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Daenerys will Break the Wheel


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20 minutes ago, boojam said:

The only real way to break the wheel is to get rid of Feudalism.

Institute a parliamentary democracy .

But that's in another , more interesting universe.

Or absolutism. Absolutist monarchies in Europe broke the feudal system just as effectively and paved way to modern societies (well, at least in some countries). Guess where Dany is headed.

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Gelious said:

See, that's the problem. She speaks about breaking the wheel, ending the opression, but she never actually says what she's gonna come up with instead. She already tried to to that in  cities of the south, didn't work out that well. She tries to destroy the existing system without having  a viable alternative. I hopy Tyrion and Jon will make her understand that at some point, or she's gonna be a really shitty Queen who did far more harm then good.

Well, that's why she asks for Tyrions and Jons counsel prior to the start of the battle. Unlike Aerys, who chose to surround himself with yes men, she's willing to listen to the likes of Varys, even if she does stomp around and throw tantrums a bit. 

Tyrions advice has lost them three allies so far, and she did listen to Jon, she didn't melt castles or attack civilian population. Like I said before, if she were in the Mad Queen mode, she'd be sitting in KL over a pile of ashes.

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3 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Well argued as always.

I have read the books multiple times. World of Ice and Fire only once though. But unlike you, it seems I actually made some progress towards comprehending what I read. Yes, this argument is getting childish, but it's hard to do better when you insist on just saying "you're wrong" to everything without even trying a counter-argument.

No that's okay, I could make a Word document and copy-paste "Dany is the greatest!!211111!" a few hundred times myself if I felt like it.

For your information, about 4300 of those were made in the book forum over the years. Unfortunately, there's not much new to discuss in the book world these days and avoiding the show proved impossible in practice. Not that I see why you would bring up post count*, it never has and never will have the slightest weight on the value of a given argument.

Yep, but that doesn't make it the slightest bit less worthwhile to root for him. He came back and he's wiser for it, which is why he realizes that he cannot (and should not) bend the knee to Dany.

*actually, I know exactly why: you're trying some sort of absurd primary-school level "eww look at the loser nerd who posts a lot" thing, but honestly anyone who posts here is by definition a self-confessed nerd, so it won't work

My friend, you have dedicated your forum presence towards hating a fictional character. Its probably not wise for you to go around labeling others.

In any case, the point is Jon Snow is an honorable fool. He died once. And almost died again along with his entire army by charging foolishly at a bait. People like him die in the world of Ice and Fire, and get their friends and family killed in the process. He is not the standard by which one should judge "good" character in that world. His is not a recipe for success.

But yeah, I root for him as well, for what he is. And Daenerys, and Tyrion, and Jaime,  and the Hound, and Brienne, and the Stark sisters - despite the good, the bad and the ugly things all of them have done. You know why? Because I do not have double standards. It makes the story a lot more enjoyable.

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3 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

My friend, you have dedicated your forum presence towards hating a fictional character. Its probably not wise for you to go around labeling others.

You know nothing about what I have dedicated my forum presence towards, the vast majority of my posts happened before you even joined the board. Let me also point out that you're the one who keeps bringing up post counts and time spent here - who are you to judge what I spend my free time on?

Where am I labeling anyone, by the way?

 

5 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

In any case, the point is Jon Snow is an honorable fool.

You're not altogether wrong. But he's not nearly as foolish as he used to be, bloody stupid decision in the Battle of the Bastards aside. I'd like to think he learned from that, too, but I suppose we'll see.

 

7 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

He is not the standard by which one should judge "good" character in that world. His is not a recipe for success.

Well those are two different points. "Good" and "Successful" are very often two different things (unfortunately, but it's one of the great things about this story). Jon is certainly a standard to judge "good" by, and I'll take his position over just about anyone else still alive's, except perhaps Davos from time to time. Whether he will triumph in the end obviously remains to be seen, but that still has no bearing on whether he was good. If your point is that "picking a winner" is what supporting a character is all about, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I also rooted for Ned Stark back in AGOT even though I strongly suspected he would not have a happy ending.

4 minutes ago, daemonTheBlack said:

Because I do not have double standards.

Neither do I, despite your frequent accusations. I just hold Dany to her own (ridiculously high) standards, and point it out when she falls short (which is most of the time).

