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U.S. Politics: I Did Nazi That Coming


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1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

You can see which parts of his base Trump is appealing to with this. 

But is he actually all that wrong in what he said? There are people to blame on all sides for this ( not equally I grant) , and not everyone marching was a nazi, and the media hasn't been entirely neutral in its reporting either.  

Clearly he needed to condemn the kkk and racist elements whilst still not alienating the right's concerns

 

 

Yes he was totally wrong.

I'm usually someone who tries to look at things from more than just one side. But there can be no hedging in the condemnation of the white supremacists and those who joined with them. Their message must be rebuked 100% in this particular case, no wriggle room allowed, a proper leader would have done that.

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1 hour ago, drawkcabi said:

Yes he was totally wrong.

I'm usually someone who tries to look at things from more than just one side. But there can be no hedging in the condemnation of the white supremacists and those who joined with them. Their message must be rebuked 100% in this particular case, no wriggle room allowed, a proper leader would have done that.

The Nazi organizers of this march straight up said that they feel emboldened to come off of the internet and step out into the streets now, and that this March is just the beginning.  They also said that they are willing to kill people to get their way. Which means that we either smack them down now or face a much larger, very violent, and well armed problem quicker than you can say Hail Hitler.  

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Well this is interesting. The irony of course is that Shitbird who wrote Liberal Facism is now lamenting how conservatives made common cause with the alt right ie white nationalist and fascist. Looks like liberalism, whatever it’s faults might be, isn’t the one that has the fascist problem.

Though, I just have to say, none of this surprising. Mainstream conservatism has been going down an intellectual shithole for years. One would have hoped that after the massive policy failures of Dubya, it would have taken a bit of stock and tried to clean up it’s act. But, nope, it’s just got nuttier and nuttier.

And of course it’s always played with white resentment politics. With things like “Obama the sooper seekrit Mooslim that hates America” and blaming financial crises on poor minority people and “the food stamp president” etc, etc. A lot of conservatives just gulped that shit down, like it was the best thing ever.

And then of course there is the issue that with conservatism acknowledging facts was optional. No one really ought to be surprised that conservatism has reached this sorry ass state.

You’d hope that mainstream conservatism would turn hard on the alt right, but I’m not holding my breath.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-goldberg-altright-20170814-story.html

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Last year around this time (and the year before that), I was arguing with some of my fellow conservatives about the insanity of finding any common cause whatsoever with the so-called alt-right. The issue wasn’t that every avowed nationalist who claimed membership in the alt-right was a Nazi or Klansman. It was that the alt-right was open to Nazis and Klansmen. And why wouldn’t these newly-minted white supremacists welcome such pioneering organizations to their cause?

Right-wing cynics, hucksters and opportunists deliberately blurred these distinctions in the name of a right-wing popular front. Steve Bannon, now a White House consigliere, is by most accounts not a bigot in his personal dealings. But when he ran Breitbart.com he had no problem making it a “platform” for the alt-right. Internet entertainer Milo Yiannopoulos was a Breitbart star for his defenses of the alt-right and its supposedly hilarious Holocaust jokes. He was only let go (and disinvited from the Conservative Political Action Conference) when it was revealed he was equally broadminded about some expressions of pedophilia as he was about some expressions of Nazism.

 

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Everyone there WAS a Nazi, KKK, WS etc. or a sympathizer, no decent person could march alongside those people. Trump specifically mentioned the "peaceful" protest Friday night, the one where rabid racist marched with tiki torches shouting hateful slogans. There is no such thing as a peaceful protest celebrating violent ideology.

I would also say Conferderate sympathizers of all stripes are assholes, I don't care how much of the South is included in that sweeping condemnation. I look at someone who praises the heritage of the Confederacy the same way I would look at a German who would say Nazi Germany wasn't all bad, or a South African who longingly reminisced about Apartheid.

And Fuck all this bullshit about statues and monuments being important conveyors of history. When most people see a monument of a person, they think the figure is being celebrated, and they were when the statue was built. Confederate monuments were erected as a means of rewriting history well after the war was over. They were also an effective means of terrorizing black citizens to remind them where they were and where the South's sympathies still stood. Confederate statues in Union states ate just absurd. If statues are merely historical, let us put up staues of Hitler and Osama, they are after all significant historical figures.

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Today in:

So much for the "celebrating our history" argument.

