purple-eyes

Can we officially call Rhaegar a jerk now?

258 posts in this topic

12 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

There is sure a whole lot of ass-umtion going on in this thread.  No one knows the facts, and an annulment does not get approved without cause. If you read TWoIaF you'll remember Aerys said Rhaegar's chindren "smelled Dornish".  We know that Dornish people are very open sexually, what if the children born to Elia were not Rhaegar's? Perhaps she had a paramour at court...someone she loved before and continued to be with after the political marriage to Rhaegar.

For all the talk about his nobility and honor, to have him abandon his children and wife without cause doesn't make sense...but here are a bunch of folks choosing to condemn him here without any facts.  A wise man once said:  "Shut that shit DOWN".  There is a lot of information still to be revealed, patience folks!

There is absolute no proof to even hint Elia cheated on Rhaegar like Cersei. Yet in order to justify Rhaegar and Lyanna, people like you keep saying: how come Rhaegar is a jerk? he must do this for very good reason! If he annuled his marriage, it should be that Elia did something really bad to him! like sleeping with Arthur Dayne or Lewyn Martell or Oberyn Martell! His two children were not his! 

Either you are JonCon, or you are biased.

Hope you do not serve on jury if this is how you judge people. 

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Just now, purple-eyes said:

Either you are JonCon, or you are biased.

:laugh:

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10 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

His wife was loyal and dutiful to him. She gave him two children although she is always sickly and fragile. But Rhaegar humiliated her for Lyanna in front of the realm. 

And to make it more cruel, shortly after she almost died giving birth to his son, Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna, annuled his marriage with her secretly (turned their two children into bastards) and disappeared for almost one year. He also took his first son's name Aegon and gave it to his new child with Lyanna since Aegon is a name for future king, not a bastard Waters boy.  As if the first little Aegon has never existed. Baby Aegon, first son of Rhaegar, a one year old boy, will be soon forgotten by everyone, because the only Aegon Targaryen who mattered and beloved is Jon Snow. The first Aegon is just a smashed bloody mess whom nobody cared. 

Did Elia and her brothers know her marriage was annuled before she died? 

We do not know.

But she and her children were abandoned by her ex-husband in DS to the mercy of Mad king, then were kept as hostage before they were brutally murdered. 

10000 Dornish army were sent to help Rhaegar still. Elia's uncle Prince Lewyn died fighting for Rhaegar. At the mean time his niece was already divorced by Rhaegar. 

I understand many people are so overjoyed to see Jon Snow is the rightful heir. They do not care what is the back story, only thing matters is that Jon Snow is legit and has a better claim to throne. Sure, he is Aragorn of Westeros, how come he be a bastard? 

But I wish Rhaegar good luck when he met Elia, Oberyn, Rhaenys waters and his nameless bastard baby son in wherever they go after death. 

Rhaegar and Lyanna had a great shinning love, yet somebody else paid for it with their lives. 

 

 

I read your entire post with interest, and I agree it's clear that terribly tragic stuff happened to Elia and her children, but I don't think I can blame Rhaegar for all of that.  I think at some point we have to ask ourselves "What was reasonably foreseeable by Rhaegar when he did what he did," and this is a particularly interesting question for Rhaegar cuz he had the gift of prophecy.

Another thing I think we need to keep in mind is that we are still, even now, only skimming across the surface of that story.  For all we know, Elia MIGHT have been a total jerk to Rhaegar in private for years.  I think we just don't have enough information to say for sure, and may well never have enough information on the highly specific question of judging Rhaegar for what he did. 

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1 hour ago, Lurid Jester said:

You missed the part where he had his marriage to ellia annulled and we'd another woman at the same time. 

You are right.  Also, I now remember that Rhaegar gave Lyanna the crown of love and beauty at Harrenhall, and in front of Elia.  It still could be that Elia gave him the annulment because she knew that she could not give him more children and she knew that he was infatuated with the young wolf girl, who probably could. 

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I really hope that in the show or books we someday get a flushed out explanation of what really went down. There's a lot of ways but really the only way that doesn't have both Rheagar and Lyanna coming off real bad was they had some real good reason to believe they had to do this for the prophecy/to save the world and it had to be a secret. That's a lot of death that went down if it was just for love, when she coulda have just been his mistress or second wife.

 

theres a lot of Rheagar hate happening, but what I really want to know is why (assuming she was not kidnapped and being raped) did she not tell her family/Robert to try and avoid a war, or stop the war. How hard is it to say "guys I love him, and don't want to be with Robert, not being forced, please don't break with the mad king, please stop waging war and trying to kill Rheagar". ??? Maybe the reason for this is known and someone could enlighten me, but I have to assume we're talking over a year (to concieve and give birth) plus the time leading up to eloping and they kept their true feelings/actions/intentions to themselves that whole time ? Like wtf? 

