Jump to content

Daenerys will Break the Wheel


Only 89 selfies today

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

Other than having a former slave as one of "her most trusted advisors" (allegedly, because I don't remember Missandei actually advising Dany all that much), what has Dany done to suggest she'll improve the lives of the average Westerosi commoner? 

She only just got there, and is in the middle of fighting a war with a batshit crazy cunt, I'd say she's more focused on defeating her at the moment.

The Dragon Bay cities did have a lot of economic instability following her invasion, which is to be expected when the main trade of a city is destroyed. But she's not wrong in abolishing slavery, the Free cities can and do run successfully without slaves trade, and after a period of adjustment, so could the former slave cities. Tyrions plan was starting to work in the show, but the slavers started to rebel- not that I don't understand their motivation, I do. But I'm on the side of former slaves here, I'm sure they're happy to be free.

Didnt American South enter a period of economic instability following a defeat by confederates and freedom of slaves? It's a price to pay for getting rid of slavery and losing a war, whether slavers like it or not.

Plus, whilst she didn't commit any men to the Wall, she did allow Jon to mine dragon glass and sent her adviser in to treat with Cersei to convince her to have an armistice. That's not bad for someone who just scored a major win and could simply plough on with invasion. Hell, if she were MadQueen 2.0, Cersei would be cinders by now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

if she were MadQueen 2.0, Cersei would be cinders by now

Aerys also grew into his madness, and if you think Dany isn't much more cruel and authoritarian than she was back in season 1, you haven't been paying attention.

"Serve me or die in dragonflame" is not the words of someone actually intending to break the wheel - it's the words of someone determined to be the wheel, even if it means breaking all the other spokes. People are not "free" under Daenerys, except in so far as they're free to serve or die - which is not at all different from Cersei or any other feudal ruler.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

I love Daenerys and she has a history of success in the Bay of Dragons when she brought freedom to the slaves.  She broke the Wheel in Essos and ended the slave trade.  But today was the day of judgment for the Tarlys and it was not the time to give the details of her plans.  She understands that to help people one must be in a position of strength. I hope Daenerys will get the chance to build that better world after the war with the Others have been won. 

If Daenerys don't destroy feudalism and aristocracy she is just a slave master with another title.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Aerys also grew into his madness, and if you think Dany isn't much more cruel and authoritarian than she was back in season 1, you haven't been paying attention.

"Serve me or die in dragonflame" is not the words of someone actually intending to break the wheel - it's the words of someone determined to be the wheel, even if it means breaking all the other spokes. People are not "free" under Daenerys, except in so far as they're free to serve or die - which is not at all different from Cersei or any other feudal ruler.

Unlike Aerys, Dany has made rational decisions and isn't powered by paranoia. Nor does she enjoy killing and laugh whilst doing, as Aerys had.

Even Honourable Ned has executed a nights watch deserter at the start of the season,    dismissing his WW testimony, that's what the Westerosi society is like.

She is more authoritarian and more likely to take direct any action than she was in season 1, although back in season one she was burning Mirri Maz out of revenge, so she was on her way to becoming ruthless even then. And she's not 16 anymore, and is still alive, she had to learn to be ruthless to survive. 

She gave captured enemy combatants a choice - something not every military commander would do. Tyrion even suggested taking the black, which they refused. What was she supposed to do with them, send them back to Cersei or put them in chains? I always saw her "Breaking the Wheel" speech as being addressed to all common folks, not soldiers who fight her vassals. She's planning to improve the lives of people who serve her, and so far, people who follow her were treated well. She gives them the same choice Aegon gave his subjects, how is she supposed to win, by asking nicely? These soldiers just slaughtered her allies, their liege lady and they refused to do much as negotiate, or take the black, because of xenophobia - apparently Cersei is ok, cause she was born in Westeros, and Dany is not. The difference between Dany and Cersei is in that whilst Dany might strongarm those into serving her, she actually rewards people for said service, whilst Cersei makes promises and then kills her opponents because they "betrayed" her. You, like most of her critics, are judging her by modern standards, and she is stuck in a quasi medieval setting. Tbh, before the Geneva convention, treatment of POWs was pretty brutal, and that happened just a few decades ago. It was only the sheer scale of WW2 atrocities on both sides that broke our wheel, and it's still in place in many instances- Guantamo Bay would like to have a word. Even the original version of democracy from Greece was not the version we have today, it was limited to noblemen, women and slaves need not apply. 

