Finally, the Dothraki confirmed as best army

[Edward Riley]

1. They can't do sieges to save their life. They'd run out of patience inside of a week

2. As soon as the realm learns about "Pikemen", then the Dothraki are doomed. The Unsullied with spears already made them look bad once. Imagine if they had long, steel pikes.

3. Afraid of the ocean with a serious panic mode. Would make lousy marines. All the enemy has to do is occupy water on the other side and dare the dothraki to cross.

4. The straight ahead "CHARGGGEEEE" isn't exactly the best move to know. Ask Pyrrhus in history about straight ahead assaults.

 

 

[xjlxking]

34 minutes ago, Alfonso Sánchez said:

What about the swiss guard and the pike infantries in the late medieval period? Indeed it is known that the manipular formation of the romans defeated the phalanx, but many people over historia forums argue that bad generalship damaged the romans chances.

Nevertheless, very interesting points.

They weren't really the same. They were effective but that was a different type of formation. They would plant the Halberd, pikes into the ground. And yes, they were effective against heavy cavalry but failed versus very light cavalry.

The thing to point out regarding Phalanx is that for it to be effective, the commander has to be above average. We have seen 2-3 commanders use them effectively in their army, while others used the poorly because it was not easy. Pontus, Carthage, Greek City States, Potelmaic, Seleucid..etc all used it but eventually they realized it isn't easy to make it effective. They eventually changed to the Legionary city because it's easier, more flexible, and yielded better results overall. 

 

[Alfonso Sánchez]

2 minutes ago, xjlxking said:

They weren't really the same. They were effective but that was a different type of formation. They would plant the Halberd, pikes into the ground. And yes, they were effective against heavy cavalry but failed versus very light cavalry.

The thing to point out regarding Phalanx is that for it to be effective, the commander has to be above average. We have seen 2-3 commanders use them effectively in their army, while others used the poorly because it was not easy. Pontus, Carthage, Greek City States, Potelmaic, Seleucid..etc all used it but eventually they realized it isn't easy to make it effective. They eventually changed to the Legionary city because it's easier, more flexible, and yielded better results overall. 

 

I see, thanks a lot for the input!!

[xjlxking]

43 minutes ago, Alfonso Sánchez said:

Mostly correct, our issue with the cavalry is that they are not using the strategies and tactics that made the mongols powerful, and they are not charging like a proper shock unit like the hussars, hetaroi or else.

If i am correct, the men of arms used as infantry were also very well trained, the use of zweihanders, halberds, partisans and lances required several degrees of training, and tower shields required marching drills and so.

We are complaining about a light infantey, without armor, clashing directly against a heavy armored infantry, something that would end badly for the cavalry, we know that armor is not the cure for bad tactics.

I agree that the portrayal was not the best. I don't think it will because that type of battle would be extremely boring. 

Besides, she had a dragon wrecking havoc in their front lines that we literally saw some riders go past the line

[goomba]

13 hours ago, Hrulj said:

The dothraki didn't fare that well without Dragons. They are raiders and are great at picking off fleeing enemies and pouring trough punctured lines. Claiming they are the best fighters without a Dragon is idiotic and another D&D mess

i have to disagree, each Dothraki looked like they cut down at least 3 Lannister men before getting killed themselves. Not bad, that means 1 Dothraki is worth atleast 3 Lannister men.

[goomba]

12 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

I agree with you the Dothraki are not the best soldiers as Jamie pretty much said. I think he should have said they are Barbaric, moral less and the shear size of the Army would run over all the Armies Cersei/Jamie could muster together.

Soldiers are killers, that is their job. Dothraki, are born and bred killers from birth, thus making them better soldiers than trained Lannister men overall. 

[snow is the man]

Uh I think jaime was just talking about how savage they are. That mixed with dragons makes them unstoppable. Aegon used three dragons and started with less then a thousand men and conquered the entire seven kingdoms. Add a dragon to any army in open field and you will win.