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/08/the-real-story-of-all-those-confederate-statues/

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This illustrates something that even a lot of liberals don’t always get. Most of these monuments were not erected after the Civil War. In fact, all the way to 1890 there were very few statues or monuments dedicated to Confederate leaders. Most of them were built much later. And since I’m not an academic, I feel comfortable squeezing this history into a very short, oversimplified summary:

 

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One thing I (as a non-American) always found bizarre about the worship of Confederate generals is the fact that these men were, literally, traitors. Sure, they were shown enormous amounts of leniency after the war for reasons of healing and reconciliation, and I can understand that. But erecting and maintaining monuments to them in public spaces? Imagine public monuments to Benedict Arnold or Robert Hanssen (who, by the way, did far less damage to their country).

And the people defending them are often at the same time super-patriots with giant US flags in their yards. Like I said, bizarre.

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4 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

You can see which parts of his base Trump is appealing to with this. 

But is he actually all that wrong in what he said? There are people to blame on all sides for this ( not equally I grant) , and not everyone marching was a nazi, and the media hasn't been entirely neutral in its reporting either.  

Clearly he needed to condemn the kkk and racist elements whilst still not alienating the right's concerns

 

 

Everyone marching was fine with joining open nazis, and as such are indistinguishable from nazis.

Trump in saying there were good people there is condoning nazis, and as such very very wrong.

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7 hours ago, S John said:

It doesn't add too much to the thread just to chime in about Trump's astounding idiocy, but I'm gonna do it anyway.

If there is one thing that Trump should understand it is that the electorate has a short attention span, he would never have gotten elected otherwise.  His statement on Sunday about Charlottesville, while notably late, was a pretty adequate condemnation of white supremacists groups.  So then WHY, for the love of God did he go off message at that press conference today.  All he had to do was tell the reporter that he had made a statement yesterday and that he was there to discuss infrastructure.  Give the 24/7 news cycle a few days to move onto the next thing.  Instead he goes completely off message and walks back the strong condemnation of the day before.  Sure, had he skirted the question some would complain that he didn't press Sunday's message home, but thats still a hell of a lot better than shooting himself in the foot.

I know Trump lacks discipline, but this was pretty astounding.  And it begs the question - why keep this (and his response to it) in the news?  Why extend the life of this story?  It's a strategically terrible move and makes it seem like he felt that his statement Sunday was too one-sided and he fears losing the vote of white supremacists.  Trump certainly lacks situational awareness, but this was so bad that it can't be just that.  He knows damn well those were Trump voters out there and just can't bring himself to condemn in no uncertain terms.  

Preaching to the choir around here, but man has Trump turned out to be even worse at this job than my extremely low expectations.  The last couple weeks have been absolutely terrible.  I shudder to even imagine what could befall this country in the next ~ 3 1/2 years under this guy's leadership.

I agree with everything you've said.  But, I doubt Trump will complete the full term as President.  I think one of three things will happen, he will be removed from office by Congress, he will resign due to some bizarre an disgraceful action that he undertakes or condones (to prevent impeachment and removal from office), or he will resign to take his cookies and go home claiming that "the Deep State" hates him.  The sooner he is out of the Oval Office, the better for all of us.

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32 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I agree with everything you've said.  But, I doubt Trump will complete the full term as President.  I think one of three things will happen, he will be removed from office by Congress, he will resign due to some bizarre an disgraceful action that he undertakes or condones (to prevent impeachment and removal from office), or he will resign to take his cookies and go home claiming that "the Deep State" hates him.  The sooner he is out of the Oval Office, the better for all of us.

I don't see it unfortunately. Trump has no shame, he is entirely ego and narcissism, he will never leave office voluntarily. And I just don't see Congress impeaching him (or at least, I don't see there being the 2/3rds senate majority to convict; House Democrats may impeach if they win the midterms) based on any words the President says, no matter what the effect the words have.

The only way I think Congress impeaches Trump is due to some direct action of his, and he's generally too much of a coward to ever act directly; he says shit and lets bad things happen through inaction. So pretty much the only way I see Congress impeaching is if Trump vetoes whatever debt ceiling deal Congress ends up passing and there aren't the House votes to override the veto; then I could see impeachment happening to prevent a breach. Maybe.

Otherwise, I think Trump is only gone if the Cabinet and Pence go 25th amendment on him. That still requires Congress to act, but it is a much easier vote because Republicans have cover from the Cabinet and Pence acting first. And I have no sense at all of how close the Cabinet might be to revolting like that; I suspect it's pretty far though.