She's not going to win a war by throwing leaflets at the enemy camp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Daenerys is the most irrationally hated character by (some) fans of the show. The internet exhibits massive double standards when it comes to Daenerys.

By GoT standards of "rulership" (Aegon I, Robert, Stannis, Tywin, Robb, Cersei et al) Dany is one of the most calculated and benevolent rulers in the story. She has the right balance of mercy and ruthlessness, trickery and honor.

In my experience the hate is almost entirely limited to people who have never read the books. Her PoV chapters make her thought process and rationale very clear, and it has remained consistent throughout the series, including these two post-book seasons.

If Dany is mad, then so is every f*cking character in the series.

_________________________

That being said, expect both Dany and Jon to die by the end of the story. It will not be A Song of Ice and Fire otherwise.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

Daenerys is the most irrationally hated character by (some) fans of the show. The internet exhibits massive double standards when it comes to Daenerys.

By GoT standards (Aegon I, Robert, Stannis, Tywin, Robb, Cersei et al) Dany is one of the most calculated and benevolent rulers in the story. She has the right balance of mercy and ruthlessness, trickery and honor.

In my experience the hate is almost entirely limited to people who have never read the books. Her PoV chapters make her thought process and rationale very clear, and it has remained consistent throughout the series.

If Dany is mad, then so is every f*cking character in the series.

 

This. I hate the double standards applied to her for executing her enemies when most popular and honourable characters did that freely- with regrets, but freely. Ned executed nights watch deserters, both he and Mormont hunted wildlings, Greyjoy Rebellion participants were crushed, Tywin set his mad dogs on people, Rob executed his banner man and lost the war because he was kind to the enemy and the enemy don't give a shit, Jon executed Thorne and Olly, Tarly and Lannister forces killed Tyrell forces, Euron killed and mutilated the Dornish fleet, Arya has killed the whole Frey family, Larry threatened to splatter little Tully heir over the walls of Riverrun, threw Bran out of the window and killed his own cousin to escape, not to mention what Cersei gets up to. 

The only people who haven't killed anyone are Sansa, Sam and Bran. It's a wonder they're still alive tbh. 

*I totally forgot that Sweet Sansa has fed Ramsay to his dogs. By using the logic some people employ, she is becoming the Mad Lady of Winterfell for using such an inhumane method. She should totally have set Ramsay and the Bolton forces free.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

5 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

Daenerys is the most irrationally hated character by (some) fans of the show. The internet exhibits massive double standards when it comes to Daenerys.

And it's irrational because you say so?

3 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

In my experience the hate is almost entirely limited to people who have never read the books.

Nope, the books show why she's a horrible ruler, and unlike the show does not whitewash her worst acts (despite having only Dany's self-rationalizing point of view to display it through).

Out of all the characters, Dany gets by far the best PR from the changes made on the show, bar none. Jon also looks great in the show, but he doesn't have Dany's catalogue of atrocities in the books.

Even Tyrion is waking up and smelling the napalm, and Varys is painting a very clear picture of how serving her becomes more and more like serving Aerys - yes, he recognizes that she's not beyond redemption yet, and that's true, but she is going down a dark road indeed.

21 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

Unlike Aerys, Dany has made rational decisions and isn't powered by paranoia. Nor does she enjoy killing and laugh whilst doing, as Aerys had.

She may not enjoy it yet, which is why she's not beyond redemption, but she's still young. She certainly didn't have to use the dragon for execution, that was 100% cruelty.

 

22 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

She is more authoritarian and more likely to take direct any action than she was in season 1, although back in season one she was burning Mirri Maz out of revenge, so she was on her way to becoming ruthless even then. And she's not 16 anymore, and is still alive, she had to learn to be ruthless to survive.

Yes, burning people is not new with her, her downwards slide started right around the same time she started with blood magic and human sacrifice. Gee, I wonder if there's a connection.

 

23 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

She gave captured enemy combatants a choice - something not every military commander would do. Tyrion even suggested taking the black, which they refused. What was she supposed to do with them, send them back to Cersei or put them in chains?