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5 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

There is absolute no proof to even hint Elia cheated on Rhaegar like Cersei. Yet in order to justify Rhaegar and Lyanna, people like you keep saying: how come Rhaegar is a jerk? he must do this for very good reason! If he annuled his marriage, it should be that Elia did something really bad to him! like sleeping with Arthur Dayne or Lewyn Martell or Oberyn Martell! His two children were not his! 

Either you are JonCon, or you are biased.

Hope you do not serve on jury if this is how you judge people. 

You're either a lunatic or you need reading comprehension lessons.  I never said there was any proof of anything, in fact, that was the entire point of my post, we don't know any details.  You are the one making a judgement without the facts, slick.  

The only reason I floated that possibility is to show that other possibilities may exist and that we should hold off judging anyone until we know the facts.  Take some adderall, re-read my post, then punch yourself in the face.

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2 hours ago, ummester said:

Rhaegar is a jerk and Lyanna is a home wrecker.

And what does it matter if Jon is a bastard or not? He made his peace with being Ned's bastard, I'm sure he could adjust to being Rhaegar's. And who cares about the Targ line of succession anymore? On top of all of this, if Ned knew R&L were married, he was a raging hypocrite for protecting the heir to a line he waged war against.

It seems that Ned wasn't against the line, more against Aerys, I think. He was appaulled by Elia and her kids deaths. He called it murder and blamed Lannisters for that till the day he died. If it was Ned, who was first to get to KL and not Tywin, probably, Elia and her children would still be alive or burnt alive by Aerys along with the whole city. He didn't even want to harm Cersei's children, knowing they are abomination.
Jon is his nephew, after all, the only son of his beloved sister. I don't get it - where do you see hypocrisy?

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6 minutes ago, nymeria_2321 said:

I really hope that in the show or books we someday get a flushed out explanation of what really went down. There's a lot of ways but really the only way that doesn't have both Rheagar and Lyanna coming off real bad was they had some real good reason to believe they had to do this for the prophecy/to save the world and it had to be a secret. That's a lot of death that went down if it was just for love, when she coulda have just been his mistress or second wife.

 

theres a lot of Rheagar hate happening, but what I really want to know is why (assuming she was not kidnapped and being raped) did she not tell her family/Robert to try and avoid a war, or stop the war. How hard is it to say "guys I love him, and don't want to be with Robert, not being forced, please don't break with the mad king, please stop waging war and trying to kill Rheagar". ??? Maybe the reason for this is known and someone could enlighten me, but I have to assume we're talking over a year (to concieve and give birth) plus the time leading up to eloping and they kept their true feelings/actions/intentions to themselves that whole time ? Like wtf? 

This is simple to answer: 

If Lyanna sent message to her family (any time in that year), then people will figure out where she is. Then Robert and house Stark would come and try to take Lyanna away from Rhaegar (just like what Ned did later)

Lyanna did not want to be taken away from her silver prince. 

So they chose to be silent. 

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I never really had an opinion on Rhaegar, but what he did was shitty, so fuck him; seems like Targs have no redeeming points, the realm would not be much better under Dany's rule.

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, nymeria_2321 said:

I really hope that in the show or books we someday get a flushed out explanation of what really went down. There's a lot of ways but really the only way that doesn't have both Rheagar and Lyanna coming off real bad was they had some real good reason to believe they had to do this for the prophecy/to save the world and it had to be a secret. That's a lot of death that went down if it was just for love, when she coulda have just been his mistress or second wife.

 

theres a lot of Rheagar hate happening, but what I really want to know is why (assuming she was not kidnapped and being raped) did she not tell her family/Robert to try and avoid a war, or stop the war. How hard is it to say "guys I love him, and don't want to be with Robert, not being forced, please don't break with the mad king, please stop waging war and trying to kill Rheagar". ??? Maybe the reason for this is known and someone could enlighten me, but I have to assume we're talking over a year (to concieve and give birth) plus the time leading up to eloping and they kept their true feelings/actions/intentions to themselves that whole time ? Like wtf? 

Good food for thought there.

I can speculate that maybe events happened too quickly for Lyanna to slam on the brakes like that.

I speculate that maybe when Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar, she had no idea what extreme events would flow from that.  And then, very quickly thereafter, Ned's father and brother went to King's Landing and were burned alive by the Mad King, and the war was ON, with no hope of stopping it just cuz Lyanna might have asked people to stop it.

Remember also that we have STRONG reason to believe that Rhaegar HIMSELF knew the Mad King was mad, and was planning to overthrow him soon anyway.  