In general, the best hope is that Congress further contains Trump. They actually already have done this to a fair extent; Trump's been frozen out of policy discussions, he was directly rebuked with the Russia sanctions, his policy agenda (where it isn't also the pre-existing Republican agenda; so stuff like the border wall and his proposed cuts to agencies that Republicans like) has been going nowhere, and the senate has been leading a credible investigation of his Russia ties (though mostly overshadowed by Mueller's work). There is more they can do, such as forcing various top officials to spend all their time testifying before Congress and therefore preventing them from getting anything done, and I think we will see more of that. But that's mostly behind-the-scenes stuff that the Republican base will never hear about or fully understand; impeachment is much more public and understandable. Unfortunately, while things like that can prevent Trump actions, they don't do anything to stop the harms caused by his inactions or his words.

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3 minutes ago, Fez said:

I don't see it unfortunately. Trump has no shame, he is entirely ego and narcissism, he will never leave office voluntarily. And I just don't see Congress impeaching him (or at least, I don't see there being the 2/3rds senate majority to convict; House Democrats may impeach if they win the midterms) based on any words the President says, no matter what the effect the words have.

The only way I think Congress impeaches Trump is due to some direct action of his, and he's generally too much of a coward to ever act directly; he says shit and lets bad things happen through inaction. So pretty much the only way I see Congress impeaching is if Trump vetoes whatever debt ceiling deal Congress ends up passing and there aren't the House votes to override the veto; then I could see impeachment happening to prevent a breach. Maybe.

Otherwise, I think Trump is only gone if the Cabinet and Pence go 25th amendment on him. That still requires Congress to act, but it is a much easier vote because Republicans have cover from the Cabinet and Pence acting first. And I have no sense at all of how close the Cabinet might be to revolting like that; I suspect it's pretty far though.

In general, the best hope is that Congress further contains Trump. They actually already have done this to a fair extent; Trump's been frozen out of policy discussions, he was directly rebuked with the Russia sanctions, his policy agenda (where it isn't also the pre-existing Republican agenda; so stuff like the border wall and his proposed cuts to agencies that Republicans like) has been going nowhere, and the senate has been leading a credible investigation of his Russia ties (though mostly overshadowed by Mueller's work). There is more they can do, such as forcing various top officials to spend all their time testifying before Congress and therefore preventing them from getting anything done, and I think we will see more of that. But that's mostly behind-the-scenes stuff that the Republican base will never hear about or fully understand; impeachment is much more public and understandable. Unfortunately, while things like that can prevent Trump actions, they don't do anything to stop the harms caused by his inactions or his words.

Interesting.  May I share your perspective elsewhere?

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1 hour ago, Gorn said:

One thing I (as a non-American) always found bizarre about the worship of Confederate generals is the fact that these men were, literally, traitors. Sure, they were shown enormous amounts of leniency after the war for reasons of healing and reconciliation, and I can understand that. But erecting and maintaining monuments to them in public spaces? Imagine public monuments to Benedict Arnold or Robert Hanssen (who, by the way, did far less damage to their country).

And the people defending them are often at the same time super-patriots with giant US flags in their yards. Like I said, bizarre.

They weren't actually erected as monuments to heroes. They've become mythologized over time, but we've chosen to forget the truth. Most of them were erected in the 1920's onward with new Jim Crow laws so those uppity blacks didn't get the idea that their situation was improving, and leaving no doubt as to who was in charge. A new round of statues went up in the 1960's and coincided with the Civil Rights Movement. 

The Confederacy committed treason against the United States, and no one more than Robert E. Lee. Some Southerners still worship these guys because they still can't get over the fact that they lost. They still regard the US government as an invading and occupying army. They want to continue the fight, not reconcile. Fortunately, those people are dying off, but there is still a hardcore group that really thinks that's a great idea. 

Yes, we should honor our history, but we need to square with it first. 

 

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I hate hate the comparison of confederate monuments to Founding Fathers like Washington and Jefferson.  When you make a monument to Washington it is to celebrate the fact that he helped found the country, defeated the British, didn't make himself King.  Or Jefferson for writing the Declaration of Independence and helping with the Constitution.  While they owned slaves, that isn't what those monuments are about - it's just unfortunate baggage that often comes with history (just like plenty of 20th century Presidents like Wilson and FDR and Nixon were racists).  In contrast, what did Lee or Stuart or Forrest do that we are celebrating?  Open rebellion against the government for the sake of slavery.  That is what they are famous, they have no other significant accomplishments to point to. 

