TheRevanchist

The burning of the Tarlys - discussion

151 posts in this topic

The more I think about it, the more I get convinced that the execution of Tarlys don't make sense for any of the characters.

Randyll: I would have appreciated more if it was an acceptance that he had done wrong by choosing the wrong side and betraying everything he believed on in order to become Warden of the South, and so causing so many deaths which result in nothing for him. A bit like the last moments of Ser Allistar Thorn. But here, he looked like he was in love with Queen Cersei, which makes no sense in whatever direction you look at. And even there, when he saw Dickon joining him, it made sense to change his mind. After all, Eddard Stark betrayed his honor to save Sansa, and Eddard was 10 times the man Randyll is.

Dickon: why, just why? Sure, his dad might have made the wrong choice and decided to live (and die) with it, but Dickon why?

Daenerys: she didn't even try to make him change his mind. She didn't even play the loyalty card (Tarly was a Targaryan loyalist during the war). And with Baratheon brothers, Tywin and Ned dead (and JonCon cut from the show), he is the best general in Westeros. Considering that Daenerys is on desperate need of a general (Daario was superb but she left him in Essos), she could have moved heaven and earth to convince Tarly to join her. It is easy in the battle for the Iron Throne, but in a war between equals (at best), she needs all the assets she can get.

Tyrion: at least he tried, but probably could have tried harder.

Writers: at this stage, only the warriors matter, so I do not get why they killed Tarly (and the actor seemed to be doing a very good job). It is time to chop of the likes of Littlefinger, Varys and other politicians, not the likes of Tarly.

It was a lose-lose situation for everyone, and they still went for it. Is the Night King the only rational person in the show?

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By killing the Tarly's off this season it leaves the door open for Samwell to become Lord Tarly after the wall falls and the nights watch is disbanded. There are 2 winners in game of thrones. #1 Hot Pie - kid has always had a job, a roof over his head and food. #2 Samwell Tarly who will write this story for all others to know.

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It has already been established that Tarly is a bigot who despises learning. He fought for the Mad King probably likes Cersei for the same reason. He stabbed Olena in the back, he disinherited his son.

Of course it was stupid for him to get roasted. But that is what people like that do. They don't understand what principle is so they stand on a principle that isn't one.

There is a martyrs memorial in Oxford to precisely the same type of idiocy.

Oh and I don't think Cersei is preggers.

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Deaenerys was really pulling that boss bitch card in the scene. At first she talked about being different than Cersei and immediately after that she gives you a perfect choice - kneel or be roasted alive. How is that different from Cersei? Unless it's worse than Cersei?

She could at least tried to look like the self-called saviour and offer Randyll to join the NW, like Tyrion suggested. When Randyll said that he won't take orders from her, she should have said that it is not an order, it is a suggestion, so that Randyll could save at least a bit of honor. No, she was born to rule the 7K, so she just kills him.

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I think they were just clearing the way for Sam to take over as Lord of Horn Hill. 

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Posted (edited)

I was actually pleasantly surprised by the whole scene and how Daenerys handled it.

One of the bits and pieces of leaked material I accidentally read before this season started stated: 

"Daenerys burns a group of Westerosi lords, Randyll Tarly and Dickon among them."

The phrasing, combined with the shows...atrocious... handling of Elaria, the Sandsnakes and Cersei, and the scene were Daenerys burned that random nobleman in Meereen, made me worried that it would be just a scene of Daenerys randomly rounding up some nobles and burning them and that it would be presented in a way that was supposed to make Daenerys look "empowered" and "badass". 

Instead however, not only were the deaths of the Tarlies basically their own fault (Daenerys gave them a choice, after all) but even so Daenerys' idea to execute people with her dragons was seen as controversial by everybody around her.

Daenerys' actions were not portrayed as completely justified and it was stubbornness (and loyalty to the wrong person) that led to Randyll's and Dickon's demise.

Pretty good for the show, imho.

13 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

kneel or be roasted alive. How is that different from Cersei? Unless it's worse than Cersei?

The difference is that Daenerys gives you a choice, at all, Cersei just kills you if she thinks you have crossed her, or thinks that you might be planning on crossing her somewhen in the future, or happen to stand in a 500 meter radius of somebody who crossed her.