[Japper007]

3 hours ago, xjlxking said:

They are also the only army so far that have light cavalry archers which in  both antiquity and medieval period was considered to be the best type of army. Why? Mostly because a knight on a horse, or a foot solider can never decide the battlefield. It's the lightly armored cavalry archers who can pick and choose where he can make a stand or run. The bow and arrow means that the charging infantry or heavy cavalry can never march to chase without being picked or harassed. 

 

 

Cavalry archers have never been considered the be-all-end-all of ancient warfare, even the Mongols who were known for their cavalry archers, deployed in units that consisted of 4 (heavy) lancers supported by only two cavalry archers. Same goes for the Parthians (whose cav archers were supported by the famous Cataphracts, a super-heavy cavalry unit), and also for the Huns and other Steppe peoples that fell on the Roman Empire (who used fast, manouverable, light lancers). Cavalry archery has been mythologized all out of proportion to its actual importance and impact on the medieval/ancient battlefield.

The (mostly) heavy cavalry knightly orders triumphed on several occasions over numerically overwhelming odds against Islamic light cavalry and horse archery fighting styles. (see also: Morton, Medieval Military Orders) They were only outright defeated on the open field after their Islamic opponents adopted their own heavy cavalry. According to real history; a smaller force of Westerosi knights should carve through the Dorthraki like butter.

[Lurid Jester]

I think that no army that Jamie is saying that no army that they could field would be able to stand against the Dothraki. 

A lot of people have died in the last six years.  

Now, put that horde of light cavalry (sans dragons) against the armies fielded by he various sides early on?  No.  Dothraki aren't winning. 

Catching a weakened enemy force flat footed and on the march is not the same as proof of superiority across the board.  

 

[Hrulj]

2 hours ago, goomba said:

i have to disagree, each Dothraki looked like they cut down at least 3 Lannister men before getting killed themselves. Not bad, that means 1 Dothraki is worth atleast 3 Lannister men.

Most soldiers, meaning 80-90% in a medieval battle died during the rout. Lannister lines were broken by dragonsand they were routing. Hardly a fight of equals.

[daemonTheBlack]

"Lets ignore what the warriors and generals that actually live in the world of Game of Thrones are saying, because of course we nerds know best, and are experts on military matters after playing Age of Empires and Total War sitting in a basement."

[Alfonso Sánchez]

3 hours ago, daemonTheBlack said:

"Lets ignore what the warriors and generals that actually live in the world of Game of Thrones are saying, because of course we nerds know best, and are experts on military matters after playing Age of Empires and Total War sitting in a basement."

Some of us have a master in steel manufacturing so we know a thing or 2 on weapon forging, and there could be some people here who have history studies too... not every GoT fan is a simple raging nerd...

 

[Alfonso Sánchez]

5 hours ago, goomba said:

i have to disagree, each Dothraki looked like they cut down at least 3 Lannister men before getting killed themselves. Not bad, that means 1 Dothraki is worth atleast 3 Lannister men.

When the line and morale is broken, any army could do that, that is the whole point of a battle, to break the enemy and start slaughtering them, what you see in movies is not the way battles worked.

A dragon is very powerful because he is the ultimate shock unit and the ultimate morale breaker.

[snow is the man]

17 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

I disagree I think they would have faired just as well without Drogon, obivously a few more Dothraki would have died. We see drogon break the line of soldiers for the Dothraki to steam through, now quite clearly this helps but a few scences later we see the Dothraki smash another part of the line. The first charge is somewhat held then the second pretty much destroys the what did hold on the first charge.

I agree with you the Dothraki are not the best soldiers as Jamie pretty much said. I think he should have said they are Barbaric, moral less and the shear size of the Army would run over all the Armies Cersei/Jamie could muster together.

Wait you think that they would have fared just as well without drogon? They might have won but the loss's they would have taken would be on a level that destroys their army.  The way the dothraki fought the lannisters was the worst way to fight that type of infantry.  I think what jaime meant by his "it was sport for them not war" comment was that they enjoyed it and they are savage. But when he talks to bron about it after the battle it is about the dragon not the dothraki.

