Discussing Sansa XXXI: The plot thickens...

[Pandean]

1 hour ago, Lord Okra said:

I think what is going on in the show is perfectly in line with the characters in the show.

Arya and Sansa in every scene they had were fussing with each other.  Way back in season 1....they made it perfectly clear that these two do not get along at all.

Then, Arya makes comments about Sansa several times throughout the series later on.  She needed to get back to this person and that person......oh, yeah....Sansa too I guess.  She has never let go of her grudge with Sansa.  The show did establish an Arya/Sansa dislike/grudge in the scenes they were together early (every single one of them).  And Arya continued to express her disapproval of Sansa throughout the series when they were apart (Ned defending Sansa to Arya/Arya reluctant to include Sansa with her other family).

Arya and Sansa didn't like each other in the show.

They are finally back together but Arya still holds this grudge (which is really in line with the character they have portrayed).  And, it all makes sense in the show universe.

They had a sibling rivalry/grudge which happens all the time.  They weren't close....they didn't "love" each other.  Now, they are back together and Arya is still influenced by her past dislike of Sansa.  Of course, in Arya's defense......she doesn't know anything about what Sansa has been through or who Sansa is today.

Drama's need conflict and this is the sibling conflict that is adding to the drama and providing a way for Sansa/Arya to finally come together.

Arya thinks Sansa is being manipulated by LF but, in the end, we are going to see that it is Sansa who has been manipulating LF since that scene with Brienne/Sansa/LF where Sansa said she could have him killed right now.

Sansa truly believes that "nobody can protect anyone."  So, she is doing her best to gather some power finally so that she can protect herself the only way she knows how (she isn't a trained assassin) which is by manipulating the people around her into positions that favor her.  She doesn't trust LF and that is why she only called for his help after Jon pushed forward on Winterfell.  Sansa wanted to do it without LF but she didn't get the support from the North like she thought she would so, in the end......she called on LF as a last resort.

Ever since then she has been using LF's obsession with her to maintain influence over the Knights of the Vale.  She's explained this to numerous people on the show repeatedly.  Sansa is using the tools and opportunities that present themselves to her.

If it plays out like they have set it up then Sansa will be able to secure the Vale without LF and that will open her up to offing him finally (something she'd done long ago if she didn't actually need his army).

Sansa learned to play the game by watching LF/Cersie and she is using what she learned to defeat her enemies.

Everything you've said here. I feel like Arya is a character ruled by her judgments, impressions, and emotions.

[Ser Hyle]

22 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Bran has said several times that he can't control his powers and doesn't know how to use them yet.  He claims he needs to practice so he'll be ready for when the Night King comes.

Given that Bran has admitted he isn't all seeing......all knowing.....yet......I think the show has created a plausible scenario whereby Bran can't just expose every threat and every issue as needed....on demand.

You say that the show should demonstrate it......they did.....Bran basically flat out said as much (at least once but I believe he said it twice for those who missed it the first time).

Nope. I'm sorry - they don't get off that easy.

1. "Oh hey Sansa, long time no see (here's where I should reveal I know something about her I shouldn't know, so she'll spare me hours of boring stories)! By the way, I watched you get raped on your wedding night."

2. "Oh hey Arya, long time no see (here's where I should reveal I know something about her I shouldn't know, so she'll spare me hours of boring stories)! Last I checked in on you, you were on a stopover at the Crossroads Inn before heading to King's Landing to kill the Queen."

3. (Here's where I need to show Littflefinger he can't manipulate me by revealing I know something about him I shouldn't know) "Chaos is a ladder."

These reveals have been so convenient for Bran, despite him telling you he was still learning and not yet 'all knowing', wouldn't you go check with him to see if he has some insight into other matters that were currently of importance to you? Wouldn't you spend a lot of time with him trying to learn what he knows? You would instead just think 'nawww, Bran said he's still got some learnin' to do, why bother?' and go follow Littlefinger from the shadows?

 

[Ser Hyle]

2 hours ago, Pandean said:

It's also funny how most Sansa haters seem to really love Arya and think she can do no wrong.

Much like Camp Dany vs. Camp Jon. 

[Lord Okra]

13 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said:

Nope. I'm sorry - they don't get off that easy.