I don't think we see any commanders flat-out murder any captured soldiers who won't follow them afterwards. Send them back to Cersei? No, of course not. Strip them of arms and send them home (for the grunts) while keeping the leaders captive? Sure. Seems much more reasonable than burning anyone who doesn't join her. Hint: "Serve me or die" is what a slaver says, not a freer of slaves.

 

26 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

people who follow her were treated well

Yes, but they are only "free" to serve her, they're not free to do anything else. Does this really sound like someone interested in breaking the wheel to you?

 

28 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

The difference between Dany and Cersei is in that whilst Dany might strongarm those into serving her, she actually rewards people for said service, whilst Cersei makes promises and then kills her opponents because they "betrayed" her.

Who has been rewarded by Dany again? The Unsullied are now free to go and die for her. Supposedly that's their choice. The same cannot be said for the Lannister troops she just forced to join her. Threatening with dragonflame goes FAR beyond strongarming, by the way. And yes, Cersei is scum, but seriously - if "slightly better than Cersei" is your criteria for enlightened rule, then we have nothing to discuess.

 

30 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

You, like most of her critics, are judging her by modern standards, and she is stuck in a quasi medieval setting

No, she's the one doing that by repeatedly and ad nauseum claiming that she's better than everyone else, when in fact she's just the same, or worse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

I love Daenerys and she has a history of success in the Bay of Dragons when she brought freedom to the slaves.  She broke the Wheel in Essos and ended the slave trade.  But today was the day of judgment for the Tarlys and it was not the time to give the details of her plans.  She understands that to help people one must be in a position of strength. I hope Daenerys will get the chance to build that better world after the war with the Others have been won. 

But from Meereen we know that while she can break and destroy societal systems she is completely incapable of putting new mechanisms in place. And of course there is the double meaning. She doesn't mean democracy. She means to destroy the power of the Lords so that she as Queen can reign unhindered. In the real world it was other way around that was the first break in the wheel, Magna Carta.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

And it's irrational because you say so?

Nope, the books show why she's a horrible ruler, and unlike the show does not whitewash her worst acts (despite having only Dany's self-rationalizing point of view to display it through).

Out of all the characters, Dany gets by far the best PR from the changes made on the show, bar none. Jon also looks great in the show, but he doesn't have Dany's catalogue of atrocities in the books.

Even Tyrion is waking up and smelling the napalm, and Varys is painting a very clear picture of how serving her becomes more and more like serving Aerys - yes, he recognizes that she's not beyond redemption yet, and that's true, but she is going down a dark road indeed.

She may not enjoy it yet, which is why she's not beyond redemption, but she's still young. She certainly didn't have to use the dragon for execution, that was 100% cruelty.

 

Yes, burning people is not new with her, her downwards slide started right around the same time she started with blood magic and human sacrifice. Gee, I wonder if there's a connection.

 

I don't think we see any commanders flat-out murder any captured soldiers who won't follow them afterwards. Send them back to Cersei? No, of course not. Strip them of arms and send them home (for the grunts) while keeping the leaders captive? Sure. Seems much more reasonable than burning anyone who doesn't join her. Hint: "Serve me or die" is what a slaver says, not a freer of slaves.

 

Yes, but they are only "free" to serve her, they're not free to do anything else. Does this really sound like someone interested in breaking the wheel to you?

 

Who has been rewarded by Dany again? The Unsullied are now free to go and die for her. Supposedly that's their choice. The same cannot be said for the Lannister troops she just forced to join her. Threatening with dragonflame goes FAR beyond strongarming, by the way. And yes, Cersei is scum, but seriously - if "slightly better than Cersei" is your criteria for enlightened rule, then we have nothing to discuess.

 

No, she's the one doing that by repeatedly and ad nauseum claiming that she's better than everyone else, when in fact she's just the same, or worse.

Varys is a hypocritical little shit. He was the one to negotiate her sex slavery to Khal Drogo, he was the one to order the assassins to poison a 16 year old pregnant girl, he was the one behind Vicerys initially, despite the fact that Vicerys was far more unhinged to start with. Frankly, his little speech was grating- he whined about giving people for Aerys to burn, and in the book it was clear he was doing that on his own accord, pointing his finger at the right people at the right time. 

