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Magic and Dragons


Dukhasinov

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I seem to be on a different wavelength than most of the fandom regarding the relationship between magic and dragons. People seem to take passages like "Magic went out of the world the day the last dragon died" and take it at face value, and assume that dragons are the root of all magic in the world. I guess this is kind of fair, because characters in the book seem to make the same assumption. The Undying, noticing that their magic is suddenly stronger after hearing news of three dragons hatching into the world for the first time in a century, want to secure the baby dragons to somehow amplify their magic. I submit that the Undying, like most of the fanbase, have confused correlation with causation. The birth of the dragons did not cause magic re re-awaken. The re-awakening of magic allowed the dragon eggs to hatch, and also, I think, allowed the White Walkers to re-emerge.

   Magic is generally assumed to have started to fade with the Doom of Valyria, which killed off most of the world`s dragons. But it seems to me that whether or not the Doom caused the fading of magic, or vice-versa, or whether they were totally unrelated, the death of so many dragons in the Doom had nothing to do with the fading of magic. Rather, it seems to me that the suddenly much smaller population of dragons had difficulty surviving in a suddenly magic-free world. It seems pretty clear that the Valyrian dragonriders used magic to control their mounts, so dragons as a species are somehow connected to, and somehow dependent upon magic, without really being supernatural creatures in-and-of themselves.

  I could be wrong, but I think Balerion, Vhagar, and Maraxes were hatched on Dragonstone shortly after the Doom. Aegon`s descendants would hatch and ride their own dragons from the eggs laid by these three. It is generally assumed that Vhagar and Maraxes were female, and that Balerion was male. It was customary for Targaryen princelings to be given a dragon egg in their cradle, so that dragon and rider could bond and grow up together. However, as time went on, fewer and fewer of the eggs ever hatched, and many that did were sickly or deformed. Many Targaryen princes were left to adopt dragons who had outlived their original riders. Maegor inherited Balerion from his father. It can reasonably be assumed that  Maegor had a cradle egg, and it failed to hatch. Viserys and his son Aemond both had dud cradle eggs, which allowed them to inherit Balerion and Vhagar, respectively. 

   It is also noted that subsequent generations of dragons did not grow as large as their ancestors. This is often blamed on the confined environment of the Dragonpit, but many of the royal dragons were raised in the open air of Dragonstone. It seems that dragons found it difficult to reproduce and thrive in a suddenly magic-free world, like fish after a sudden drop in the water`s oxygen level. After the Dance, there were still  four living dragons, and many eggs. The last living dragon died a pitiful and stunted thing, and twenty years after the Dance, no more eggs hatched.

   So, dragons clung to existance for three or four generation after the Doom. Only the extraordinary longevity of the creatures prevented their extinction for as long as it did.

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8 hours ago, Dukhasinov said:

 

  I could be wrong, but I think Balerion, Vhagar, and Maraxes were hatched on Dragonstone shortly after the Doom. Aegon`s descendants would hatch and ride their own dragons from the eggs laid by these three. It is generally assumed that Vhagar and Maraxes were female, and that Balerion was male. It was customary for Targaryen princelings to be given a dragon egg in their cradle, so that dragon and rider could bond and grow up together. However, as time went on, fewer and fewer of the eggs ever hatched, and many that did were sickly or deformed. Many Targaryen princes were left to adopt dragons who had outlived their original riders. Maegor inherited Balerion from his father. It can reasonably be assumed that  Maegor had a cradle egg, and it failed to hatch. Viserys and his son Aemond both had dud cradle eggs, which allowed them to inherit Balerion and Vhagar, respectively. 

 

A few minor notes.

Balerion was one of the 5 dragons that came with Aenar to to dragonstone 112 years before Aegon. 

Maegor had the choice to either take a hatchling that where available at the time ore wait for his fathers dead so he could claim the biggest and most powerful dragon, he did the last.

