really all that surprised?  Aside from the fact of the level of her fighting skill of course.

I agree with that.

I mean, if I were Sansa I'd still be pretty surprised.

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Oh, I know she was annoyed at Sansa because she thought Sansa could have defended Jon better. No doubt about that.  I thought it was a good scene to illustrate that they still see each other largely as they did as children.

We know Sansa grew up having this fairy tale idea of life, and I always interpreted her enjoying nice things was just a part of that.  She had every reason to believe that she would be the lady of a great house some day.  Maybe this fed a desire to be better than everyone, I just didn't get that from the show (and I haven't read the books since before season 5), although you are correct about empathy for commoners not being a particularly strong trait in Sansa. 

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3 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

no way!!  So not fair!  Of course, seeing as I haven't gotten through all the threads for this episode I want to read, I guess I'd just as soon wait.  I really love all the discussion and speculation on here.  My husband says I'm gonna need an intervention for my addiction  LOL  ^_^

Ok, my advice : stay away of youtube please until sunday, people already uplodad scenes from the episode there

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6 hours ago, Pandean said:

 

i just thought it was a coinidence and funny considering some people--not even Dany's actions. Sorry I shouldn't have said anything. It was dumb. I don't want to upset anyone or seem like a jackoff

Oh, sorry... I didn't mean to sound as if I am saying that the post was dumb of anything. You can't upset me with Dany, but with Sansa :D 

The thing is that there is a theme to North v South in this season, where Northerners are preparing for the Apocalypse and South is still entrenched in the political struggles. I don't think you are completely wrong about this, just that South is in perpetuum mobile with the games. I believe Dany will be able to break that vicious circle.

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FRIENDLY REMINDER: DISCUSSING LEAKED MATERIALS IS STRICTLY FORBIDDEN ACCORDING TO THE BOARD RULES. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM DISCUSSING IT, OR USING SPOILERS FROM THE EPISODE. A LOT OF PEOPLE WORKED ON THIS SHOW. LET WE RESPECT THEIR EFFORT AND WAIT FOR THAT DISCUSSION UNTIL SUNDAY. 

 

(not yelling, just announcing :D )

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4 hours ago, Risto said:

Oh, sorry... I didn't mean to sound as if I am saying that the post was dumb of anything. You can't upset me with Dany, but with Sansa :D 

The thing is that there is a theme to North v South in this season, where Northerners are preparing for the Apocalypse and South is still entrenched in the political struggles. I don't think you are completely wrong about this, just that South is in perpetuum mobile with the games. I believe Dany will be able to break that vicious circle.

No you're good. I've just been told (mainly by my mother) that I normally shouldn't say things I think because I'm offensive, uncultured, and uh yeah.

 

so I tend to apologize a lot if I think I said something dumb.

 

Yeah. And it's not like the South is formally led by the best ruler. TBH I was moreso speaking of a certain golden haired psychopath.

 

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4 hours ago, Risto said:

FRIENDLY REMINDER: DISCUSSING LEAKED MATERIALS IS STRICTLY FORBIDDEN ACCORDING TO THE BOARD RULES. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM DISCUSSING IT, OR USING SPOILERS FROM THE EPISODE. A LOT OF PEOPLE WORKED ON THIS SHOW. LET WE RESPECT THEIR EFFORT AND WAIT FOR THAT DISCUSSION UNTIL SUNDAY. 

 

(not yelling, just announcing :D )

Gotcha!

 

its funny when ep 4 leaked I heard it still got one of the biggest viewership to date

which is not me saying let's leak everything but me being astounded by the amount of fans

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