Jump to content

Daenerys will Break the Wheel


Only 89 selfies today

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Nocturne said:

Some of these response in this thread..i know you lot hate Dany, but common hate her cause she is boring, but do no go off the walls with calling her a hypocrite and other nonsense like that.

The story (aside from the magical things) is set in a feudal world, were a few rich families control the rest by FEAR. These people won't bend to anyone, let alone a child of a monarch that half of them overthrew just cause she asked nicely. So let's actually examine what she did so far:

- She freed the Unsullied, does it really matter how she freed them? Are you lot with your head so far up your asses that you are complaining that she roasted alive the guys that were cutting the dicks of children, and numerous other horrors?

The Unsullied are not following her because she threatened them, they follow her because she gave them free will.

In Westeros, while the common soldier may not have much freedom to go about doing whatever he wants like a lord, he does have the basics freedoms like taking a shit whenever he wants for example. These are soldiers that were feed the following narrative: fight against this foreign invader, or die by my hands, because we wont suffer traitors..not much of a choice now is it?

Now you can say that Dany is basically giving them the same choice, but if u remember what Lannister do with their captives, you will understand that its a better choice for them to switch sides.

The only thing that Dany is guilty is not having a good plan to maintain peace once she burns all her enemies, but that's why she has good advisors around her, that can guide her in the right direction.

Seriously people, make the distinction.

 

Her choices and the arguments on this thread and many others, bring up an interesting point. Do bad actions, done for the right reasons, make them good actions? It's something as humans we have struggled to answer (Stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving family, type questions). 
To me, her actions on the show are a representation of this. (Obviously not going to talk about the book version of her because everyone is just bringing up the show).

I also just don't agree with her burning alive POW. That's something you don't do. That's my biggest gripe with her right now. And I get that other characters have done things equally/or worse than she has. But then you're not breaking the wheel are you?

But in short, I view her character as wanting to "break the wheel" but because of the system, she is more of the same and has to continue that wheel. Maybe after she rules she can break it, I don't know. But I don't see it yet.

Just how I feel about it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/15/2017 at 5:02 AM, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Did she break the wheel or did she steal an army of slaves without paying for it as part of some revenge fantasy, burn the khals, and burn the masters of meereen?  I wasn't convinced Meereen had a happy ending yet despite her breaking the seige with her dragons.  Let's hope Daario is a better governor and ruler than Daenerys and Tyrion were.  What do you think her better world looks like?  Communism where she alone dictates who gets what?  A police state where everyone must fall in line with her morals or perish?  A democracy where heaven forbid people vote her out of power or make laws preventing her use of dragons?

Brilliant post. I keep thinking she is actually speaking of a literal wheel, maybe form a wheel cart or a wheel barrow. Who knows

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/15/2017 at 8:44 AM, TyrionFan82 said:

Will she able to? That's up for debate but first she has to win the war. I think with support from Jon and other houses she'll have no problems.

That is how tyrants justify themselves. Firstly we win the war, later we make changes. But war never ends.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/15/2017 at 9:22 AM, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

Plus, whilst she didn't commit any men to the Wall, she did allow Jon to mine dragon glass and sent her adviser in to treat with Cersei to convince her to have an armistice. That's not bad for someone who just scored a major win and could simply plough on with invasion. Hell, if she were MadQueen 2.0, Cersei would be cinders by now.

So, instead of doing a surgical strike she prolongs the war causing more death and devastation. Tat is so humanitarian I could weep tears of joy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/15/2017 at 10:24 AM, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

 What was she supposed to do with them, send them back to Cersei or put them in chains?

That is exactly what you do with war prisoners in Medieval Warfare, you imprison them and ransom or trade them at the end of the confrontation. That has absolutely nothing to do with slavery.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, btfu806 said:

Her choices and the arguments on this thread and many others, bring up an interesting point. Do bad actions, done for the right reasons, make them good actions? It's something as humans we have struggled to answer (Stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving family, type questions). 
To me, her actions on the show are a representation of this. (Obviously not going to talk about the book version of her because everyone is just bringing up the show).