1. "Oh hey Sansa, long time no see (here's where I should reveal I know something about her I shouldn't know, so she'll spare me hours of boring stories)! By the way, I watched you get raped on your wedding night."

2. "Oh hey Arya, long time no see (here's where I should reveal I know something about her I shouldn't know, so she'll spare me hours of boring stories)! Last I checked in on you, you were on a stopover at the Crossroads Inn before heading to King's Landing to kill the Queen."

3. (Here's where I need to show Littflefinger he can't manipulate me by revealing I know something about him I shouldn't know) "Chaos is a ladder."

These reveals have been so convenient for Bran, despite him telling you he was still learning and not yet 'all knowing', wouldn't you go check with him to see if he has some insight into other matters that were currently of importance to you? Wouldn't you spend a lot of time with him trying to learn what he knows? You would instead just think 'nawww, Bran said he's still got some learnin' to do, why bother?' and go follow Littlefinger from the shadows?

 

You are making my point for me.

Bran thought Arya would go to King's Landing.  Why?

He's the all seeing all knowing three eye'd raven I thought......apparently he is not.

He can see some things but it is a jumbled mess that he can't make sense of because........and they established this next fact on show......Bran is not ready to be the three eye'd raven.  He isn't trained.  He simply doesn't have the powers the people on this forum believe he has right now.

They've spelled that out very clearly on the show using multiple scenes.

Feel free to ignore them all if you like though.

[LucyMormont]

2 hours ago, Pandean said:

I feel like Sansa is probably one of the most polarizing characters in GoT. But seriously, the amount of haters who jump on the littlest thing about her character...is getting ridiculous.

 

I think it has to do with as how child Sansa is portrayed, as the (comparatively) less loyal and most selfish of all the Stark children. And while it's clear that she is not that stupid selfish girl anymore, the show still has made her do stupid and inconsistet things (or smart, scheeming and equally inconsistent things) in the last 3 seasons that are not fully explained, and that can be interpreted in different ways in relation to her possible motivations, like

1) She voluntarily married Ramsay Bolton, giving legitimacy to her brother's (and king!) murderers  claim over Winterfell.

2) She hid from Jon the possible arrival of the Vale army in the Battle of the Bastards. She later said to Jon "I'm sorry, I should have told you" , but never explained why she didn't.

3) She questioned Jon in public, before his bannermen. That's not the way to show a united front.

4) She has Littlefinger around. From Arya's point of view, "we need the Vale" is a poor explanation. LF is her family's enemy, she remembers him very well from Harrenhal, and the Vale knights don't need LF to support the Starks. 

 

 

 

[Ser Hyle]

25 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

You are making my point for me.

Bran thought Arya would go to King's Landing.  Why?

He's the all seeing all knowing three eye'd raven I thought......apparently he is not.

He can see some things but it is a jumbled mess that he can't make sense of because........and they established this next fact on show......Bran is not ready to be the three eye'd raven.  He isn't trained.  He simply doesn't have the powers the people on this forum believe he has right now.

They've spelled that out very clearly on the show using multiple scenes.

Feel free to ignore them all if you like though.

Dude, I'm not the other people you're conflating me with who think Bran is omnipotent. I never said anything like that. Do yourself a favour and read what you're replying to.

He thought she was heading to KL because he hadn't checked in on her since that was the plan at the Crossroads, that's why. How that's proof that it would be useless to ask him about other events/people of critical importance makes no sense.

Bran doesn't need to be the 3ER to provide a little insight into Littlefinger and what he's up to. The show already confirmed with 'chaos is a ladder' that he knows things about LF. Since both Arya and Sansa both know LF will always be scheming, so much so that Arya has taken to spying on him from the shadows, it would only make sense she would go to Bran and see if he knows what the prick has been up to lately.

Saying that he's not ready to be the 3ER and not knowing everything, doesn't mean he doesn't already know a lot of shit. So back to the questions you ignored, I'll assume that if you were Arya or Sansa, you wouldn't bother asking Bran about important shit he might have insight into because he told you he was still learning. Smart move.

 

[Illiterati]

22 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said:

Dude, I'm not the other people you're conflating me with who think Bran is omnipotent. I never said anything like that. Do yourself a favour and read what you're replying to.