The custom to put a dragonegg in the cradle stems from after the dance of dragons do some of the princelings did recieve a dragoneg at a young age before that, for instance all of Rhaenyra her sons. But Aemond is actually mentioned as not having been given an egg and his father talked of taking him to dragonstone to choose a hatchling for himself (he had other ideas and took Vhagar for himself instead.)

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On 8/14/2017 at 9:18 AM, direpupy said:

 

The custom to put a dragonegg in the cradle stems from after the dance of dragons do some of the princelings did recieve a dragoneg at a young age before that, for instance all of Rhaenyra her sons. But Aemond is actually mentioned as not having been given an egg and his father talked of taking him to dragonstone to choose a hatchling for himself (he had other ideas and took Vhagar for himself instead.)

   It is not specifically stated that Sunfyre hatched from Aegon the Elder`s cradle, but we do at least know that Aegon was his first rider, so it`s safe to assume that he was at least of comparable age. The same is true of Prince Daeron`s dragon, Tessarion. Their sister Helaena is said to have taken a hand-me-down dragon in Dreamfyre. If King Viserys gifted dragon eggs to his grandsons of doubtful parentage, he could hardly have done less for his own trueborn childred by his second wife. Since Sunfyre was notably larger than Tessarion, and Aegon was seven years older than his brother Daeron, it stands to reason that the princes and their dragons are of comparable age. It can thus be safely assumed that Aemond and Helaena had their own eggs in the cradle as well. Obviously, these eggs failed to hatch, since they both adopted hand-me-down dragons. That is a 50% failure rate for dragon hatchings.

   It may have seemed to the Targaryens that they had an abundance of dragons, since they often had more dragons than riders, but the fact seem to remain that, as time went on, it became harder and harder to hatch dragon eggs.

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Actually, I expect most dragons would outlive their original riders, and then get inherited by someone else.

 

As far as the magic getting stronger with the presence of dragons, or stronger magic enabling dragons ... I'd say it's a little bit of both.

Magic dipped below the critical threshold to maintain dragons, it recently started rising again (probably coinciding with the stirring/waking of the White Walkers out of whatever inactivity they've been doing for the past 8k or so years, most likely around the time of Robert's Rebellion), and recently (presumably) passed the minimum threshold for dragon-hatching, allowing Dany to hatch her three eggs. However, the existence of dragons amplified and increase the rise of magic - that is, the presence of the dragons started a feedback loop - their presence was allowed by a rise in magic, but their presence also caused an additional increase in magic, possibly one that increases as they grow in size, age, and power.

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2 hours ago, Dukhasinov said:

   It is not specifically stated that Sunfyre hatched from Aegon the Elder`s cradle, but we do at least know that Aegon was his first rider, so it`s safe to assume that he was at least of comparable age. The same is true of Prince Daeron`s dragon, Tessarion. Their sister Helaena is said to have taken a hand-me-down dragon in Dreamfyre. If King Viserys gifted dragon eggs to his grandsons of doubtful parentage, he could hardly have done less for his own trueborn childred by his second wife. Since Sunfyre was notably larger than Tessarion, and Aegon was seven years older than his brother Daeron, it stands to reason that the princes and their dragons are of comparable age. It can thus be safely assumed that Aemond and Helaena had their own eggs in the cradle as well. Obviously, these eggs failed to hatch, since they both adopted hand-me-down dragons. That is a 50% failure rate for dragon hatchings.

   It may have seemed to the Targaryens that they had an abundance of dragons, since they often had more dragons than riders, but the fact seem to remain that, as time went on, it became harder and harder to hatch dragon eggs.

Actually the dragons in his grandsons crib where put there by rhaenyra not viserys so your assuptions derail right there. so no it can not be safely assumed that aemond an helaena had eggs in there cribs.