I also just don't agree with her burning alive POW. That's something you don't do. That's my biggest gripe with her right now. And I get that other characters have done things equally/or worse than she has. But then you're not breaking the wheel are you?

But in short, I view her character as wanting to "break the wheel" but because of the system, she is more of the same and has to continue that wheel. Maybe after she rules she can break it, I don't know. But I don't see it yet.

Just how I feel about it. 

100% agree!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Armand Gargalen said:

So, instead of doing a surgical strike she prolongs the war causing more death and devastation. Tat is so humanitarian I could weep tears of joy

I would imagine it's not that easy to do a surgical strike without hitting most of the Red Keep. She was advised not to target any cities or castles by at least two advisers for the fear of hitting civilian population. War is hardly humanitarian, either she melts down castles and turns the city into ashes, sieges the city and starves people or she prolongs fighting using armies, using her superior numbers. So far she has only hit the Lannister and Tarly forces, not any major ports or towns, it might not be humanitarian to you, but I dare say it prevents much of devastation you speak off. Was Harrenhal humanitarian?

Plus, taking Cersei out in a single strike would remove much of the contrived tension in the show, so she would avoid direct confrontation for as long as necessary to the plot. It doesn't make much sense, Cersei should've been toast at the start of the season, but that doesn't serve show writers purpose. It's the same reason Jaime survives a certain death by drowning, and Bronn gets a chance to knock him out of dragon fires way at the last moment. 

Keeping them prisoner and ransoming (assuming Cersei would give a shit about Tarly) would take away her resources, both in terms of food and security, not to mention the possibility of eventual dissent. Ransomed Northmen didn't wait long to rebel against Boltons. Theon and Balon didn't hesitate to rise against Starks at the first opportunity. It might not be moral to kill POW, but it's a logical choice for her. Tyrion pleaded for leniency- taking the black was a lenient option, but they threw the offer in her face, and made their choice. That's a damn sight more than most of their opponents got- was Olenna and Highgarden men ransomed and kept prisoner?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, boojam said:

One hundred per cent correct. The argument for two seasons was that the crown could not move against the Faith Militant because the masses would go Able Sugar if such was done. Cersei did more than that and the anger of the masses just disappeared! Destruction of The Sept should have brought non Faith Militant , yet followers of the Faith of the Seven , down on KL like a whirl wind. All the crown's vassals would have rioted , even the Tarlys. More imagination in the telling of that story would have made a much more interesting narrative.

 

Exactly- most of Great houses would rebel, Henry the VIII went against Catholicism and met strong opposition even within his own country, let alone elsewhere, and that's considering that Protestantism was spreading across Europe at the same time.

Cersei didn't just go for FM, she has blown up a major religious landmark and as far as I can see has got rid of the Faith, it's completely irrational that she's not been assassinated yet, let alone so cheered on. Thi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

1.I would imagine it's not that easy to do a surgical strike without hitting most of the Red Keep. She was advised not to target any cities or castles by at least two advisers for the fear of hitting civilian population. War is hardly humanitarian, either she melts down castles and turns the city into ashes, sieges the city and starves people or she prolongs fighting using armies, using her superior numbers. So far she has only hit the Lannister and Tarly forces, not any major ports or towns, it might not be humanitarian to you, but I dare say it prevents much of devastation you speak off. Was Harrenhal humanitarian?

2.Plus, taking Cersei out in a single strike would remove much of the contrived tension in the show, so she would avoid direct confrontation for as long as necessary to the plot. It doesn't make much sense, Cersei should've been toast at the start of the season, but that doesn't serve show writers purpose. It's the same reason Jaime survives a certain death by drowning, and Bronn gets a chance to knock him out of dragon fires way at the last moment. 

Keeping them prisoner and ransoming (assuming Cersei would give a shit about Tarly) would take away her resources, both in terms of food and security, not to mention the possibility of eventual dissent. Ransomed Northmen didn't wait long to rebel against Boltons. Theon and Balon didn't hesitate to rise against Starks at the first opportunity. It might not be moral to kill POW, but it's a logical choice for her. Tyrion pleaded for leniency- taking the black was a lenient option, but they threw the offer in her face, and made their choice. That's a damn sight more than most of their opponents got- was Olenna and Highgarden men ransomed and kept prisoner?