He thought she was heading to KL because he hadn't checked in on her since that was the plan at the Crossroads, that's why. How that's proof that it would be useless to ask him about other events/people of critical importance makes no sense.

Bran doesn't need to be the 3ER to provide a little insight into Littlefinger and what he's up to. The show already confirmed with 'chaos is a ladder' that he knows things about LF. Since both Arya and Sansa both know LF will always be scheming, so much so that Arya has taken to spying on him from the shadows, it would only make sense she would go to Bran and see if he knows what the prick has been up to lately.

Saying that he's not ready to be the 3ER and not knowing everything, doesn't mean he doesn't already know a lot of shit. So back to the questions you ignored, I'll assume that if you were Arya or Sansa, you wouldn't bother asking Bran about important shit he might have insight into because he told you he was still learning. Smart move.

 

The all just need to learn GQL (Greenseer Query Language).  It's simply a matter of asking the right questions.

[Kbelle89]

I was really excited for Stark reunions to happen, especially Arya and Sansa. However I am sort of disappointed so far in how their interactions since then have played out. I know we have two episodes left and a lot can still happen, but this is still how I feel.  I know lots of people are explaining Arya's attitude towards Sansa as her still holding grudges and looking at her through a lens of when they were children. I just don't like that the writers have chosen to go in this direction. If she can forgive the Hound with everything that's happened since King's Landing, certainly Arya should be able to look at Sansa differently especially since being away from her for so long. At this point they physically have each other there to sit down and explain everything that has happened to each of them, and what each of them has gone through. There should be no ambiguity between the two because they can go to each other as a source for information. Also the mistrust between Arya has of Sansa is disappointing.

After all that's happened to Arya and Sansa, if I were them my family would be the only people I trust period at this point. I think Arya should be a little more compassionate and understanding towards Sansa and she should be mature enough to understand that if she isn't the same person she was since she left King's Landing why should she believe Sansa is still the same person? If it wasn't  partly for Sansa, Arya wouldn't have Winterfell to come home to. I hope these developments will come forth in the next few episodes but so far I think it's poor character development if we are just getting an adult rehashing of the same relationship Sansa and Arya had as kids. It's harder to be happy about Stark reunions if they are just going to be cold or hostile to one another. It also makes it harder to feel like they learned their lessons, that you are supposed to be loyal to your family first, and not to let people drive wedges between them because that is partly why many of the other Starks died. I hope the dynamic between them changes to something more positive in the episodes to come.

[Mladen]

41 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

I think it has to do with as how child Sansa is portrayed, as the (comparatively) less loyal and most selfish of all the Stark children. And while it's clear that she is not that stupid selfish girl anymore, the show still has made her do stupid and inconsistet things (or smart, scheeming and equally inconsistent things) in the last 3 seasons that are not fully explained, and that can be interpreted in different ways in relation to her possible motivations, like

1) She voluntarily married Ramsay Bolton, giving legitimacy to her brother's (and king!) murderers  claim over Winterfell.

2) She hid from Jon the possible arrival of the Vale army in the Battle of the Bastards. She later said to Jon "I'm sorry, I should have told you" , but never explained why she didn't.

3) She questioned Jon in public, before his bannermen. That's not the way to show a united front.

4) She has Littlefinger around. From Arya's point of view, "we need the Vale" is a poor explanation. LF is her family's enemy, she remembers him very well from Harrenhal, and the Vale knights don't need LF to support the Starks. 

But, Arya never questioned either of those. Her problem was with Sansa doing the most reasonable thing and of course, being in master chamber of WF. Those are Arya's points. And that is why they are so incredibly stupid.

[Illiterati]

3 minutes ago, Risto said:

But, Arya never questioned either of those. Her problem was with Sansa doing the most reasonable thing and of course, being in master chamber of WF. Those are Arya's points. And that is why they are so incredibly stupid.

And also why I believe it was all acting to flush out LF.

[Pandean]

12 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

And also why I believe it was all acting to flush out LF.

I don't know why but I have a very hard time believing the 'acting' theory.

[Mladen]

14 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

And also why I believe it was all acting to flush out LF.

It is an interesting thought, I have to say. I am not sure about it, but it would be awesome. 