Using the dragons to kill them was an overkill (pun intended), but then, it was a quicker death than slow roasting Aerys or Stannis (another fan favourite) has employed. And I'd say her use of dragons has intimidated more people into submission, thereby saving more lives from Tarly stupidity- and yes, their reason are stupid and they are stupid traitors. I agree that she should've taken their heads, but the end result is the same, they'd be dead regardless.

Just because we haven't seen military commanders executing those that won't bend the knee in the show doesn't mean it never happened. What do you think became of Bolton forces past defeat? What did Tywin do to Reynes and Tarbecks? What happened to the north men than refused to bend the knee past Red Wedding or during it? What do you think Tarly offered to Highgarden troops? Ned tended to offer taking the black as an option, but they refused to do that.

Releasing them or putting them in chains was not an option. She's against putting people in chains, even if it means saving their life (and Tarly clearly preferred to die than being imprisoned), and they wouldn't lay their arms down- they'd go back to fighting for  Cersei. They have been offered taking the black- they refused. But they had more of a choice than Robbs company or Olennas troops have.

She rewarded the Unsullied with freedom. They are free to desert her if they wish to, but from what I've seen so far, she's the best employer they've ever had, so they might not be in a hurry to leave her, and if they wanted to, they could have, at any time. But if they leave her, they'd still have to find a vocation, and their best skill is fighting. They can leave and become sellswords, which means fighting for someone else- can't see them going down that route. 

Shes not only better than Cersei, she's better and fairer (not kinder) than most military commanders that we've seen so far, save Rob and Ned, and Starks are hardly the standard to set by, given how their honesty and honour and kindness has got them killed and put their children/siblings in danger. 

And no, she isn't claiming that's she's better than everyone, there is no "everyone", given how most houses are dead. She is claiming that she's better than Cersei, and she is, whether it's a good standard to set by, or not. Like I said, this is a medieval setting, where commanders like Cersei are more common, and she is better by their standards. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

Just because we haven't seen military commanders executing those that won't bend the knee in the show doesn't mean it never happened. What do you think became of Bolton forces past defeat?

Oh, so no-one has done it, but your argument is that "someone probably did anyway" because then by contrast Dany doing it too looks better?

3 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

What did Tywin do to Reynes and Tarbecks?

He killed the whole family, but there's nothing to suggest he killed all their men, outside of what happened in battle. It's also worth noting that doing this made him infamous, and was widely regarded as exceptional.

5 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

their reason are stupid and they are stupid traitors

Yes, well argued. I'll come back if I want more kindergarten-level discourse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

And it's irrational because you say so?

No. You yourself are a practical proof the irrationality and double standards. 

47 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Nope, the books show why she's a horrible ruler, and unlike the show does not whitewash her worst acts (despite having only Dany's self-rationalizing point of view to display it through).

Out of all the characters, Dany gets by far the best PR from the changes made on the show, bar none. Jon also looks great in the show, but he doesn't have Dany's catalogue of atrocities in the books.

Even Tyrion is waking up and smelling the napalm, and Varys is painting a very clear picture of how serving her becomes more and more like serving Aerys - yes, he recognizes that she's not beyond redemption yet, and that's true, but she is going down a dark road indeed.

"the show makes her look much better" "let me give you examples from the show about how people hate her". Yup, totally rational.

47 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Yes, but they are only "free" to serve her, they're not free to do anything else. Does this really sound like someone interested in breaking the wheel to you?

Yes... this is a FEUDAL medieval setting. Not a pacifist communist utopia. Look up what feudal means.

47 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

I don't think we see any commanders flat-out murder any captured soldiers who won't follow them afterwards. Send them back to Cersei? No, of course not. Strip them of arms and send them home (for the grunts) while keeping the leaders captive? Sure. Seems much more reasonable than burning anyone who doesn't join her. Hint: "Serve me or die" is what a slaver says, not a freer of slaves.

Then you were not paying attention. Stannis burns his enemies, and even friends and family, alive. Tywin has entire armies and houses annihilated to every man, woman and child, without a choice. Boltons go around killing wounded soldiers after the battle. Robert Baratheon and Aegon I gave their enemies the same choice after his war - "bend the knee or die". The rulers who tried to play "honorable" with prisoners, did not rule for very long. But why let details get in the way of double standards....

47 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Yes, burning people is not new with her, her downwards slide started right around the same time she started with blood magic and human sacrifice. Gee, I wonder if there's a connection.