(Sort of a sidebar, but whatever, I hate that argument and I am seeing it more and more)

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4 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I hate hate the comparison of confederate monuments to Founding Fathers like Washington and Jefferson.  When you make a monument to Washington it is to celebrate the fact that he helped found the country, defeated the British, didn't make himself King.  Or Jefferson for writing the Declaration of Independence and helping with the Constitution.  While they owned slaves, that isn't what those monuments are about - it's just unfortunate baggage that often comes with history (just like plenty of 20th century Presidents like Wilson and FDR and Nixon were racists).  In contrast, what did Lee or Stuart or Forrest do that we are celebrating?  Open rebellion against the government for the sake of slavery.  That is what they are famous, they have no other significant accomplishments to point to. 

(Sort of a sidebar, but whatever, I hate that argument and I am seeing it more and more)

Yes, Trump made the same argument just last night. And a few hours later, the Lincoln Memorial was vandalized.

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13 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Interesting.  May I share your perspective elsewhere?

Sure.

But remember, I was totally wrong about how the 2016 election would turn out. On the other hand, it is a different kind of debate now; less polling analysis and more old-fashioned political science.

 

 

Speaking of polling by-the-way, both parties had their primaries last night for the Alabama senate special election. On the Democratic side, Doug Jones beat Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (no relation) 65.6%-18% with minor candidates getting the rest. There were 3 polls, one had Kennedy winning 49%-28% and another had him winning 40%-30%. The third had Jones winning, but only 40%-23%. Don't trust polls, especially at the state level.

The Republican polls were also pretty messy, but that was a credible three-way race, which have always been very difficult to poll.

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2 minutes ago, Fez said:

Sure.

But remember, I was totally wrong about how the 2016 election would turn out. On the other hand, it is a different kind of debate now; less polling analysis and more old-fashioned political science.

 

 

Speaking of polling by-the-way, both parties had their primaries last night for the Alabama senate special election. On the Democratic side, Doug Jones beat Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (no relation) 65.6%-18% with minor candidates getting the rest. There were 3 polls, one had Kennedy winning 49%-28% and another had him winning 40%-30%. The third had Jones winning, but only 40%-23%. Don't trust polls, especially at the state level.

The Republican polls were also pretty messy, but that was a credible three-way race, which have always been very difficult to poll.

Thank you.

 

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49 minutes ago, Fez said:

I don't see it unfortunately. Trump has no shame, he is entirely ego and narcissism, he will never leave office voluntarily. And I just don't see Congress impeaching him (or at least, I don't see there being the 2/3rds senate majority to convict; House Democrats may impeach if they win the midterms) based on any words the President says, no matter what the effect the words have.

I generally share your doubts that we can be rid of Trump before January 2021.  It is hard to come up with a scenario where Republicans admit the magnitude of their error and actually impeach him.  But I do hold on to some small hope that if his popularity continues to plummet, and Congress grows more and more antagonistic towards him (both those those things have increased significantly in just 7 months) that he will declare victory in the face of defeat and go home.  I'm not saying it's likely, but it is possible. 

Likewise, he is a stressball and doesn't take care of himself (eating or excercise).  Trump having some sort of health problem in the next 3 years is also a real possibility. 

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1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

I hate hate the comparison of confederate monuments to Founding Fathers like Washington and Jefferson.  When you make a monument to Washington it is to celebrate the fact that he helped found the country, defeated the British, didn't make himself King.  Or Jefferson for writing the Declaration of Independence and helping with the Constitution.  While they owned slaves, that isn't what those monuments are about - it's just unfortunate baggage that often comes with history (just like plenty of 20th century Presidents like Wilson and FDR and Nixon were racists).  In contrast, what did Lee or Stuart or Forrest do that we are celebrating?  Open rebellion against the government for the sake of slavery.  That is what they are famous, they have no other significant accomplishments to point to. 

(Sort of a sidebar, but whatever, I hate that argument and I am seeing it more and more)

While I agree with you that the comparison doesn't really work, it seems fairly obvious that it's only a matter of time before those monuments also draw the attention of the groups that go after these types of symbols.  It's just that they have bigger fish to fry at the moment.

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