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The Alchemists tell Tyrion that the wyldfire has become active or some change is noticed.   The Alchemist accredits this to dragons but I don't believe we are told he even knows about Dany's little darlings.   These actions also seem to coincide with the comet which Osha associates with dragons.   I find this very curious given the fact that Osha's husband became a wight and she's aware of the Others.   She has seen magic 1st hand, but still credits dragons, that she can't possibly know exist.   Based on that alone I think we can determine that dragons don't cause magic.   I think in terms of popular fear dragons are the end all beat all.   Given Osha's comment, perhaps the Wildlings don't consider the Others magic?   

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On 8/27/2017 at 7:03 AM, direpupy said:

Actually the dragons in his grandsons crib where put there by rhaenyra not viserys so your assuptions derail right there. so no it can not be safely assumed that aemond an helaena had eggs in there cribs.

No. The Rogue Prince states that the three Strong bastards were given eggs by the order of King Viserys. Rhaenyra putting them there makes more sense, but the text says that it was done on the King`s order. It is also stated elsewhere that Aenys was given a dragon hatchling (Quicksilver) as a baby or toddler. There is no reason that Maegor should not have been given his own hatchling, if there had been one to give, and yet we know that he inherited Balerion after Aegon died. Perhaps he was given a hatchling as a small child, and it did not survive. He would not have had the sense to refuse a hatchling to hold out for Balerion as a toddler. We know that dragons lay clutches of eggs, though we aren`t told how many are in a clutch. So a decade and more after Aegon`s coronation, even if only one clutch is laid, Quicksilver is the only new dragon to hatch? Judging by the artwork in Worlds of Ice and Fire, Vhagar at the time of the conquest was about the size of season 5 Drogon in the show. And given that a dragon egg is at most the size of a football, it doesn`t seem unreasonable that an egg clutch could consist of several dozen eggs. But there wasn`t a healthy hatchling for little Maegor?

 

   You might be right about the egg-in-the-cradle tradition, but that`s not really the point. Whether the Targaryen princelings were given eggs in the cradle or received young dragons as children, either way, the preference seemed to be for dragon and rider to bond from a young age. Nevertheless, there often seemed to not be enough young dragons to go around to all of the prospective dragonriders. Many Targaryens had to claim older dragons whose riders had died, even though this was evidently dangerous. (See the account of Aemond`s claiming of Vhagar.) That might explain why Vermithor was left alone for decades after Jahaerys died.

   It also seems to imply that there were hatchlings on Dragonstone for Aemond to choose from, (Charmander, obviously) but what happened to these hatchlings? This was about a decade before the Dance, so any of these hatchlings would have been of fighting size by the time of the Dance. We are also told that there were a lot of eggs left over after the Dance, but few were successfully hatched, and all of the dragons were sickly and short-lived. Most of the surviving eggs were probably destroyed at Summerhall. 

   My point is, the overall pattern seems to be that the majority of the dragon eggs that were laid after the Conquest did not hatch, and a large percentage of the dragons that did hatch did not survive to adulthood.

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4 hours ago, Dukhasinov said:

No. The Rogue Prince states that the three Strong bastards were given eggs by the order of King Viserys. Rhaenyra putting them there makes more sense, but the text says that it was done on the King`s order. It is also stated elsewhere that Aenys was given a dragon hatchling (Quicksilver) as a baby or toddler. There is no reason that Maegor should not have been given his own hatchling, if there had been one to give, and yet we know that he inherited Balerion after Aegon died. Perhaps he was given a hatchling as a small child, and it did not survive. He would not have had the sense to refuse a hatchling to hold out for Balerion as a toddler. We know that dragons lay clutches of eggs, though we aren`t told how many are in a clutch. So a decade and more after Aegon`s coronation, even if only one clutch is laid, Quicksilver is the only new dragon to hatch? Judging by the artwork in Worlds of Ice and Fire, Vhagar at the time of the conquest was about the size of season 5 Drogon in the show. And given that a dragon egg is at most the size of a football, it doesn`t seem unreasonable that an egg clutch could consist of several dozen eggs. But there wasn`t a healthy hatchling for little Maegor?