Daenerys executed two military commanders after giving them a choice to surrender. Cersei blew up hundreds of civilians for the crime of attending a trial.

See the difference?

Edited by Orphalesion

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10 minutes ago, Pecan said:

I think they were just clearing the way for Sam to take over as Lord of Horn Hill. 

That...and I do think it actually made sense for most characters.  Randyll is a narrow-minded bigoted idiot, of course he's not supporting Dany.  Dickon is a simple-minded idiot who would follow his dad like that.  Dany is obviously against slavery and didn't want to deal with taking prisoners- I think giving everyone a choice was as good as anyone could do in that situation.  

The only character it didn't quite make sense for for me was Tyrion, but I can chalk that up to his lingering remorse and guilt about watching all those Lannister men die.

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I thought the scene was done well.

It helped move the "Mad Dany" theme forward which has been a steady theme since she got her Dothraki hoard.

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I think they are trying to show the possibility that Daenerys isn't all that different in order to build tension and make it believable when she faces her 3rd betrayal (possibly from Tyrion).  As for Dickon, he has had a pretty stressful few weeks, can't blame him for wanting to end it beside his father.  And Randyll, well, he makes a good point - I'd want to die with a shred of dignity before bowing to a foreign invader who rules based on fear of her weapons of mass destruction and the horde of savage rapists and murderers.

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Posted (edited)

I did not get the idiot part from Dickon, at least not in the show. He seems like a young decent man, in the shadow of his dad - whose steps he is not necessarily going to follow. See the discussion between him and Jaime and Bronn. They are just cutting cast and making an effect. Dickon had his father's blessing to kneel and he should have. And Dany, Tyrion and especially Randyll should have tried a damn lot harder to hammer the point home - there is no reason for Dickon to die there. Randyll might have had second thoughts about his (insane) doublecrossing of Olenna as well, to the side of the Mad Queen that even Hot Pie knows blew up, among many other things, the Tyrrels.

Edited by Dragons 7th Eye

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6 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

I did not get the idiot part from Dickon, at least not in the show. He seems like a young decent man, in the shadow of his dad - whose steps he is not necessarily going to follow. See the discussion between him and Jaime and Bronn. They are just cutting cast and making an effect. Dickon had his father's blessing to kneel and he should have. And Dany, Tyrion and especially Randyll should have tried a damn lot harder to hammer the point home - there is no reason for Dickon to die there. Randyll might have had second thoughts about his (insane) doublecrossing of Olenna as well, to the side of the Mad Queen that even Hot Pie knows blew up, among many other things, the Tyrrels.

Dickon also would have the pressure of justifying his father's monstrous treatment of Sam.  By right, Sam should be the future lord of the Reach.  Randyll forces him to take the black because he is fat and thinks Dickon is a better heir.  That is a lot of pressure to put on Dickon.  If he falters, that means his father is just a monster rather than a stoic man doing what is best for his house in the long term.  

 

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18 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

The difference is that Daenerys gives you a choice, at all, Cersei just kills you if she thinks you have crossed her, or thinks that you might be planning on crossing her somewhen in the future, or happen to stand in a 500 meter radius of somebody who crossed her.

Daenerys executed two military commanders after giving them a choice to surrender. Cersei blew up hundreds of civilians for the crime of attending a trial.

See the difference?

I see what you mean, however comparing Daenerys burning the Tarlys and Cersei blowing up the Sept isn't fair, I think. A better comparison would be Cersei blowing up the Sept and Daenerys killing the Dothraki leaders last season. Both Daenerys and Cersei did what they had to to stay alive and free. They acted exactly the same way.

And on the other hand you have Daenerys immediately burning the Tarlys because they refused to bend the knee and Cersei arresting Ned in Season 1 because he refused to bend the knee and intending to let him join the NW (before Joffrey decided to **** it up). I'm not trying to defend Cersei and portray her as the best ruler ever, I just want to say that Daenerys isn't really that much better than her.

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3 hours ago, TheRevanchist said:

The more I think about it, the more I get convinced that the execution of Tarlys don't make sense for any of the characters.

Randyll: I would have appreciated more if it was an acceptance that he had done wrong by choosing the wrong side and betraying everything he believed on in order to become Warden of the South, and so causing so many deaths which result in nothing for him. A bit like the last moments of Ser Allistar Thorn. But here, he looked like he was in love with Queen Cersei, which makes no sense in whatever direction you look at. And even there, when he saw Dickon joining him, it made sense to change his mind. After all, Eddard Stark betrayed his honor to save Sansa, and Eddard was 10 times the man Randyll is.

