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Daenerys will Break the Wheel


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4 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Hasn't there been mention that dragonfire is much hotter than your standard vanilla fire?  To the point where it was a key ingredient in producing Valyrian Steel?  I could be wrong, but that seems stuck in my mind somehow.

I don't know, I don't remember. There could have been. 

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1 hour ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

The Unsullied are trapped in Casterly Rock.

I meant to use them in KL INSTEAD OF sending them to Casterly Rock.

Apart from that, you have a point about feeding the soldiers. Actually, in medieval warfare regular foot soldiers captured in battle were put to the sword in the spot, only captains, highborns and the sort were captured. What would have be the humanitarian thing for Dany to do? Hard to say, but if she had not burnt the wagons containing food supplies keeping them prisoners might have been easier. She could also had sent them back home. I do not expect any of those guys, who have been shown in universe (Ed Sheridan and mates) to be just normal people who want to go home, to be in the mood to take arms against dragons ever again; they could spread the word of Dany´s might and mercy to the smallfolk and woe to the Lannister recruiter who comes into their villages.

I just find her giving that empty speech about the wheel and them telling them to accept her crap just because she has Targaryen blood and dragons or die horribly highly hypocritical.

 

Finally, regarding Sam, I could not stop thinking about it during the scene when Jon pets Drogon. My mind was like: "Are you aware that thing you are petting just roasted hundreds of people, including your best mate´s dad (who was allegedly a moron and a horrible father) and brother (who was none of the sort, albeit a little thick)?" It was super convenient how the Maesters forgot to tell Sam about all of this and he left Oldtown before they decided to finally do it, because that way he might never find out and a beautiful friendship will not be spoiled but such a silly detail. 

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53 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Hasn't there been mention that dragonfire is much hotter than your standard vanilla fire?  To the point where it was a key ingredient in producing Valyrian Steel?  I could be wrong, but that seems stuck in my mind somehow.

The connection to the manufacturing of valyrian steel hasn't been revealed anywhere that I'm aware of. 

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11 minutes ago, Armand Gargalen said:

I meant to use them in KL INSTEAD OF sending them to Casterly Rock.

Apart from that, you have a point about feeding the soldiers. Actually, in medieval warfare regular foot soldiers captured in battle were put to the sword in the spot, only captains, highborns and the sort were captured. What would have be the humanitarian thing for Dany to do? Hard to say, but if she had not burnt the wagons containing food supplies keeping them prisoners might have been easier. She could also had sent them back home. I do not expect any of those guys, who have been shown in universe (Ed Sheridan and mates) to be just normal people who want to go home, to be in the mood to take arms against dragons ever again; they could spread the word of Dany´s might and mercy to the smallfolk and woe to the Lannister recruiter who comes into their villages.

I just find her giving that empty speech about the wheel and them telling them to accept her crap just because she has Targaryen blood and dragons or die horribly highly hypocritical.

 

Finally, regarding Sam, I could not stop thinking about it during the scene when Jon pets Drogon. My mind was like: "Are you aware that thing you are petting just roasted hundreds of people, including your best mate´s dad (who was allegedly a moron and a horrible father) and brother (who was none of the sort, albeit a little thick)?" It was super convenient how the Maesters forgot to tell Sam about all of this and he left Oldtown before they decided to finally do it, because that way he might never find out and a beautiful friendship will not be spoiled but such a silly detail. 

Oh, I definitely agree that not using them in KL the same way they've been used in Meeren was stupid- I'd chalk it up to bad writing and a massive oversight on Daenerys' and Tyrions plans. Maybe they needed someone with Davos' knowledge of routes into the city, and Davos didn't volunteer. Plus, it's one thing to smuggle two people into the city, which didn't escape Cersei's eye either, and another to get enough Unsullied to get anywhere near Cersei. Plus, this being Westeros, the Unsullied may be less inconspicuous than in Meeren, because Meeren clearly has more racial diversity, and someone like Grey Worm would attract far less attention there  than in KL. the 

I thought it was only vagons of gold that she burned? From what I remember, it was gold they were carrying- Jaime got Bronn a bag directly from the nearest carriage, the grain was transported to KL, and the last of it they had to take from farmers. I agree that it was another oversight- but then, we don't know how many she burned in total or how many there were in the first place- I doubt showrunners bothered with logistics. It could be that she burned like 1/5 of the whole train and the rest was in KL. Still leaves more for her armygf and less for Cersei.