I am curious.. who are you rooting for in this show? Hot Pie? Seems he is the only who will satisfy your PG13 Gandhian ideals. Perhaps you should stick to children's cartoons.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

No. You yourself are a practical proof the irrationality and double standards. 

Yes, great argument. I am because you say so. Jeez.

3 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

"the show makes her look much better" "let me give you examples from the show about how people hate her". Yup, totally rational.

No, I was giving an example of the show finally showing something awful, where previously they have skipped over it. It's rational, but only if you possess the superpower known as basic reading comprehension.

4 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

Yes... this is a FEUDAL medieval setting. Not a pacifist communist utopia. Look up what feudal means.

I know what feudal means. I also know maintaining a feudal society is entirely incompatible with any kind of break-the-wheel narrative. I am saying that her speeches are pure bullshit, either because she lies to herself, or because she lies to her followers. One of the two.

 

5 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

Then you were not paying attention. Stannis burns Mance Rayder alive. Tywin has entire armies and houses annihilated to every man, woman and child, without a choice. Boltons go around killing wounded soldiers after the battle. Robert Baratheon and Aegon I gave their enemies the same choice after his war - "bend the knee or die". The rulers who tried to play "honorable" with prisoners, did not rule for very long. But why let details get in the way of double standards....

Stannis does not murder all the Wildlings, though. As adressed above, Tywin killed off the Reynes and the Tarbecks, but there's no sign whatsoever that he did anything of the sort to the common soldiers. Also, Tywin is an infamously brutal man, who would gladly condemn his own son to death for being a dwarf - being better than him is not a great feat. I'm not sure what the Boltons did, but again: Is this really your best argument? Dany is slightly better than the most reprehensible characters?

As for Robert, he's famous for pardoning his enemies - yes, the rulers were expected to swear fealty, but there's no mention of him threatening to murder the common soldiers he captured.

But don't let facts get in the way of mindlessly defending Dany.

10 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

I am curious.. who are you rooting for in this show? Hot Pie? Seems he is the only who will satisfy your PG13 Gandhian ideals. Perhaps you should stick to children's cartoons.

Jon Snow, quite obviously. The only King who cares about his people more than he cares about rights and blood. But yes, you debate like a child so it makes sense you'd bring up cartoons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

This. I hate the double standards applied to her for executing her enemies when most popular and honourable characters did that freely- with regrets, but freely. Ned executed nights watch deserters, both he and Mormont hunted wildlings, Greyjoy Rebellion participants were crushed, Tywin set his mad dogs on people, Rob executed his banner man and lost the war because he was kind to the enemy and the enemy don't give a shit, Jon executed Thorne and Olly, Tarly and Lannister forces killed Tyrell forces, Euron killed and mutilated the Dornish fleet, Arya has killed the whole Frey family, Larry threatened to splatter little Tully heir over the walls of Riverrun, threw Bran out of the window and killed his own cousin to escape, not to mention what Cersei gets up to. 

Why is it double standards? I had no problem with her using  Drogon to burn the lines of soldiers in battle, but once they were defeated and unarmed, to burn them just because they don't "bend the knee" was just evil. Dragonstone has suitable dungeons to keep Lord Tarly and his son.

"Ned executed nights watch deserters". A deserter commits a crime punishable by death

"both he and Mormont hunted wildlings" .Wildlings cross the wall and steal, kill and rape the villagers,Mormont and Ned just did their duty protecting the people they had to protect.

" Greyjoy Rebellion participants were crushed," Treason.

"Tywin set his mad dogs on people," Yes, he did. He was a cruel and despicable man. I never see many people rooting for him. I'm glad he got the death he deserved.

"Rob executed his banner man"  Treason; he had all the right to do it. It was stupid, but not unjust.

"Jon executed Thorne and Olly". Treason

"Tarly and Lannister forces killed Tyrell forces" War.

"Euron killed and mutilated the Dornish fleet"  . War

"Arya has killed the whole Frey family". Justice. 

"Larry threatened to splatter little Tully heir over the walls of Riverrun, threw Bran out of the window and killed his own cousin to escape" Jaime is a dark character who has done many evil things, some people are willing to forgive him because he is not completely out of redemption, he is not a sociopath like his sister. If he actually gets to redeem himself or not, that remains to be seen. 