Dickon: why, just why? Sure, his dad might have made the wrong choice and decided to live (and die) with it, but Dickon why?

Daenerys: she didn't even try to make him change his mind. She didn't even play the loyalty card (Tarly was a Targaryan loyalist during the war). And with Baratheon brothers, Tywin and Ned dead (and JonCon cut from the show), he is the best general in Westeros. Considering that Daenerys is on desperate need of a general (Daario was superb but she left him in Essos), she could have moved heaven and earth to convince Tarly to join her. It is easy in the battle for the Iron Throne, but in a war between equals (at best), she needs all the assets she can get.

Tyrion: at least he tried, but probably could have tried harder.

Writers: at this stage, only the warriors matter, so I do not get why they killed Tarly (and the actor seemed to be doing a very good job). It is time to chop of the likes of Littlefinger, Varys and other politicians, not the likes of Tarly.

It was a lose-lose situation for everyone, and they still went for it. Is the Night King the only rational person in the show?

I agree it does not made sense.  Randyll already did something monstrous to his oldest son to "protect" his house's future.  Why in the world would he now let it be extinguished over pride?  Its not like he felt guilt over how he treated Sam.  Maybe Tyrion should've mentioned Sam ending up lord of the Reach if Dickon and Randyll died. Hatred of Sam might have gotten Randyll to reconsider.

 

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1 hour ago, Drogo_1 said:

By killing the Tarly's off this season it leaves the door open for Samwell to become Lord Tarly after the wall falls and the nights watch is disbanded. There are 2 winners in game of thrones. #1 Hot Pie - kid has always had a job, a roof over his head and food. #2 Samwell Tarly who will write this story for all others to know.

Wouldn't Talla already be Lady of the Reach?  Something would have to happen to her to reinstate Sam, right?  Maybe she would be okay with it, but she did not seem to okay with Randyll's current plans to marry her off.

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26 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

That...and I do think it actually made sense for most characters.  Randyll is a narrow-minded bigoted idiot, of course he's not supporting Dany.  Dickon is a simple-minded idiot who would follow his dad like that.  Dany is obviously against slavery and didn't want to deal with taking prisoners- I think giving everyone a choice was as good as anyone could do in that situation.  

The only character it didn't quite make sense for for me was Tyrion, but I can chalk that up to his lingering remorse and guilt about watching all those Lannister men die.

In medieval times that was the choice you were given in defeat. There was no room for dissention in an absolute monarchy.

By refusing to recognize Daenerys as queen they were choosing death. It was not Daenerys making that decision for them. Tyrion arguing for them was a fool. He should have known better. Daenerys had no choice in the matter.

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Posted (edited)

54 minutes ago, Pecan said:

I think they were just clearing the way for Sam to take over as Lord of Horn Hill. 

I agree.

I don't have an issue with the choice Dany gave, and I think it was pretty generous to even offer that choice in the first place given that the soldiers and lords had helped destroy one of her key allies, but using dragonfire as a method of execution was completely unnecessary, not to mention very dumb for someone hoping to avoid being lumped in with her father.  It got the result she wanted, since after the executions the holdouts quickly bent the knee, but at what cost?

 

Quote

Daenerys: she didn't even try to make him change his mind.

It's not her job to change his mind. Why should she? He helped the Lannisters end what was left of the Tyrells. and after being defeated he still refused to recognize her as queen. Begging a traitor to save his own life after he already made it clear he would refuse to do so is beneath Dany's dignity if she intends to be taken seriously as a conqueror. He's an adult, she gave him an easy out, and he refused. Fair enough.

7x05 writer Dave Hill said that the Tarlys managed to get a loss out of a win-win situation. He's not wrong. Dany gave them a way to avoid death, and they refused. That's on them.

Edited by Newstar

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1 minute ago, Nerevanin said:

I see what you mean, however comparing Daenerys burning the Tarlys and Cersei blowing up the Sept isn't fair, I think. A better comparison would be Cersei blowing up the Sept and Daenerys killing the Dothraki leaders last season. Both Daenerys and Cersei did what they had to to stay alive and free. They acted exactly the same way.