 

   You might be right about the egg-in-the-cradle tradition, but that`s not really the point. Whether the Targaryen princelings were given eggs in the cradle or received young dragons as children, either way, the preference seemed to be for dragon and rider to bond from a young age. Nevertheless, there often seemed to not be enough young dragons to go around to all of the prospective dragonriders. Many Targaryens had to claim older dragons whose riders had died, even though this was evidently dangerous. (See the account of Aemond`s claiming of Vhagar.) That might explain why Vermithor was left alone for decades after Jahaerys died.

   It also seems to imply that there were hatchlings on Dragonstone for Aemond to choose from, (Charmander, obviously) but what happened to these hatchlings? This was about a decade before the Dance, so any of these hatchlings would have been of fighting size by the time of the Dance. We are also told that there were a lot of eggs left over after the Dance, but few were successfully hatched, and all of the dragons were sickly and short-lived. Most of the surviving eggs were probably destroyed at Summerhall. 

   My point is, the overall pattern seems to be that the majority of the dragon eggs that were laid after the Conquest did not hatch, and a large percentage of the dragons that did hatch did not survive to adulthood.

It says royal decree but a royal decree is not necessarily given by the king, it can be given in his name by for instance the Crown princes, and yes he may then overrule her but the original decree those not have to be his. 

As to Maegor we are explicitly told that there where hatchlings but that he choose to bond with none because he desired Balerion the biggest and most dangerous dragon.

And as to hatchlings disappearing GRRM explains this away trough the Cannibal, the Dragon that feasts on other Dragons, specifically hatchlings.

That parents wanted there children to avoid dangerous older Dragons and thus preferred to have them bond with a hatchling is not strange, however in both Maegor and Aemond we see that the children themselves do not always agree and there is no reason to assume that those that have an older Dragon did not get it in a similar fashion to Maegor and Aemond. Older Dragons where actually more prestigious we see this in Maegor 's desire for Balerion and that one of the things said to be in Viserys favor when chosen as successor was that he was Balerions last rider. Aemond also saw losing his eye in exhange for Vhagar as a small price because Vhagar was such a prestigious dragon to have.

And last but not least we do not know if before the Doom the majority of the laid egg's did hatch, for all we know egg's not hatching is quite normal with Dragons.

For these reason i really do not agree with you.

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On 8/29/2017 at 4:27 AM, direpupy said:

 

That parents wanted there children to avoid dangerous older Dragons and thus preferred to have them bond with a hatchling is not strange, however in both Maegor and Aemond we see that the children themselves do not always agree and there is no reason to assume that those that have an older Dragon did not get it in a similar fashion to Maegor and Aemond. Older Dragons where actually more prestigious we see this in Maegor 's desire for Balerion and that one of the things said to be in Viserys favor when chosen as successor was that he was Balerions last rider. Aemond also saw losing his eye in exhange for Vhagar as a small price because Vhagar was such a prestigious dragon to have.

And last but not least we do not know if before the Doom the majority of the laid egg's did hatch, for all we know egg's not hatching is quite normal with Dragons.

For these reason i really do not agree with you.

Aemond`s brothers  had had their dragons for years when he claimed Vhagar. They received their dragons when they were far too young to choose not to accept one. Viserys` suggestion to go to Dragonstone to find Aemond a hatchling came when the family was on Driftmark for Laena Velaryon`s funeral, and Aemond made the choice that he did because Vhagar was right under his nose and newly available. If Aemond`s 6 year old brother already had his own dragon, the only reasonable explanation for Aemond`s dragonlessness(Yeah, it`s a word) is that his dragon either failed to hatch or died young. It seems likely that all 4 siblings had their own dragons when Aemond`s died. Why would little Daeron be given a dragon while his elder brother had none? If holding out for an older dragon had been Aemond`s long term plan, he could have gone to Dragonstone and claimed Vermithor.