So, I'm not sure Rhaegar and Lyanna even wanted the war to stop, given that Rhaegar knew the Mad King was mad and that, presumably, Lyanna knew the Mad King had killed her father and brother (I don't know exactly how much time passed between when Lyanna disappeared and when Ned's father and brother were burned, but my understanding is that they happened very quickly, relatively speaking, and that that event was what REALLY touched off the war, after which, like I said, I doubt Lyanna could have put the brakes on it even if she tried)

Edited by Cron

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Where is everyone getting that they said Jon's given name? I didn't catch that.

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Annulment does not mean the children of the marriage become bastards, at least according to the Catholic Church (obviously not sure 7-worship follows the same rule).

 

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3 minutes ago, Wildling Queen said:

Where is everyone getting that they said Jon's given name? I didn't catch that.

To my knowledge, Jon's true name has NOT been revealed.

Although I believe it is Aejon.

HARR!!!

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44 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Rhaegar gets a massive number of people defending him.

On my end, I'm comfortable with calling a Dragon a Dragon and that Robert did the world a favor by ending him.

Wait, someone should be killed for getting a marriage annulled? Robert took the 7 kingdom down with him, Rahegar would have been a million times better than that whoring drinking, lout

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2 minutes ago, Wildling Queen said:

Where is everyone getting that they said Jon's given name? I didn't catch that.

In the s6 finale Lyanna says to Ned something along the line of "protect him, his name is..." And since Lyanna had no reason to name her son Jon (people speculate that this name was given by  Ned to replace his real one, and he named Jon afte his friend Jon Arryn) he has a Targ name, it may be Aegon,Aemon,Jaehaerys... Etc

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29 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

There is absolute no proof to even hint Elia cheated on Rhaegar like Cersei. Yet in order to justify Rhaegar and Lyanna, people like you keep saying: how come Rhaegar is a jerk? he must do this for very good reason! If he annuled his marriage, it should be that Elia did something really bad to him! like sleeping with Arthur Dayne or Lewyn Martell or Oberyn Martell! His two children were not his! 

Either you are JonCon, or you are biased.

Hope you do not serve on jury if this is how you judge people. 

And there is absolutely no proof of anything else except the annulment and Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna at this point. It is hilarious that you are judging Rhaeghar but then don't like it when people pitch alternate theories about Elia. At this point, we don't know either ways

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3 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

You're either a lunatic or you need reading comprehension lessons.  I never said there was any proof of anything, in fact, that was the entire point of my post, we don't know any details.  You are the one making a judgement without the facts, slick.  

The only reason I floated that possibility is to show that other possibilities may exist and that we should hold off judging anyone until we know the facts.  Take some adderall, re-read my post, then punch yourself in the face.

Your post is not that long and yes I did read it. 

Unfortunately so far there are facts to support Rhaegar is a jerk (divorce his wife shortly after she almost died giving him a son, left them at the mercy of mad king in stead of sending his ex-wife to her home, made his two elder children bastards) but there is no fact to support Elia is a jerk. 

Possibilities? Sure, tons of them we have. 

It is possible that Lyanna and Rhaegar tried to murder Elia and her children, they failed so they ran away. 

It is possible that Rhaegar used a sword to force high septon to annul his marriage. High septon did it to keep his head on his shoulder. 

It is possible that Rhaegar hold Elia and children on DS as hostage so that he can still have Dorne to help him although he already annuled his marriage with her. (thus also give chance to aerys to keep them as hostage)

Yet among so many equally ground-less possibilities you only raised the possibility that Elia cheated on her husband thus deserved to be abandoned. 

Why? 

Because you are biased. 

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Posted (edited)

Nm

Edited by Lurid Jester
Derp.

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3 minutes ago, Banjo said:

And there is absolutely no proof of anything else except the annulment and Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna at this point. It is hilarious that you are judging Rhaeghar but then don't like it when people pitch alternate theories about Elia. At this point, we don't know either ways

Well, we know Rhaegar named Lyanna as his queen of love and beauty in front of his lawful wife and whole realm (all smile died). 

We know Elia almost died giving birth to his son but weeks after Aegon was born, Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna and annuled his marriage secretly.

We know Annulment means this marriage was never ever valid therefore Aegon and Rhaenys became bastards. 

All of these are facts. 

Do these facts sound like jerkish move? 

 

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13 minutes ago, VenezuelanLord said:

In the s6 finale Lyanna says to Ned something along the line of "protect him, his name is..." And since Lyanna had no reason to name her son Jon (people speculate that this name was given by  Ned to replace his real one, and he named Jon afte his friend Jon Arryn) he has a Targ name, it may be Aegon,Aemon,Jaehaerys... Etc

Aejon.

It is known.

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