Bets On The Father of Cersei's Current Pregnancy?

[Cron]

1 hour ago, ERRI8013 said:

You're right, but Arya is expected... Jaime too... even the Dwarf... I think the unborn would be a great surprise and something in the show at the level of the books (imho).

Interesting food for thought, but here's how I view.

Jaime is expected, but was not expected when the prophecy of the Valonqar was first set forth.  in fact, at that time, Jaime was the least likely suspect, in my opinion.

That is critical, b/c GRRM has directly stated he will not change stuff just cuz fans figure it out in advance.

(An excellent example is R+L=J.  The theory became so widespread and so widely believe to be true, that people began asking GRRM if he would change stuff if fans figured them out, and, as I recall, GRRM said "no," basically b/c the books had been set up a certain way, and he can't go back and change stuff in books that were published 15 to 20 years ago just cuz fans figured stuff out a long time later. )

Thus, if it was GRRM's original intention that Jaime be the Valonqar, I predict Jaime will be the Valonqar, in books and show (yes, even if the show never actually uses the word "Valonqar," cuz we've been told the endings for major characters will be the same in books and show)

[beauty6]

Spoiler

The season 7 leak says it is Jaime.

 

[falcotron]

2 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

Also, in the show, while seemingly trying to offer sympathy/empathy about Bran's "fall" Cercei told Catelyn that her first child was a beautiful black haired baby boy who died (implying Robert as the father).  But then that was never mentioned or factored in anywhere again (that I remember).

Honestly, I think D&D didn't originally intend to use the prophecy at all back in S1. So they were free to change the implication that Cersei had cynically aborted Robert's child into a claim that she'd tragically borne him a baby who died. Four years later, they decided it would make the deaths of Cersei's children more tragic and dramatic if they added the prophecy flashback after all. But multiple characters had already referred to Joffrey as the firstborn or eldest child over the next few seasons, so it's pretty obvious that the sickly baby didn't count by Westerosi customs,* so Cersei only bore three children, so it doesn't really affect the prophecy.

Myrcella, on the other hand, does. I think when they added the prophecy in, they still expected to do the Dornish stuff mostly off-camera, which meant it would be mostly unchanged from the books, so the crowns had the same double meaning as in the books. But then, at the last second, they decided to do Dorne on screen, which meant they had to change it into Jaime's family tragedy story, which meant Myrcella had to die instead of being crowned as a figurehead for a rebellion, which meant the ironic literal meaning no longer works—worse, it two-thirds works, and is one-third ironic, so it seems like Maggy must have screwed up.

 

* That doesn't tell us why the baby didn't count, only that it didn't. But that's pretty easy to explain. Of course it's possible neither GRRM nor D&D thought this through and it's pure retcon, but I'm pretty sure Westeros counts babies if they survive the birthing room to be held up and named. We know they have some kind of official naming that usually happens a few minutes after birth, and that it's so important a tradition that they count namedays instead of birthdays. Cultures with organized religions often have some arbitrary but specific cutoff for when someone counts as a person or as a child, and this tradition would be well within the range of normal human cultures.

[Katleesi]

On 8/14/2017 at 6:32 PM, Wildling Queen said:

I don't have any doubts at this point that it's Jaime's baby. I just don't think it will matter. That prophecy told her she'd have three children, not four.

THIS!!!! Exactly what I came her to bring up.  Although I don't actually think she is pregnant, the prophecy only saw 3 children for her, 16 for Robert. 

[Cron]

7 hours ago, Katleesi said:

THIS!!!! Exactly what I came her to bring up.  Although I don't actually think she is pregnant, the prophecy only saw 3 children for her, 16 for Robert. 

Yes, great point.   I agree that the prophecy makes it extremely unlikely that Cersei's current pregnancy will result in a baby being born alive, no matter who the father is.

[ShadowKitteh]

On 8/17/2017 at 10:05 AM, A Time for Starks said:

99.0% Jaime

0.7% Tycho Nestoris

0.2% Qyburn

0.1% Euron

60% Jamie

40% Euron

0% chance anyone else

She is nobility. And currently self-proclaimed Queen. No way she would fuck "the help," and that's what both Tycho & Qyburn are to her. 

[Cron]

15 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

60% Jamie

40% Euron

0% chance anyone else

She is nobility. And currently self-proclaimed Queen. No way she would fuck "the help," and that's what both Tycho & Qyburn are to her. 

Well, at least you allow for a 40% probability that the father is Euron.

But as far as Cersei having sex with "the help" goes, uh, she already has.  Lancel in the show (minimally), and Lancel and the 3 Kettleblack brothers in the books (minimally).

Indeed, just cuz the 3 Kettleblack brothers were left out of the show does not necessarily lead me to believe that show-Cersei is "morally" better than boo-Cersei.  It could easily just mean that the show didn't have time to show all of that, and chose to prioritize other stuff.

In fact, that's my default assumption while watching the show.  Unless the show specifically contradicts the books, I still believe book-canon still applies, even for the show.

So, in my mind, YEAH, Cersei would, and DOES, let the "help" have sex with her body in exchange for stuff.

[Apoplexy]

16 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

60% Jamie

40% Euron

0% chance anyone else

She is nobility. And currently self-proclaimed Queen. No way she would fuck "the help," and that's what both Tycho & Qyburn are to her. 

I agree, Qyburn being the father is extremely unlikely. However Tycho is capable of providing Cersei something she needs in exchange. Not that I think it's Tycho, but I don't think show Cersei is above having sex with anybody if it benefits her.