And on the other hand you have Daenerys immediately burning the Tarlys because they refused to bend the knee and Cersei arresting Ned in Season 1 because he refused to bend the knee and intending to let him join the NW (before Joffrey decided to **** it up). I'm not trying to defend Cersei and portray her as the best ruler ever, I just want to say that Daenerys isn't really that much better than her.

Nope, on both accounts.

With Zombie Gregor by her side Cersei had a number of other options (it was shown that the Sparrows can't touch her with him around), she blew up the Sept out of spite for Margaery, to punish the Small Council for taking away her political power, and as a convenient way to rid her of both the Sparrows and a Tyrells, Not because she "had to". The whole trial situation was nothing but her own fault to begin with. 

And no it is not unfair to bring up the Sept in a comparison between Daenerys and Cersei. Blowing up hundreds of civilians is something Daenerys wants to avoid at all costs, while Cersei basically got off on it (judging by her creepy monologue to Septa Unella...that's something else Daenerys would never do, leaving an enemy to be raped by a zombie).

Even if we compare the Sept to the Dothraki leaders. The Dothraki leaders were, again, a military target. Of the thousands of civilians, slaves, traders, children, servants etc. that were in Vaes Dothrak that night not a single one lost their life because of Daenerys. She also went out of her way to protect the innocent bystanders during her wars in Slaver's Bay.

And above everything else, Daenerys still gave a choice, Cersei wouldn't (that with Ned was just in hopes of getting Jaime back, not out of any kind of mercy or compassion)

Unless you point me towards a scene, or passage in the books in which Daenerys randomly torched a crowd of civillians because they happen to stand next to somebody who inconvenienced her, then I gotta say Daenerys is leagues above Cersei.  

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Randyl Tarly's character motivations are completely and utterly nonsensical.

He despises Dany for being a 'foreigner' when she is the daughter of the king that HE PERSONALLY FOUGHT FOR during Robert's rebellion just a few years ago.

He admonishes Dany for bringing foreign savages to Westeros, despite the fact that she had the support of at least 2 great houses of Westeros and even while the Lannisters have been hiring foreign mercenary groups from Essos to fight in their wars for decades.

At the same time, he betrays his own oath to House Tyrell, to support a queen that apparently everybody knows by know has no legitimate claim to the throne, given that her children with the king where born of incest, and who blew up the heir to House Tyrell, along with the most Holy temple in the seven kingdoms, apparently killing thousands of innocent civilians.

Despite all this, and him being a great military commander, he allies his house in what is an obvious lost cause, and in the process dooming his son and his own legacy.

And finally at the prospect of his son being burned alive, the son who was his own personal project to turn into a worthy heir for his house given his disappointment with Sam, he makes an initial half-hearted protest to tell him to stand down, then half a minute later seems to think 'Oh, fine, come along then', and just stands there waiting for a dragon to roast them.

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Watching the scene again I liked how Randyll Tarly kind of takes Dickon by the arm to demonstrate how proud he was of his son even though he clearly had wanted him to bend the knee. If not for this being a drama show in reality all he really would have to of done is command his heir to obey him and Dickon would of done so. But then how could they plant the idea with (some of) audience that Dany is gonna go cray cray

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2 minutes ago, Rhymes with Sneak said:

Wouldn't Talla already be Lady of the Reach?  Something would have to happen to her to reinstate Sam, right?  Maybe she would be okay with it, but she did not seem to okay with Randyll's current plans to marry her off.

No, Samwell will probably be released from his vows by the Nights Watch to take his seat as Lord Tarly. The Nights Watch will likely be decimated when the Whitewalkers come across the wall in any case, so they won't be around to demand allegiance from anyone.

Succession in Westeros generally followed to males of the house, it is likely that there are other male Tarlys around (uncles or cousins) who would pick up the position in the event Sam could not. An example of how this worked in medieval times was the succession of Henry I on his death. The crown did not go to his legitimate daughter (Matilda), nor his numerous illegitimate sons, it went to his nephew, Stephen. Succession to females only occurred much later in the Renaissance era, when Mary took the throne. In medieval times being a lord carried with it the responsibility of leading troops into battle on behalf of your liege (in fact, it was your primary responsibility), which obviously women of the time were not equipped to do.

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