Danaerys is not out of redemption either, but that doesn't mean he has not done some terrible and unnecessary things. 
 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Oh, so no-one has done it, but your argument is that "someone probably did anyway" because then by contrast Dany doing it too looks better?

He killed the whole family, but there's nothing to suggest he killed all their men, outside of what happened in battle. It's also worth noting that doing this made him infamous, and was widely regarded as exceptional.

Yes, well argued. I'll come back if I want more kindergarten-level discourse.

As far as I remember, Hoster Tully put Lord Goodbrooks village to sword, because they were pro Targaryen loyalists, so clearly, that was not just Tywin. Tywin s case was exceptional because he didn't offer Reynes to bend the knee or take hostages or take his castle- he simply pulled down the whole structure and killed everyone. I have no idea what happened to Reyne's men, but it's unlikely that he just set them free and let them go on their merry way. Leaving survivors is a sure way to leave the door open to rebellions. 

Dany does look better in contrast to most Westerosi commanders, especially after the WOTFK. Yes, she's a bloody dictator by our modern standards, but as I said again, our standards do not apply. We have come a long way from the time period Westeros is meant to be in, we have no feudal law anymore. Even then, we have been known to use weapons of mass destruction just decades ago, dragon fire is comparable to nuclear weapons in universe, and to this day, white phosphorus is used by our allies and enemies alike. I don't care if it's a case of cultural relativism- the point is, she is a product of her lifetime, you can't expect her to be like Merkel or Trump, the only way she can make changes is by seizing control of a territory she wants to change.

Ok, I'll explain why I think Tarlys reasons are stupid, in case it was no apparent. He is supporting a usurper brotherfucking madwoman because "she was born in Westeros", completely disregarding that Dany was born on Dragonstone, which, the last time maps were drawn, is Westeros. He bitches about the Dothraki being rapists and pillagers, whilst being allied to the rapists and pillagers (but they're "our" rapists and pillagers, so they're ok). He went against his liege lady to support said usurper Queen, which in itself is treason. It would be slightly mitigating if he even supported Tommen- at least Tommen was a "Baratheon", i.e someone with a claim to the throne, however tenuous. Lannister siblings are not royalty, they struggle to control KL, let alone the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. Cersei has attacked the main religion of the region- she even replaced the seven pointed star with a bloody lion. They have turned on their liege for the Warden of The Reach position, which is on par with what Freys and Boltons have done. They should've have looked at how Tyrells were paid for following Lannisters.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

....

You have no idea what you are talking about. Read the books again. Read the World of Ice and Fire. I could give you a summary, but unfortunately I do not have the free time to make 4400 posts.

13 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Jon Snow, quite obviously. The only King who cares about his people more than he cares about rights and blood. But yes, you debate like a child so it makes sense you'd bring up cartoons.

Thats why Jon Snow died. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

Why is it double standards? I had no problem with her using  Drogon to burn the lines of soldiers in battle, but once they were defeated and unarmed, to burn them just because they don't "bend the knee" was just evil. Dragonstone has suitable dungeons to keep Lord Tarly and his son.

"Ned executed nights watch deserters". A deserter commits a crime punishable by death

"both he and Mormont hunted wildlings" .Wildlings cross the wall and steal, kill and rape the villagers,Mormont and Ned just did their duty protecting the people they had to protect.

" Greyjoy Rebellion participants were crushed," Treason.

"Tywin set his mad dogs on people," Yes, he did. He was a cruel and despicable man. I never see many people rooting for him. I'm glad he got the death he deserved.

"Rob executed his banner man"  Treason; he had all the right to do it. It was stupid, but not unjust.

"Jon executed Thorne and Olly". Treason

"Tarly and Lannister forces killed Tyrell forces" War.

"Euron killed and mutilated the Dornish fleet"  . War

"Arya has killed the whole Frey family". Justice. 

"Larry threatened to splatter little Tully heir over the walls of Riverrun, threw Bran out of the window and killed his own cousin to escape" Jaime is a dark character who has done many evil things, some people are willing to forgive him because he is not completely out of redemption, he is not a sociopath like his sister. If he actually gets to redeem himself or not, that remains to be seen. 

Danaerys is not out of redemption either, but that doesn't mean he has not done some terrible and unnecessary things. 
 