I thought that was the deal she was offering- to lay down arms against her? Certainly, taking the black would've been a lot more humanitarian and made more sense, but those that refused even after the second time Drogon growled were obviously not interested in laying the arms down and skulking off somewhere, as Tarly said, they've not recognised her authority, and had no interest in giving in either way. 

Oh, I'm sure Sam would find out at some point. But given how lightly the show treats such things family bonds for no reason whatsoever, I don't expect him to stay angry at Daenerys beyond some angry words at best, let alone Jon, who never met either of Randyll or Dickon. The only thing Jon knows about Randyll is that he's the guy who sent his friend to the wall under the threat of having him killed. He might be a bit more upset about Dickon, especially given the parralel with his own brother, but nothing would get in the way of hot Jonerys action if the show demands it. 

To me, her "breaking the wheel" speech refers to giving a greater autonomy and representation to the smallfolk once she is in a position to do so, not in the middle of a war. Yes, that is how a lot of tyrants justify themselves, they keep saying that things will get better at some distant point which never comes. But not executing enemy soldiers that just days before slaughtered your allies, even after she offered them a pardon for surrender or a trip to Nights Watch is not giving more autonomy and representation to the smallfolk. Enemy combatants are nor smallfolk. Like you've mentioned before, under medieval law the common grunts were put to sword immediately. The very fact that she gave them any choice at all makes her a lot more fair than some of the commanders we've witnessed so far to be. 

What would be funny is if Jon has petitioned Dany to send Tarly to NW, saying that he fought alongside his son, Sam. Randyll would've probably died of apoplexy on the spot, saving the trouble of executing him, and Dickon would probably be less compelled to die with him.

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4 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

The connection to the manufacturing of valyrian steel hasn't been revealed anywhere that I'm aware of. 

Considering there's a few smiths who know how to do Valyrian Steel still around, none of whom presumably have dragons in their back yard, it seems unlikely. Though to be fair, none of them are able to create Valyrian Steel blades, just reforge existing ones - which suggests it's a matter of ingredients, not manufacturing.

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I still don't believe that being burnt alive by dragon fire would be a pleasant way to go. Didn't it show men running around while burning during the (very one-sided) battle in Episode 4? 

IDK, give me a good, clean death any day.

 

I do have to agree that to 'break the wheel' Dany would need to let go of her sense of entitlement to the Iron Throne. She is not currently doing much to win the support of the people or those around her. Not listening to her advisors, for one.

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Dany is going to break the wheel and make her own wheel, and everyone would be ok with it cause that what rulers do.

I never understood what she meant by that. She says that one family is ruling then another gets on top and causes destruction for the people on the bottom. How is she going to change that? This would mean that if she rules no other liege family would be able to be on top and the people on the bottom would not have to suffer. 

That would mean if a liege goes to war with her, then she will stop it by destroying them, but in the same time she will also kill many of the common soldiers that is following their liege along with their lands.

Isn't that what every ruler has done? When the Iron Islands rebelled Robert put an stop to it, and when Brandon came to Aerys asking for Rheagar's head he put a stop to it. It's the same thing.

Does she think that every liege lord will not ever rebel against her?

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43 minutes ago, Crona said:

Dany is going to break the wheel and make her own wheel, and everyone would be ok with it cause that what rulers do.

I never understood what she meant by that. She says that one family is ruling then another gets on top and causes destruction for the people on the bottom. How is she going to change that? This would mean that if she rules no other liege family would be able to be on top and the people on the bottom would not have to suffer. 

That would mean if a liege goes to war with her, then she will stop it by destroying them, but in the same time she will also kill many of the common soldiers that is following their liege along with their lands.

Isn't that what every ruler has done? When the Iron Islands rebelled Robert put an stop to it, and when Brandon came to Aerys asking for Rheagar's head he put a stop to it. It's the same thing.

Does she think that every liege lord will not ever rebel against her?

The idea only works if she has absolute power and everything else is disbanded.

Which is almost like "I'm going to break the wheel of feudalism and people climbing over one another and stuff but I'm also going to have my house be on top because we're Targeryans and we don't count"

Slightly hypocritical due to the fact that she's very convinced in her house's rights but at the same time wants to destroy the system that gave her house said rights.

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2 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Slightly hypocritical due to the fact that she's very convinced in her house's rights but at the same time wants to destroy the system that gave her house said rights.

I'm not sure slightly is the word I would use, but the rest is spot-on.