[falcotron]

8 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I agree, Qyburn being the father is extremely unlikely. However Tycho is capable of providing Cersei something she needs in exchange. Not that I think it's Tycho, but I don't think show Cersei is above having sex with anybody if it benefits her.

I'm pretty sure that if Tycho is sleeping with Cersei, or even interested in it, they haven't told Mark Gatiss. He's not playing his dignified but slightly creepy straight guy character (see Dr Lazarus, his 70s BBC presenter, etc.), he's playing his dignified but slightly creepy no-interest-in-women character.

Also, I've just realized that I've seen (and listened to, thanks to Big Finish) way too many things with Mark Gatiss in them.

Although I guess I could imagine Cersei being totally oblivious to that and trying to seduce Tycho, and him going along with it to make her think she has an advantage that she doesn't…

[Green Knight]

I don't doubt it's the kingslayer's. He's been hitting it pretty good lately and unless I've missed something, there's no indication of any other bull in the pen that I know of. . . At least not lately.

[Apoplexy]

4 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

I don't doubt it's the kingslayer's. He's been hitting it pretty good lately and unless I've missed something, there's no indication of any other bull in the pen that I know of. . .

Book Cersei was sleeping with multiple people in addition to Jaime, hence the speculations about the father.

[Green Knight]

6 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Book Cersei was sleeping with multiple people in addition to Jaime, hence the speculations about the father.

I know. I'm talking about the show though. As far as I know there's been no indication of anybody on the show lately. 

[Apoplexy]

5 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

I know. I'm talking about the show though. As far as I know there's been no indication of anybody on the show lately. 

No indication of anyone else on the show, that's right. But Cersei being a bit, forceful, with Jaime during that sex scene makes me think the father could be someone else and she wanted to make Jaime believe it's him.

[Green Knight]

4 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

No indication of anyone else on the show, that's right. But Cersei being a bit, forceful, with Jaime during that sex scene makes me think the father could be someone else and she wanted to make Jaime believe it's him.

Good point and observation.

[Deminelle]

5 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

No indication of anyone else on the show, that's right. But Cersei being a bit, forceful, with Jaime during that sex scene makes me think the father could be someone else and she wanted to make Jaime believe it's him.

Yes, very plausible.

It would be awesome if she had met Daario somehow.

[Cron]

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I agree, Qyburn being the father is extremely unlikely. However Tycho is capable of providing Cersei something she needs in exchange. Not that I think it's Tycho, but I don't think show Cersei is above having sex with anybody if it benefits her.

I agree, b/c I strongly believe that is also true of book-Cersei.

Unless we are specifically told in the show that something is different from the books, I see no reason to make assumptions based on raw speculation that they ARE different in the show as compared to the books.

And indeed, on this subject, not only are we NOT told that show-Cersei is different from book-Cersei, but the show has information consistent with a belief that they are the same, to wit, the fact that Cersei has sex with Lancel in the books and show for reasons that appear to be no more than (a) he is useful to her, so she rewards him with sex (and keeps him loyal with sex), and (b) it is recreational for her while Jaime is away.

Given this behavior by Cersei in books and show, it is easy for me to imagine her having sex with any number (and/or variety) of people.

(By the way, in the books, doesn't she sleep with that lady friend of hers, too?  Can't recall if Cersei was having sex with her or not, though, and I can't recall the lady's name offhand, either..)

[Cron]

5 hours ago, Green Knight said:

I don't doubt it's the kingslayer's. He's been hitting it pretty good lately and unless I've missed something, there's no indication of any other bull in the pen that I know of. . . At least not lately.

But...that's exactly what would make it a shocking reveal for the viewers.

There was no "warning build up" to the Red Wedding, either, among many other things.  That was part of what gave the Red Wedding so much impact, the sudden shock of what was occurring.

[Cron]

5 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

No indication of anyone else on the show, that's right. But Cersei being a bit, forceful, with Jaime during that sex scene makes me think the father could be someone else and she wanted to make Jaime believe it's him.

BINGO!

Exactly.

In my mind, these puzzle pieces fit together QUITE nicely.

Maybe someone has a better memory, but I cannot recall Cersei ever being so aggressive in initiating sex with Jaime before.

In fact, to my memory, it's been Jaime chasing Cersei and pressuring HER for sex, and being turned down more than once.

So, now, suddenly...she's sexually aggressive with Jaime???

I believe she found out she was pregnant by some other guy (probably Euron), and said "Uh oh, better have sex with Jaime real soon here, or he's gonna know he's not the father!"

[falcotron]

3 minutes ago, Cron said:

(By the way, in the books, doesn't she sleep with that lady friend of hers, too?  Can't recall if Cersei was having sex with her or not, though, and I can't recall the lady's name offhand, either..)

Taena Merryweather.

From what I remember, they do have what we'd consider lesbian sex, but apparently Westerosi don't think of it that way, or at least Cersei doesn't, and she even wishes she were a man so it could count as sex, or something like that?

 

[ShadowKitteh]

The Help ≠ Lancel & the Kettleblacks. 

Lancel is Noble/Highborn and family. The Kettleblacks are Noble/Highborn. You don't fuck your OBGYN, and Bankers are considered Merchants. Huge difference in Westerosi society between Nobleborn and everyone else.

Totally agree with Cersei jumping Jamie to make him believe it's his child. Also pretty sure Euron made it back to KL before Jamie did, and demanded payment. Can totally see it.