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3 hours ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

Well, that's why she asks for Tyrions and Jons counsel prior to the start of the battle. Unlike Aerys, who chose to surround himself with yes men, she's willing to listen to the likes of Varys, even if she does stomp around and throw tantrums a bit. 

Tyrions advice has lost them three allies so far, and she did listen to Jon, she didn't melt castles or attack civilian population. Like I said before, if she were in the Mad Queen mode, she'd be sitting in KL over a pile of ashes.

Seems at the moment KL has zero allies while Dany still has two armies. 

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11 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Did she break the wheel or did she steal an army of slaves without paying for it as part of some revenge fantasy, burn the khals, and burn the masters of meereen?  I wasn't convinced Meereen had a happy ending yet despite her breaking the seige with her dragons.  Let's hope Daario is a better governor and ruler than Daenerys and Tyrion were.  What do you think her better world looks like?  Communism where she alone dictates who gets what?  A police state where everyone must fall in line with her morals or perish?  A democracy where heaven forbid people vote her out of power or make laws preventing her use of dragons?

I was wondering about this. 'Breaking the wheel' sounds very idealistic and vague. But then replace it with what?

Jon Snow knows something. More of the same..

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11 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Did she break the wheel or did she steal an army of slaves without paying for it as part of some revenge fantasy, burn the khals, and burn the masters of meereen?  I wasn't convinced Meereen had a happy ending yet despite her breaking the seige with her dragons.  Let's hope Daario is a better governor and ruler than Daenerys and Tyrion were.  What do you think her better world looks like?  Communism where she alone dictates who gets what?  A police state where everyone must fall in line with her morals or perish?  A democracy where heaven forbid people vote her out of power or make laws preventing her use of dragons?

I was wondering about this. 'Breaking the wheel' sounds very idealistic and vague. But then replace it with what?

Jon Snow knows something. More of the same..

oops double post! Sorry

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10 hours ago, Risto said:

The Wheel is breaking on its own

Houses Baratheon, Tyrell, Martell - GONE

Houses Tully, Arryn - ALMOST GONE

House Greyjoy - Theon can't procreate and we can suppose Euron is not going to last very long

House Lannister - Cersei won't be having more children (we have that prophecy), Jaime won't marry someone else and continue the line, which means we only have Tyrion

House Stark - Brandon can't have kids, so male line is extinguished. That leaves Sansa and Arya to continue the line.

House Targaryen - Dany arguably can't have children so that leaves us with Jon.

So, there it is. The spokes on that wheel are rather thin these days. The wheel is almost broken and Dany didn't do anything yet.

Excellent points. The problem with 'Breaking the wheel' is the fact that she says that all those houses are just spokes on a wheel, one on top of another. 

I'm not sure if she means all those house should be stripped of their power or just be disbanded completely.

But one thing seems certain. In her view the Targaryen house, who is far from innocent from crimes as a collective entity, is the one who must be on top of all and the only one excempt from this cycle, by default because of daddy. Her entire case rests on the entitlement of the Targaryen house on the throne. 

Maybe this is just a side effect of the show oversimplifying her views. 

I'm sure she means to change things up for the better. But this certainly doesn't seem to involve sharing or shifting anything in terms of the absolute power she feels the Targ name carries. She put herself as above and more self righteous than any of the major houses before she even put a foot on Westerosi soil.

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Well she did put House Targaryen on the list of the houses that were spokes on the wheel when she gave her speech to Tyrion when they first met.  I am not really sure what her plan entails and we likely won't know until she actually takes the Iron throne.

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11 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Well she did put House Targaryen on the list of the houses that were spokes on the wheel when she gave her speech to Tyrion when they first met.  I am not really sure what her plan entails and we likely won't know until she actually takes the Iron throne.

You're right. But we have to yet see how this applies in the practicality of things.

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1 hour ago, boojam said:

Seems at the moment KL has zero allies while Dany still has two armies. 

They still have Euron with his magical teleporting fleet and immunity to any injury. Though he might be a bit less happy about the alliance, given how she's pregnant with Jaimes baby. Though I wouldn't put it past Cersei to play both Jaime and Euron.