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14 hours ago, Dukhasinov said:

Aemond`s brothers  had had their dragons for years when he claimed Vhagar. They received their dragons when they were far too young to choose not to accept one. Viserys` suggestion to go to Dragonstone to find Aemond a hatchling came when the family was on Driftmark for Laena Velaryon`s funeral, and Aemond made the choice that he did because Vhagar was right under his nose and newly available. If Aemond`s 6 year old brother already had his own dragon, the only reasonable explanation for Aemond`s dragonlessness(Yeah, it`s a word) is that his dragon either failed to hatch or died young. It seems likely that all 4 siblings had their own dragons when Aemond`s died. Why would little Daeron be given a dragon while his elder brother had none? If holding out for an older dragon had been Aemond`s long term plan, he could have gone to Dragonstone and claimed Vermithor.

In every other case where someone's dragon did not hatch or it died young we are explicitly told that the did not hatch or die young but not with Aemond, thats a pretty big clue right there.

I also coulf not help but notice that you failed to comment on the fact that i pointed out we do not know if before the doom the mayority of the laid egg's hatcht wich is a preety big question wen it comes to your theory

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13 hours ago, direpupy said:

In every other case where someone's dragon did not hatch or it died young we are explicitly told that the did not hatch or die young but not with Aemond, thats a pretty big clue right there.

I also coulf not help but notice that you failed to comment on the fact that i pointed out we do not know if before the doom the mayority of the laid egg's hatcht wich is a preety big question wen it comes to your theory

There are a lot of minor but juicy details that we aren`t told. What happened to Silverwing, Sheepstealer, and the Cannibal after the Dance? How many dragons hatched after the Dance? How did Morning die?

As for Aemond, his previously having a dragon is the only thing that really makes sense. His 6 year old brother had a dragon. Aemond would have been offered one at a similar age. I doubt a 5 or 6 year old would have the savy or patience to refuse a hatchling and wait around 5 or 6 years for one of his relatives to die so that he could claim an adult dragon, even if it`s a 5 or 6 year old Aemond One-Eye. It stands to reason that his parents would not let him try for a grouchy old monster like Vermithor, but it also stands to reason that he would have been allowed to claim Dreamfyre before his sister Helaena. So, it makes sense that Aemond already had his own young dragon when his sister claimed Dreamfyre.

 

   No, we don`t know what the fertility of dragons was like before the Doom. But it HAD to have been better that it was in Westeros to maintain a force of Dragonriders. Maybe the Valyrians had methods of encouraging eggs to hatch that were lost to the later Targaryens. But these methods would almost certainly have been magical, which is consistent with my theory. We also know that there were wild dragons on Westeros in ancient times, who obviously reproduced without human help.

 

 

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On 8/29/2017 at 4:27 AM, direpupy said:

It says royal decree but a royal decree is not necessarily given by the king, it can be given in his name by for instance the Crown princes, and yes he may then overrule her but the original decree those not have to be his. 

As to Maegor we are explicitly told that there where hatchlings but that he choose to bond with none because he desired Balerion the biggest and most dangerous dragon.

And as to hatchlings disappearing GRRM explains this away trough the Cannibal, the Dragon that feasts on other Dragons, specifically hatchlings.

That parents wanted there children to avoid dangerous older Dragons and thus preferred to have them bond with a hatchling is not strange, however in both Maegor and Aemond we see that the children themselves do not always agree and there is no reason to assume that those that have an older Dragon did not get it in a similar fashion to Maegor and Aemond. Older Dragons where actually more prestigious we see this in Maegor 's desire for Balerion and that one of the things said to be in Viserys favor when chosen as successor was that he was Balerions last rider. Aemond also saw losing his eye in exhange for Vhagar as a small price because Vhagar was such a prestigious dragon to have.

And last but not least we do not know if before the Doom the majority of the laid egg's did hatch, for all we know egg's not hatching is quite normal with Dragons.

For these reason i really do not agree with you.