[Lord Okra]

58 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said:

Dude, I'm not the other people you're conflating me with who think Bran is omnipotent. I never said anything like that. Do yourself a favour and read what you're replying to.

He thought she was heading to KL because he hadn't checked in on her since that was the plan at the Crossroads, that's why. How that's proof that it would be useless to ask him about other events/people of critical importance makes no sense.

Bran doesn't need to be the 3ER to provide a little insight into Littlefinger and what he's up to. The show already confirmed with 'chaos is a ladder' that he knows things about LF. Since both Arya and Sansa both know LF will always be scheming, so much so that Arya has taken to spying on him from the shadows, it would only make sense she would go to Bran and see if he knows what the prick has been up to lately.

Saying that he's not ready to be the 3ER and not knowing everything, doesn't mean he doesn't already know a lot of shit. So back to the questions you ignored, I'll assume that if you were Arya or Sansa, you wouldn't bother asking Bran about important shit he might have insight into because he told you he was still learning. Smart move.

 

My apologies for conflating you with others.

My point about him non knowing she was coming back even though she spent a month coming back is that Bran isn't seeing everything and even what he sees.....he doesn't understand some of it.

As far as providing insight into LF and what he's up to.  What makes you think Bran is concentrating his powers on LF's scheming?  We can easily just assume that Bran hasn't focused his powers on LF (he's got bigger fish to fry) and even if he has.....he doesn't see inside LF's mind but only sees LF's actions.......he's talking up Sansa to the other Lords.....he's requesting stuff for Sansa......he's just getting a generic picture not the intended outcome LF is seeking to produce.

Plus, the show tells us that Bran is not "Bran" anyway.  They spent several scenes showing just how disconnected Bran is from his family and friends.  How he doesn't hold the emotional attachments that he once held.

Or....let's go with another option...

Maybe Bran can see how it is all playing out and he sees that some things must happen for the defeat of the AoD.  Perhaps he's seen he needs to let Arya/Sansa have this little spat because it will lead to something that must happen so he is not interfering.

Also, Bran hasn't been nearly the major character on show that Sansa/Arya have been so why would the show writers take Sansa/Arya potential storylines away from them only so Bran (who has been one of he more minor characters in show) can just swoop in and give them all the answers quick and easy?  That'd make no sense from a writer's perspective.

The way the story has been developed over 6 years leads to this drama between Sansa/Arya which makes for good tv.  Having Arya go to Bran right off to get answers means....

1) No chance to observe Arya using her spy skills....gets cut

2) No chance for LF to have one big last plot before his demise.......gets cut

3) No chance for Sansa to show her continued growth into a savvy politician on the level of LF......if that happens

Bottom line, it would be bad tv and especially bad given the way they built this story.

Bran may come in to stop Arya/Sansa from going at each other's throats but I hope not because that truly would be bad writing because it makes Sansa and Arya's growth over the years meaningless which would be terrible. I don't think it will play out that way though because the writers didn't spend the last six years building up Sansa/Arya only to have them not use anything they've learned at the end.

[LucyMormont]

36 minutes ago, Risto said:

But, Arya never questioned either of those. Her problem was with Sansa doing the most reasonable thing and of course, being in master chamber of WF. Those are Arya's points. And that is why they are so incredibly stupid.

My comment  was meant as a possible explanation of why Sansa gets  hate from some fans, not  as to why Arya shows a clear distrust towards her. 

[Lord Okra]

5 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

My comment  was meant as a possible explanation of why Sansa gets  hate from some fans, not  as to why Arya shows a clear distrust towards her. 

Imo, Sansa didn't answer the question because she was seeing old Arya so she was responding sorta like old Sansa would......

Sansa thought bubble: "I don't have to explain myself to you.  Your accusations aren't worthy of a significant response.  Be mad little sis."

Basically it was the whole.....these accusations are so stupid and your advice is so immature and lame......why bother?

[Illiterati]

The truth is, as Lady of Winterfell, Arya's accusations were NOT worthy of a response.  To defend herself would be stripping herself of authority.

[Mladen]

13 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

My comment  was meant as a possible explanation of why Sansa gets  hate from some fans, not  as to why Arya shows a clear distrust towards her. 