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1 minute ago, Mikkel said:

I'm not sure slightly is the word I would use, but the rest is spot-on.

It's not slightly I'm just not one for getting into arguments/debates so I'm trying not to step on toes.

This forum intimidates the fuck out of me. >.>

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18 minutes ago, Pandean said:

The idea only works if she has absolute power and everything else is disbanded.

Which is almost like "I'm going to break the wheel of feudalism and people climbing over one another and stuff but I'm also going to have my house be on top because we're Targeryans and we don't count"

Slightly hypocritical due to the fact that she's very convinced in her house's rights but at the same time wants to destroy the system that gave her house said rights.

That's what it sounds like. And for the life of me, i don't know why Varys and Tyrion are ok with this.  She seems to want to be a dictator.  If she wants to change it, she will introduce elections, terms for people in power, rights, and disbanding ALL (even Targeryan) royalty, There is no hint of this at all. She has not gone to lands such as Dorne, Stormlands, and Riverlands to campaign to try and win the people over. Only thing she has done is scare the Reach into submission. 

And its not just Tyrion and Varys that I'm upset about, its the viewers, they seem to eat it up. And explain it as this is war, yes its war but she says she wants to make change. How is she changing anything if she is doing the same as everyone else? I would not have a problem if she just said I'm a conqueror, doesn't care, and just wants the throne.

12 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Also speaking 'bad' of any fan favorite character (Arya, Dany, etc. etc.) tends to make me nervous.

I know that feeling lol

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7 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Also speaking 'bad' of any fan favorite character (Arya, Dany, etc. etc.) tends to make me nervous.

Heh, fair enough. It certainly runs the risk of getting a bunch of die-hard fans jumping down your throat. I just don't care too much if I step on people's toes, I don't care in real life and I certainly don't on the internet. But kudos for managing to be diplomatic, it's a skill I never really learned.

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1 minute ago, Mikkel said:

Heh, fair enough. It certainly runs the risk of getting a bunch of die-hard fans jumping down your throat. I just don't care too much if I step on people's toes, I don't care in real life and I certainly don't on the internet. But kudos for managing to be diplomatic, it's a skill I never really learned.

If it's really important to me I don't give a shit about being diplomatic but I have better things to do than get into a fight over a tv show. And yeah, die hard fans of certain characters just......ugh.

 

3 minutes ago, Crona said:

That's what it sounds like. And for the life of me, i don't know why Varys and Tyrion are ok with this.  She seems to want to be a dictator.  If she wants to change it, she will introduce elections, terms for people in power, rights, and disbanding ALL (even Targeryan) royalty, There is no hint of this at all. She has not gone to lands such as Dorne, Stormlands, and Riverlands to campaign to try and win the people over. Only thing she has done is scare the Reach into submission. 

And its not just Tyrion and Varys that I'm upset about, its the viewers, they seem to eat it up. And explain it as this is war, yes it war but she says she wants to make change. How is she changing anything if she is doing the same as everyone else? I would not have a problem if she just said I'm a conqueror, doesn't care, and just wants the throne.

I know that feeling lol

Dany's storyline keeps going on about how compassionate and gentle hearted she is and all the like but at the same time she's proving to be insufferable.

She doesn't listen to her advisors (note: Listening and taking their advice are different things), she doesn't accept criticism, she's overly focused on the 'right' to the IT despite the fact her family lost that right during Robert's Rebellion, she can't be diplomatic for shit, and she continues on about breaking the wheel and not putting people in chains when she has people swear allegiance to her in a way that's pretty much quasi-slavery and continues on about her 'rights' that DEPEND on her being on top of the wheel.

IDK about anyone else, but I definitely wouldn't want her in charge.

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7 hours ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

I thought it was only vagons of gold that she burned? From what I remember, it was gold they were carrying- Jaime got Bronn a bag directly from the nearest carriage, the grain was transported to KL, and the last of it they had to take from farmers. I agree that it was another oversight- but then, we don't know how many she burned in total or how many there were in the first place- I doubt showrunners bothered with logistics. It could be that she burned like 1/5 of the whole train and the rest was in KL. Still leaves more for her armygf and less for Cersei.

I thought that was the deal she was offering- to lay down arms against her? Certainly, taking the black would've been a lot more humanitarian and made more sense, but those that refused even after the second time Drogon growled were obviously not interested in laying the arms down and skulking off somewhere, as Tarly said, they've not recognised her authority, and had no interest in giving in either way. 