"The Rogue Prince" states that the Strong bastards were given dragon eggs in the cradle "By Royal decree," which might-at a stretch-include a decree by their mother Rhaenyra in her capacity as Princess of Dragonstone. But WOIAF states that "Viserys decreed etc, etc...." So, that part is cleared up. King Viserys decreed that his grandsons be given dragon eggs in their cradles. He could hardly have done less for his children by Alicent Hightower. Aegon, Helaena, Aemond, and Daeron must have all been given their own cradle-eggs, or hatchlings at very young ages. That is the only narrative that makes sense.  Aegon`s and Daeron`s dragons grew to maturity. Helaena`s and Aemond`s did not. That is the only logical reason for Aemond to be dragonless while his younger brother and sister had a dragon. It seems probable that Aemond`s egg/hatchling outlived Helaena`s, or else Aemond would have claimed the older, stronger Dreamfyre before his sister. Dreamfyre was most likely older than Vermithor, so must have been large and formidable. It is clear from the text of The Rogue Prince that, following the funeral of Laena Velaryon on Driftmark, Aemond`s grandfather suggested going to Dragonstone and getting him an egg or hatchling. Aemond rejected this idea only because Vhagar was right there under his nose at Driftmark and newly available. It is likely that he never actually voiced this, and his parents` first inkling that he had a better idea than to claim a hatchling was likely when he was presented to them with his ruined eye.

   Now, of Viserys` 4 children, only 2 raised hatchlings that survived to fighting age. Of Rhaenyra`s 5 sons, all but Viserys had cradle eggs that hatched, and all of those dragons save Aegon`s Stormcloud made it to fighting age. It is also fair to not the twin daughters of Prince Daemon. Baela hatched the dragon Moondancer, while Rhaena`s hatchling died shortly after birth. It took Rhaena another try with no less than three eggs to hatch a dragon, and "Morning would not live long." whether this was due to weakness at birth or some kind of foul play seems to be left deliberately unclear. So, of the 4 eggs on King`s Landing, only 2 grew to maturity (Aegon`s Sunfyre and Daeron`s Tessarion). Of the 7 eggs on Dragonstone, 5 grew to maturity Jace`s Vermax, Luke`s Arrax, Joffrey`s Tyraxes, Aegon`s Stormcloud, and Baela`s Moondancer.) Of the 3 eggs in the Vale, (Remember, Rhaena had 3) none reached maturity.

   The highest success rate of hatchings, on Dragonstone, still has a 20% or so failure rate. The King`s Landing brood`s failure rate was twice that. The Vale`s failure rate was either 100% or 75%, depending on whether Morning died naturally or by violence. Rhaenyra said it herself, that "Dragons thrive best on Dragonstone." Perhaps whatever magic allowed Valyria`s dragons to thrive was less faded on Dragonstone. Or maybe to volcanism of the Dragonmont produced some kind of natural ju-ju that was reminiscent of the 14 Flames of Valyria. Or maybe it`s not anything magical at all. Maybe the dragons were hothouse flowers that required the constant high temperatures of volcanic hot springs and steam vents to reliably incubate their eggs, and Dragonstone was the closest thing to Valyria`s 14 Flames that could be found on Westeros.

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On 8/13/2017 at 9:43 PM, Dukhasinov said:

The birth of the dragons did not cause magic re re-awaken. The re-awakening of magic allowed the dragon eggs to hatch, and also, I think, allowed the White Walkers to re-emerge.

I agree with this.

As I've said before, I believe Harrenhal was designed to amplify the anti-magic effects of the Hoare bloodline and broadcast it worldwide, suppressing magic for as long as someone of the Black Blood held that seat. House Hoare didn't hold it for long enough to create a noticeable change, but houses Lothston and Whent sure did, and dragons stopped hatching right about the same time that house Lothston took Harrenhal and they started hatching again right about the same time the last Whent was driven from it.

I also think the Seastone Chair was the basis for the design, but that's more of a hunch.

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13 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

I agree with this.

As I've said before, I believe Harrenhal was designed to amplify the anti-magic effects of the Hoare bloodline and broadcast it worldwide, suppressing magic for as long as someone of the Black Blood held that seat. House Hoare didn't hold it for long enough to create a noticeable change, but houses Lothston and Whent sure did, and dragons stopped hatching right about the same time that house Lothston took Harrenhal and they started hatching again right about the same time the last Whent was driven from it.