The reasons why people hate Sansa are numerous. Books or TV show, you can just pick the reason why you should hate this character. The said hatred persists even when we have situations like this, when we know she is objectively on the right side of the argument. But, that doesn't matter, because for some, Sansa sucks. And that is the end of debate.

This very thread, which is now in its 31st edition was in the third season when we had the situation that the tragedy Sansa will endure during the wedding with Tyrion will be mitigated by his own reluctance to marry her. And we were right. Not only that in the show, Tyrion was forced to marry her, but he also comes to her before the wedding. So, one of the rare moments that Sansa showed independence in the books (not kneeling for Tyrion) was discarded because it would make her look like a monster who is refusing Tyrion for the sake of gay man. And 31 episode later, here we are. That is the constant theme of Sansa's arc. She can't be badass, because that is not Stark way. No one said anything when Arya killed Walder, but we had extensive debate about Sansa killing Ramsay. I feel that it is a pointless task to try to make anyone like anything, but we can just try to point out how many misconceptions are related to Sansa. And that is what this thread serves for. To at least try to shed some positive light on our ginger Stark

[Pandean]

18 minutes ago, Risto said:

The reasons why people hate Sansa are numerous. Books or TV show, you can just pick the reason why you should hate this character. The said hatred persists even when we have situations like this, when we know she is objectively on the right side of the argument. But, that doesn't matter, because for some, Sansa sucks. And that is the end of debate.

This very thread, which is now in its 31st edition was in the third season when we had the situation that the tragedy Sansa will endure during the wedding with Tyrion will be mitigated by his own reluctance to marry her. And we were right. Not only that in the show, Tyrion was forced to marry her, but he also comes to her before the wedding. So, one of the rare moments that Sansa showed independence in the books (not kneeling for Tyrion) was discarded because it would make her look like a monster who is refusing Tyrion for the sake of gay man. And 31 episode later, here we are. That is the constant theme of Sansa's arc. She can't be badass, because that is not Stark way. No one said anything when Arya killed Walder, but we had extensive debate about Sansa killing Ramsay. I feel that it is a pointless task to try to make anyone like anything, but we can just try to point out how many misconceptions are related to Sansa. And that is what this thread serves for. To at least try to shed some positive light on our ginger Stark

I feel like no matter what you say there will still be people who are like that. Especially if you're comparing Arya and Sansa's plot line. Arya got perverse glee from the way she killed Meryn Trant and Walder Frey which was fine. Sansa getting satisfaction from Ramsay's death? Psycho bitch.

Also, I never noticed that about the whole Tyrion/Sansa wedding in the show. But it makes sense. The relationship between the two was a lot more friendly. And Tyrion didn't almost rape her.

[LucyMormont]

2 hours ago, Risto said:

I feel that it is a pointless task to try to make anyone like anything, but we can just try to point out how many misconceptions are related to Sansa. And that is what this thread serves for. To at least try to shed some positive light on our ginger Stark

Well, I am team Stark in this story, and she is one, so I'll always find good things in her. However I must admit that of all the siblings (and I count Jon among them), she is the one I like the least. On second thought, the new Bran is not my favorite either.

But you're right, people is too harsh on her, and often too quickly in expecting the worst of her. I recall some episodes ago, that some fans were expecting her to go bitter and angry at Bran's arrival, and I was like "no, she will be very happy to see her brother again, she is not the power hungry bitch you think she is"

2 hours ago, Pandean said:

Especially if you're comparing Arya and Sansa's plot line. Arya got perverse glee from the way she killed Meryn Trant and Walder Frey which was fine. Sansa getting satisfaction from Ramsay's death? Psycho bitch.

The three of them had it coming, and it felt like justice to me.  Nonetheless, there is a difference. Arya killed Trent for what he did to Sirio, and the Freys for what they did to her family. It shows her fierce  loyalty, it does not have to be herself the person hurt. On the other side, Sansa kills her own "offender".

[Lerxst]

Sansa should have died long ago... my opinion at least. She has to be the least likable character, who brings the least with her to any plot of the story. The one and only thing she has is her surname, and that's the only thing Littlefinger likes about her as well.

The fact that she's now throwing a potential wrench in Jon's plans is adding insult.