1. You do not even need to use the dragons for a surgical strike. Smuggle 40 Unsullied via the way Tyrion used to meet Jaime and it is done. And just in case they fail, have your dragons fly over KL (at a safe distance) while announcing that you have come to depose the queen who blew the High Sept of Baelor up and wait for a mob to storm the Red Keep. Bloody? Yes. Bloodier than FoF2? I doubt it.

2. You are spot on here. Actually, that is the only reason Cersei is still alive. That does not make for good storytelling in my book, though.

3. Cersei does not need to pay for the ransom. I am quite sure House Tarly can afford it. And I doubt Tarly and his son are such a resource drain. If Sam were with them, that might become an issue, though :p. Future rebellions may be an issue, but in general people are more forgiving if you release them than their relatives are if you burn them. People tend to hold grudges, you know?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, Armand Gargalen said:

1. You do not even need to use the dragons for a surgical strike. Smuggle 40 Unsullied via the way Tyrion used to meet Jaime and it is done. And just in case they fail, have your dragons fly over KL (at a safe distance) while announcing that you have come to depose the queen who blew the High Sept of Baelor up and wait for a mob to storm the Red Keep. Bloody? Yes. Bloodier than FoF2? I doubt it.

2. You are spot on here. Actually, that is the only reason Cersei is still alive. That does not make for good storytelling in my book, though.

3. Cersei does not need to pay for the ransom. I am quite sure House Tarly can afford it. And I doubt Tarly and his son are such a resource drain. If Sam were with them, that might become an issue, though :p. Future rebellions may be an issue, but in general people are more forgiving if you release them than their relatives are if you burn them. People tend to hold grudges, you know?

The Unsullied are trapped in Casterly Rock. And yes, this too is an example of shitty writing and potholes the size of Sam's stomach. Nobody seems to care about the sept of Baelor or wonder about all those lovely sparrows who gave free soup and shoes. 

Tarlys might not have been the main drain in the resources, but if there was no threat of Drogon, many more people would prefer to be taken prisoner, and it might become an issue, since the food supplies are scarce. Though, tbh, a lot of it was Dany flexing muscle, in the same way Jaime presented Olenna's poison like some act of charity. I was surprised the old girl didn't have any poison on herself at any rate, for her it's an oversight. 

True, relatives can get a bit upset over things like that, but surviving Tarlys are Talla, Melissa and Sam. The women are hardly going to start any trouble and Sam is a black brother, who's like the least likely candidate to start waving a sword around for revenge. That sounds cynical, even to someone who has read every book and watched every episode, but I don't think anyone is going to question that in universe. Obviously Sam is going to be angry, and it would be awkward if Jonerys does happen- but then, this isn't the kind of a story where we end up with a big happy Stargaryen reign ending where Sam jiggles Jonerys' babies on the knee. 

Then again, knowing showrunners logic, it could be swept under the carpet like so many contradictory events and actions of the show- if Dorne doesn't give a toss about a bastard girlfriend of a second Martell son murdering the rightful Martell  ruler and his heir in cold blood and installing herself as their new leader and Iron Islands don't give a toss about the rightful ruler being murdered by his brother, Sam could magically get over the trauma at a drop of a hat. I mean, look at how Tarly gave shit to Tyrion for killing Tywin. Like, mate, you are fighting with the Euron, he just killed his brother and admitted it to the court, but what would we do without his magic fleet? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, btfu806 said:

Her choices and the arguments on this thread and many others, bring up an interesting point. Do bad actions, done for the right reasons, make them good actions? It's something as humans we have struggled to answer (Stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving family, type questions). 
To me, her actions on the show are a representation of this. (Obviously not going to talk about the book version of her because everyone is just bringing up the show).

I also just don't agree with her burning alive POW. That's something you don't do. That's my biggest gripe with her right now. And I get that other characters have done things equally/or worse than she has. But then you're not breaking the wheel are you?