I also think the Seastone Chair was the basis for the design, but that's more of a hunch.

What? I`m not following any of that. What anti-magic effects of the Hoare bloodline? I`ve never heard any suggestion that Harrenhal has anything to do with magic. In fact, I think it`s the only one of the great castles of the 7 kingdoms whose origins are not lost in the pre-history of the Age of Heroes. Large as Harrenhal is, it`s a pretty mundane castle. Construction on Harrenhal started about 40 years before the Conquest, long after the Doom and the fading of magic. I also don`t see how the Lothstons and Whents have to do with anything.

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On 8/13/2017 at 9:43 PM, Dukhasinov said:

I seem to be on a different wavelength than most of the fandom regarding the relationship between magic and dragons. People seem to take passages like "Magic went out of the world the day the last dragon died" and take it at face value, and assume that dragons are the root of all magic in the world. I guess this is kind of fair, because characters in the book seem to make the same assumption. The Undying, noticing that their magic is suddenly stronger after hearing news of three dragons hatching into the world for the first time in a century, want to secure the baby dragons to somehow amplify their magic. I submit that the Undying, like most of the fanbase, have confused correlation with causation. The birth of the dragons did not cause magic re re-awaken. The re-awakening of magic allowed the dragon eggs to hatch, and also, I think, allowed the White Walkers to re-emerge.

   Magic is generally assumed to have started to fade with the Doom of Valyria, which killed off most of the world`s dragons. But it seems to me that whether or not the Doom caused the fading of magic, or vice-versa, or whether they were totally unrelated, the death of so many dragons in the Doom had nothing to do with the fading of magic. Rather, it seems to me that the suddenly much smaller population of dragons had difficulty surviving in a suddenly magic-free world. It seems pretty clear that the Valyrian dragonriders used magic to control their mounts, so dragons as a species are somehow connected to, and somehow dependent upon magic, without really being supernatural creatures in-and-of themselves.

  I could be wrong, but I think Balerion, Vhagar, and Maraxes were hatched on Dragonstone shortly after the Doom. Aegon`s descendants would hatch and ride their own dragons from the eggs laid by these three. It is generally assumed that Vhagar and Maraxes were female, and that Balerion was male. It was customary for Targaryen princelings to be given a dragon egg in their cradle, so that dragon and rider could bond and grow up together. However, as time went on, fewer and fewer of the eggs ever hatched, and many that did were sickly or deformed. Many Targaryen princes were left to adopt dragons who had outlived their original riders. Maegor inherited Balerion from his father. It can reasonably be assumed that  Maegor had a cradle egg, and it failed to hatch. Viserys and his son Aemond both had dud cradle eggs, which allowed them to inherit Balerion and Vhagar, respectively. 

   It is also noted that subsequent generations of dragons did not grow as large as their ancestors. This is often blamed on the confined environment of the Dragonpit, but many of the royal dragons were raised in the open air of Dragonstone. It seems that dragons found it difficult to reproduce and thrive in a suddenly magic-free world, like fish after a sudden drop in the water`s oxygen level. After the Dance, there were still  four living dragons, and many eggs. The last living dragon died a pitiful and stunted thing, and twenty years after the Dance, no more eggs hatched.

   So, dragons clung to existance for three or four generation after the Doom. Only the extraordinary longevity of the creatures prevented their extinction for as long as it did.

This is an interesting idea to me as i wrestle with Fire and Ice and who's side is what to begin with. At first it seems evident that Ice is the power of the children of the Forest as they used this magic to raise the wall some how. The hammer of the Arm of Dorne and the Neck may also be a display of Water/Ice magic. Interestingly too, the Rhoynar used water magic to fight the Valyrians and are also tied to the Grey Plague which seems tied to the Others or Wight's. 