Oh, I'm sure Sam would find out at some point. But given how lightly the show treats such things family bonds for no reason whatsoever, I don't expect him to stay angry at Daenerys beyond some angry words at best, let alone Jon, who never met either of Randyll or Dickon. The only thing Jon knows about Randyll is that he's the guy who sent his friend to the wall under the threat of having him killed. He might be a bit more upset about Dickon, especially given the parralel with his own brother, but nothing would get in the way of hot Jonerys action if the show demands it. 

To me, her "breaking the wheel" speech refers to giving a greater autonomy and representation to the smallfolk once she is in a position to do so, not in the middle of a war. Yes, that is how a lot of tyrants justify themselves, they keep saying that things will get better at some distant point which never comes. But not executing enemy soldiers that just days before slaughtered your allies, even after she offered them a pardon for surrender or a trip to Nights Watch is not giving more autonomy and representation to the smallfolk. Enemy combatants are nor smallfolk. Like you've mentioned before, under medieval law the common grunts were put to sword immediately. The very fact that she gave them any choice at all makes her a lot more fair than some of the commanders we've witnessed so far to be. 

What would be funny is if Jon has petitioned Dany to send Tarly to NW, saying that he fought alongside his son, Sam. Randyll would've probably died of apoplexy on the spot, saving the trouble of executing him, and Dickon would probably be less compelled to die with him.

Regarding the wagons, it is a mess when show viewers do not even know what was into them. I think you are confused because we first saw a scene where Jaime gives Bronn gold from one of the wagons. But when the battle starts, it is established that the gold has arrived KL, so the wagons that were burnt should be the ones with food. But, at the end of the day, who cares? They just want a pretty shot of a dragon burning wagons so they did it, regardless of the logic.

You make a fair point about her giving the enemy soldiers a choice, and how it is better than being put to the sword. The choice she gives them, though, is ironically, the same one a slave gets: serve or die. As I said before, I would buy her rhetoric much better if some measures about how to improve things for the smallfolk had been debated at some point, even if they decided to implement them after the war. I think the showrunners wrote himself into a corner here by leaving Dragonstone 100% empty, which is nonsensical (come on, the Targaryens ruled the island for 100 years before they invaded Westeros; are you realy telling me there are no farms or fishing villages? what did they eat?) and would have provided an opportunity to show Dany´s new subjects live under the new administration. Or we could have a scene where Dany tells her Dornish and Tyrell allies how they must know things will change.

The big problem is that so far she had only delivered empty words and little substance, and the showrunners want us to buy them just because she is cool and good looking.

2 hours ago, Pandean said:

IDK about anyone else, but I definitely wouldn't want her in charge.

I wouldn´t either. She is just calling for people to bend the knee only to rebel when they have a better opportunity in the future. 

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17 hours ago, Nocturne said:

Some of these response in this thread..i know you lot hate Dany, but common hate her cause she is boring, but do no go off the walls with calling her a hypocrite and other nonsense like that.

The story (aside from the magical things) is set in a feudal world, were a few rich families control the rest by FEAR. These people won't bend to anyone, let alone a child of a monarch that half of them overthrew just cause she asked nicely. So let's actually examine what she did so far:

- She freed the Unsullied, does it really matter how she freed them? Are you lot with your head so far up your asses that you are complaining that she roasted alive the guys that were cutting the dicks of children, and numerous other horrors?

The Unsullied are not following her because she threatened them, they follow her because she gave them free will.

In Westeros, while the common soldier may not have much freedom to go about doing whatever he wants like a lord, he does have the basics freedoms like taking a shit whenever he wants for example. These are soldiers that were feed the following narrative: fight against this foreign invader, or die by my hands, because we wont suffer traitors..not much of a choice now is it?

Now you can say that Dany is basically giving them the same choice, but if u remember what Lannister do with their captives, you will understand that its a better choice for them to switch sides.

The only thing that Dany is guilty is not having a good plan to maintain peace once she burns all her enemies, but that's why she has good advisors around her, that can guide her in the right direction.

Seriously people, make the distinction.

 

the thing i like the least with Daenerys is her bringing the Dothraki to Westeros.

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1 hour ago, Armand Gargalen said:

Regarding the wagons, it is a mess when show viewers do not even know what was into them. I think you are confused because we first saw a scene where Jaime gives Bronn gold from one of the wagons. But when the battle starts, it is established that the gold has arrived KL, so the wagons that were burnt should be the ones with food. But, at the end of the day, who cares? They just want a pretty shot of a dragon burning wagons so they did it, regardless of the logic.