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9 hours ago, snow is the man said:

Well in the show slavers bay is only three cities from what vary's says when they talk about astapor and yunkai falling. But there is an incredible amount of people in esso's and she didn't free close to all of them just the ones in slavers bay. It is still a big deal but not all of essos

In show there is at least Lys, which is a huge slavetrading city.
Pentos forbids slavery, but in reality it is not - Dany begins her journey from Pentos.
Volantis is mentioned in the show, which is thriving from slavery city.

Not sure if Qohor, Myr and Tyrosh were mentioned in the show.

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1 hour ago, Eddard Scissorhands said:

I was wondering about this. 'Breaking the wheel' sounds very idealistic and vague. But then replace it with what?

Jon Snow knows something. More of the same..

An autocracy.  Which may be better or worse than what has gone before.

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12 minutes ago, Gala said:

In show there is at least Lys, which is a huge slavetrading city.
Pentos forbids slavery, but in reality it is not - Dany begins her journey from Pentos.
Volantis is mentioned in the show, which is thriving from slavery city.

Not sure if Qohor, Myr and Tyrosh were mentioned in the show.

your right. I completly forgot about that and one of the slavers that tyrion meets with is from another city besides yunkai and astapor

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Daenerys is the hero in the story.  She has successfully ended a slave trade that has victimized millions over the course of thousands of years.  She is an agent of change.  Millions of people now have freedom because of Daenerys.  Millions more over the years will be saved because she destroyed the Masters and their sadistic system of exploiting the weak.  I am sure breaking the wheel follows the same ideas. 

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Cool user name selfie.

Breaking the wheel is empowerment for the poor, the weak, and women.  It's a theme of Dany's story arc.  She has the vision and the greatness to make it happen.

The great houses (Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, Tully, Greyjoy, Martell, Arron, Tyrell) that play the game.  Maybe it means getting rid of them to make the land truly one land.   Each lord would answer directly to her, the rightful monarch, instead of an intermediary like the great families.  It's not perfect but the country united will be stronger.  

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36 minutes ago, Heavy D said:

Cool user name selfie.

Breaking the wheel is empowerment for the poor, the weak, and women.  It's a theme of Dany's story arc.  She has the vision and the greatness to make it happen.

The great houses (Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, Tully, Greyjoy, Martell, Arron, Tyrell) that play the game.  Maybe it means getting rid of them to make the land truly one land.   Each lord would answer directly to her, the rightful monarch, instead of an intermediary like the great families.  It's not perfect but the country united will be stronger.  

Well, the idea is wonderful, but she is the wheel herself...along with the other great houses. The only true breaking of the wheel I see is developing another form of state (not monarchy) and global policy so it would be possible to poor, weak and women to succeed and birthright does not mean anything. To do that she should exclude the possibility to be a monarch herself and stop calling herself the rightful heir and mother of so many titles.
How will she rule that huge country without help - somebody should supervise the lands. Besides, Dorne and the North differ from other parts of the kingdom in traditions and religion. That is absurd. Even in modern world big countries and small ones as well are divided into districts (states, regions etc depending on the country) and those districts have rulers (governors etc). What you are suggesting is not even realistic.

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58 minutes ago, Heavy D said:

Cool user name selfie.

Breaking the wheel is empowerment for the poor, the weak, and women.  It's a theme of Dany's story arc.  She has the vision and the greatness to make it happen.

The great houses (Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, Tully, Greyjoy, Martell, Arron, Tyrell) that play the game.  Maybe it means getting rid of them to make the land truly one land.   Each lord would answer directly to her, the rightful monarch, instead of an intermediary like the great families.  It's not perfect but the country united will be stronger.  

It is the theme indeed.

She'll probably turn out to be a righteous ruler, but that's an awful lot of power to place in one person's hands. 

She may have the best of intentions but I don't see why that is objectively more fair or an improvement in any way. At the end of the day such power can only be maintained by force. 

As a system, more of the same with perhaps even bigger risks in my opinion.

It may or may not be overall better for the realm in her particular case, but not all of westeros consists of people who are or consider themselves enslaved, nor people who by rule respect the most intimidating leader like her current followers. Different people with different traditions respond in different ways. The majority of Westeros will not choose her because she says she's better.

She will need to prove herself, if she wants people to support her by choice.

One possible way is if she is a decisive factor in defeating the WW and thus saving all of the realm.

 

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