Yet, we have Beric Dondarrion, who like Bloodraven, sits in a weirwood throne and has one eye. Is this just a parallel, or a direct link? Does Fire Magic originate from the Cotf too? If so, then there are deeper implications. One cannot live with out the other then. 

In the Grey Kings legend, he brought Fire to man when he tempted the Storm God who sent a bolt of lightening that hit a tree. Was it a weirwood tree? The Sea Dragon Nagga may be a metaphor for the Weirwoods as Nagga's hall may be the overturned weirwood boat he built to sail to the Iron Islands. So Nagga's living fire which lit the hall? The Fire brought by the gods through the weirwood tree? The lightening, was it the falling comet? Did dragon's come with it then? Born out of the weirwood trees and possibly this fallen black rock? 

And, which came first? The Others? or the Dragons? TWOIAF seems to hint that dragons came first. Yet, the COTF still seem to predate them. So is water and ice first, or fire? 

I like the idea that all the magic split from the same source along time ago, and that both sides need to come together through Dany and Jon and possibly their child, to die. So that the world may be rid of magic, for the good of the realm, and that the world may go back to normal, such as the seasons. Im constantly looking for theories and ideas though on the magic of Westeros and the Dragons connection to the Others.

 

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On ‎9‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 5:11 PM, Dukhasinov said:

What? I`m not following any of that. What anti-magic effects of the Hoare bloodline? I`ve never heard any suggestion that Harrenhal has anything to do with magic. In fact, I think it`s the only one of the great castles of the 7 kingdoms whose origins are not lost in the pre-history of the Age of Heroes. Large as Harrenhal is, it`s a pretty mundane castle. Construction on Harrenhal started about 40 years before the Conquest, long after the Doom and the fading of magic. I also don`t see how the Lothstons and Whents have to do with anything.

Harrenhal was built with blood in the mortar. I'm not a stonemason, so maybe I'm wrong here, but I'm reasonably sure there's not a mundane reason for doing something like that.

Second, we don't have a good reason to start the waning of magic on the Doom. The fact that the Targaryen dragons had no trouble breeding for 250 years afterward seems to imply there's not a causal connection unless we disassociate dragon breeding from magic entirely.

Of course all this makes sense only if you believe that the Lothstons and Whents have Hoare blood. Speculation on that front can be found in the "House Hoare is Alive" thread linked in my signature.

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15 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Harrenhal was built with blood in the mortar. I'm not a stonemason, so maybe I'm wrong here, but I'm reasonably sure there's not a mundane reason for doing something like that.

Second, we don't have a good reason to start the waning of magic on the Doom. The fact that the Targaryen dragons had no trouble breeding for 250 years afterward seems to imply there's not a causal connection unless we disassociate dragon breeding from magic entirely.

Of course all this makes sense only if you believe that the Lothstons and Whents have Hoare blood. Speculation on that front can be found in the "House Hoare is Alive" thread linked in my signature.

I think the "Blood in the mortar" thing was a metaphor for how many impressed laborers died during its construction. And yes, we do have good reason to start the waning of magic roughly at the Doom. It`s a good enough benchmark for the Maesters of the Citadel. That`s not to say that the two are necessarily connected. But we sure as hell don`t have a reason to start it at the construction of Harrenhal. It`s not like there was a thriving tradition of magic in Westeros shortly before Aegon`s conquest.

   I can`t think of any reason at all to draw any link between the Hoares, Lothstons, and Whents. The Lothstons weren`t even the first House to hold Harrenhal after the conquest. Why isn`t House Qoherys part of your crackpot theory? And why would it be important if there were? There is nothing special about House Hoare. If any of the Black Line were still alive, they would have no reason to hide it. Aegon did not purposely seek to stamp out the Hoares any more than he did the Gardners or Durandons. If any sons of Harren had survived, he probably would have allowed them to bend the knee and confirmed them as Lords of the Iron Islands, and the Greyjoys would be little known outside the Iron Islands. Your theory does not hold water.

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