But in short, I view her character as wanting to "break the wheel" but because of the system, she is more of the same and has to continue that wheel. Maybe after she rules she can break it, I don't know. But I don't see it yet.

Just how I feel about it. 

I feel differently than you do.  Dany gave the Tarlys every opportunity to prove to her that they will never threaten her again.  To allow the Tarlys to go means they will raise another army to fight her again.  Executing them was the right thing to do.  It was the smart thing to do, to get rid of an enemy once and for all.  Letting the Tarlys go would have a terrible mistake and bad war tactics.  Tyrion's sentiments are inconsistent with his past behavior.  Tyrion's advice has been terrible all season long.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

I feel differently than you do.  Dany gave the Tarlys every opportunity to prove to her that they will never threaten her again.  To allow the Tarlys to go means they will raise another army to fight her again.  Executing them was the right thing to do.  It was the smart thing to do, to get rid of an enemy once and for all.  Letting the Tarlys go would have a terrible mistake and bad war tactics.  Tyrion's sentiments are inconsistent with his past behavior.  Tyrion's advice has been terrible all season long.

I agree with the reasoning behind it.  If they bend the knee, help them up etc. 

Burning them alive though?  That's f/cked up. It's a horrible and painful way to die, and showDany seems to be a fan. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

I agree with the reasoning behind it.  If they bend the knee, help them up etc. 

Burning them alive though?  That's f/cked up. It's a horrible and painful way to die, and showDany seems to be a fan. 

Sentencing people to death is one thing; done right beheading is pretty quick and painless.

Death by burning is...considered one of the worst ways to go.

I don't think her choice won her any friends. Among her opponents and her allies, if Varys and Tyrion's talk has anything to do with it.

I do hope she'll listen to them when it comes to that stuff soon. She's not been very keen on it lately.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

I agree with the reasoning behind it.  If they bend the knee, help them up etc. 

Burning them alive though?  That's f/cked up. It's a horrible and painful way to die, and showDany seems to be a fan. 

The Tarlys made their own.  Dany could not allow them to raise a new army.  The Tarlys had to die, the Tarlys deserved to die.  Dany, as the victor, had every right to execute them in any manner that she chooses.  Death is death.  That was a quick death.  A fitting way to execute an enemy who refuses to concede. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Sentencing people to death is one thing; done right beheading is pretty quick and painless.

Death by burning is...considered one of the worst ways to go.

I don't think her choice won her any friends. Among her opponents and her allies, if Varys and Tyrion's talk has anything to do with it.

I do hope she'll listen to them when it comes to that stuff soon. She's not been very keen on it lately.

Tyrion is a dumbass whose advice costed Dany her valuable allies, Olenna, Yara, and Elaria.  Dany should stop listening to Tyrion. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Tyrion is a dumbass whose advice costed Dany her valuable allies, Olenna, Yara, and Elaria.  Dany should stop listening to Tyrion. 

Tyrion seems to be dumbed down in order for plot drama.

Maybe he doesn't give the best battle plans but he does know diplomacy. And Varys? Why shouldn't she listen to him?

Either way, a Queen should listen to her advisors even if she doesn't agree. Dany tends to shut them down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems to me that dragonfire on the show is a pretty quick way to die. The Lannister soldiers and the Tarlys were turned into ashes in the matter of ten seconds. Those who were caught full on by Drogon's fire were out in seconds, it doesn't look like the slow burning at a stake Shireen or Mance got. I don't know if that's the same in the books too or it's a deliberate change or just an "it looks cooler this way" decision, but the Tarlys barely suffered. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

It seems to me that dragonfire on the show is a pretty quick way to die. The Lannister soldiers and the Tarlys were turned into ashes in the matter of ten seconds. Those who were caught full on by Drogon's fire were out in seconds, it doesn't look like the slow burning at a stake Shireen or Mance got. I don't know if that's the same in the books too or it's a deliberate change or just an "it looks cooler this way" decision, but the Tarlys barely suffered. 

Hasn't there been mention that dragonfire is much hotter than your standard vanilla fire?  To the point where it was a key ingredient in producing Valyrian Steel?  I could be wrong, but that seems stuck in my mind somehow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...