[plastic throne]

4 hours ago, daemonTheBlack said:

"Lets ignore what the warriors and generals that actually live in the world of Game of Thrones are saying, because of course we nerds know best, and are experts on military matters after playing Age of Empires and Total War sitting in a basement."

 

The irony is, you just described the show writers. Those same people that created all those half brain GoT generals.

Japper and Alfonso are right and very insightful/interesting to read.

[Samwell_Tarly]

4 hours ago, snow is the man said:

Wait you think that they would have fared just as well without drogon? They might have won but the loss's they would have taken would be on a level that destroys their army.  The way the dothraki fought the lannisters was the worst way to fight that type of infantry.  I think what jaime meant by his "it was sport for them not war" comment was that they enjoyed it and they are savage. But when he talks to bron about it after the battle it is about the dragon not the dothraki.

In reality things would be much different...BUT

Its the show, they looked good, they rode through enemy lines with ease, they literally slaughtered the Lannisters/Tarlys. I be interested to know how many Dothraki we actually lost. The show made them look good, the show made them the best army, and tahts how the viewer percieved them.

[Mikkel]

5 hours ago, Alfonso Sánchez said:

Some of us have a master in steel manufacturing so we know a thing or 2 on weapon forging, and there could be some people here who have history studies too... not every GoT fan is a simple raging nerd...

 

Don't mind the troll, its whole thing is calling everyone nerds when they don't agree with it. That someone could be a normal, successful, well-adjusted person who lets their inner nerd out on a fantasy show/book is apparently too complex a concept for them.

[goomba]

12 hours ago, Alfonso Sánchez said:

When the line and morale is broken, any army could do that, that is the whole point of a battle, to break the enemy and start slaughtering them, what you see in movies is not the way battles worked.

A dragon is very powerful because he is the ultimate shock unit and the ultimate morale breaker.

Yes, but the sight of an endless sea of screaming riders who look like they want to charge right through you is also a huge shock and morale breaker too.

There was a clip of a Lannister soldier visibly shaking and this was a couple seconds even before Drogon appeared. 

That soldier knew he was going to die even before the Dragon showed up.

[Samwell_Tarly]

1 minute ago, goomba said:

Yes, but the sight of an endless sea of screaming riders who look like they want to charge right through you is also a huge shock and morale breaker too.

There was a clip of a Lannister soldier visibly shaking and this was a couple seconds even before Drogon appeared. 

That soldier knew he was going to die even before the Dragon showed up.

Even Bronn told Jaime ''the fuckers are about to swomp us'' 

The Dothraki are overrated on the show, but in a realistic sense they are under rated.  

[Lord Okra]

It is a tv show yall.

And the writers did a good job setting up a plausible way that the Dothraki could route a well trained army.

Starting with....

The Lannisters were crossing a river and the army was divided in a way that the whole force couldn't be brought to face the threat.

Then...

The Lannister army had no forewarning which meant all they could manage was a weak line as a defense.

Plus...

They got their meager line shredded by a dragon.

Add in...

They outnumbered the Lannisters at least 5-1 and since the army was divided it was really more like 10-1.

I don't think even the show writers would think it'd be easy for the Dothraki if they didn't have those things working for them.  Infantry, with time, can provide itself with plenty of ways to fight off light calvary.  And, if we want to be all "real" then you simply won't see horses charge willingly into a line of soldiers.  It just doesn't really happen as horses are not inclined at all to drive into a hoard of men waving pointy objects at them.

The writers set up somewhat realistic scenario that put the Lannister army in a terrible position so that they could be routed with ease.

If they hadn't done it like they did then it would have been too far fetched to believe at all.

If the Lannister army had not been divided and had time to prepare even meager fortifications or gather into proper lines....and weren't facing a 10-1 numerical disadvantage plus a dragon.....then it would have been a proper fight.