 

 

 

What Tarly did to Olenna is treason. Tarly was a Tyrell banner man, and was meant to support Olenna.

What Lannister forces do is support a ruler with no legitimate claim- that's treason. Lannisters have no claim to the throne in the world where you can only get to sit on a throne via three means: conquest, birthright and regency. Cersei is not a regent anymore, she hasn't conquered the seven kingdoms and she has no birthright. Even Gendry is more of a viable candidate. There is a reason Ned wasn't the king and Robert was- he had a Targ granny. It's not important to us, but it is important in context of the show and books.Supporting Cersei is treason, pure and simple. 

.  Daenerys brought justice for all the people the Lannister army has raped and pillagers through the course of the series. I don't care how many lovely Lannister soldiers Arya met on the road. For every nice and generous man there were those that raped and pillaged, just ask the Riverlands (thought they took battering from all sides).                                                        You argue that wildlings steal and rape and raid- guess what Tarly and Lannister forces were doing to Highgarden? Hell, even in the previous episode, Tarly was sending men to strongarm farmers into giving all of their grain to the capital- just before the coming winter, which certainly meant a hungry death for farmers. 

People don't root for Tywin, but in universe he was powerful and up until his son killed him (which was an unexpected event), he had control over the kingdom. That's not a gentle environment where a Jesus like figure can win a war. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

MM executing enemy houses leaders with fiiiire is Cersei crazy level 8. No one went there until she blew up the Sept, yeah Ned executed some nobody deserters- they were note Lords. Dany is not quite at the level of Cersei but I think the mood is she certainly could be, it creates uncertainty. The white character who fought for freedom in Essos is only able to play the oppressor in Westeros if she wants the Iron throne, and she's only ever wanted the iron throne in the first place because it's her birth right, all this about helping people live a better life is relatively new in her story line (regarding the Iron throne). I believe she will die before its over in a display of selflessness - It will be for the people, an it won't be for the throne. 

Majority on the show when captured have been held as hostages. Like Jamie etc, . Hell, she could have tried to bargain the Tarlys for Yara, my hostage for your hostage - that's how war has worked for them, always. Even back in season one Cersei was against Neds beheading. That sort of execution is just not useful to make friends. It's becoming pretty evident in show land Westerosi people do not want the Targaryans back, people would have preferred not to have a renewed war, and word spreading on burning house Tarly people will bend the knee for her, because they have been forced to not out of choice.

And the King/Queen who are chosen is an important distinction for me. We have kings who are 'rightful heirs', we have those who are not but the ones who are chosen are the ones who are worthy - currently this space is only occupied by Jon. The fact, for me Jon is a 'Rightful heir' is irrelevant,  like a bit of a inside joke, because it doesn't matter. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Well argued as always.

14 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

Read the books again. Read the World of Ice and Fire.

I have read the books multiple times. World of Ice and Fire only once though. But unlike you, it seems I actually made some progress towards comprehending what I read. Yes, this argument is getting childish, but it's hard to do better when you insist on just saying "you're wrong" to everything without even trying a counter-argument.

14 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

I could give you a summary

No that's okay, I could make a Word document and copy-paste "Dany is the greatest!!211111!" a few hundred times myself if I felt like it.

14 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

but unfortunately I do not have the free time to make 4400 posts

For your information, about 4300 of those were made in the book forum over the years. Unfortunately, there's not much new to discuss in the book world these days and avoiding the show proved impossible in practice. Not that I see why you would bring up post count*, it never has and never will have the slightest weight on the value of a given argument.

15 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

Thats why Jon Snow died. 

Yep, but that doesn't make it the slightest bit less worthwhile to root for him. He came back and he's wiser for it, which is why he realizes that he cannot (and should not) bend the knee to Dany.

*actually, I know exactly why: you're trying some sort of absurd primary-school level "eww look at the loser nerd who posts a lot" thing, but honestly anyone who posts here is by definition a self-confessed nerd, so it won't work

Link to comment
Share on other sites

See, that's the problem. She speaks about breaking the wheel, ending the opression, but she never actually says what she's gonna come up with instead. She already tried to to that in  cities of the south, didn't work out that well. She tries to destroy the existing system without having  a viable alternative. I hopy Tyrion and Jon will make her understand that at some point, or she's gonna be a really shitty Queen who did far more harm then good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...