You make a fair point about her giving the enemy soldiers a choice, and how it is better than being put to the sword. The choice she gives them, though, is ironically, the same one a slave gets: serve or die. As I said before, I would buy her rhetoric much better if some measures about how to improve things for the smallfolk had been debated at some point, even if they decided to implement them after the war. I think the showrunners wrote himself into a corner here by leaving Dragonstone 100% empty, which is nonsensical (come on, the Targaryens ruled the island for 100 years before they invaded Westeros; are you realy telling me there are no farms or fishing villages? what did they eat?) and would have provided an opportunity to show Dany´s new subjects live under the new administration. Or we could have a scene where Dany tells her Dornish and Tyrell allies how they must know things will change.

The big problem is that so far she had only delivered empty words and little substance, and the showrunners want us to buy them just because she is cool and good looking.

I wouldn´t either. She is just calling for people to bend the knee only to rebel when they have a better opportunity in the future. 

Dragonstone being empty makes sense, to me, that is. It's a fairly small island, sparsely populated and commands a handful of similarly smallish islands- the largest being Driftmark and Claw aisle. Problem is, most of its military strength- that is, most men of fighting age, were conscripted by Stannis when he attempted to take KL at the Battle of Blackwater. Given that he suffered heavy losses, and mort of his bannermen either bent the knee to Joffrey and thus remained in KL for the fear of his wrath, or were summarily executed, it's likely that the few remaining fishing villages and farms are somewhat depleted of both food and population. Plus, given that the island is mainly volcanic stone, it's unlikely to be very fertile, at least not to the point where it could feed a sizeable army. Remember how Stannis and Selyse nearly starved during the siege laid by Tyrells at Roberts Rebellion- clearly there wasn't enough grain storage to last even a small portion of Roberts Army. Given that Crownlands main trade was fishing and naval trading, it makes sense that it's now very bare and lacking. 

As to The Reach and Dorne, the showrunners had very little time to squeeze administrative matters into the series, given how they're in the middle of a war, and in any case, those two regions were actually most stable, both economically and politically (as far as the show goes) prior to the war- Elllaria clearly had support behind her coup, which means that she was popular with banner men, and Olenna only had one banner man betray her (sadly, the most seasoned military commander). Both regions were previously untouched by direct combat and thus held on to their stores of food- even now farmers have likely kept their grain, given how Tarly didn't manage to make them give it up on time. Dorne is the hottest region with good trade routes into Essos and is likely to have kept most of its food too- not to mention that it's the hottest region in the kingdom and thus is not going to be affected by the coming winter as readily as the rest. She did give Yara conditions for an alliance- sessation of piracy, to me that seems fair and sensible. You're unlikely to see much substance in the show format- it has neither the volume nor the nuance of the books. Yes, it would help if showrunners avoided the massive plot holes (Dorne succcession, Faith Militant disappearance, etc, etc), but she's not going to be the next Jahaerys the Reconciliator anytime soon- most of her scenes will be of her military planning and attacks, or ramping up the Unresolved Sexual Tension with Jon. Show logic- given between practical and sensible everyday economy planning, and romantic plot line, the latter would always win as it makes for a better show.

I do agree that the whole breaking the wheel speech is at this point in time is just empty words- but so far she hasn't had a chance to reign and assert full control of the situation, so it's unfair to expect her to deliver her vision right now. She could declare the end of serfdom for all Westerlands smallfolk, but that won't make any difference if they're taken back into Lannister control tomorrow.

As for the choice she gave being equal to what slavers give slaves, I have to disagree- a quick death or servitude is not what slaves get most of the time. They get executed only after repeated attempts to escape and are instead mutilated and starved until they're broken. Even highborn hostages are often mistreated and forced to submit to their captor- take Sansa and Theon. At least I don't think Daenerys would forcibly marry Talla to Aggo and create House Aggo of Horn Hill, which is what most invaders would do. Daenerys could put Tarly in chains and have him beaten and mutilated until he says yes, but I don't see how that would be any better.

 Isn't that the whole idea behind the origin of Faceless Men and House of White and Black? To give the release of death to the slaves who couldn't go on suffering?

The fact that she's willing to negotiate with those who won't necessarily bend the knee to her, but are looking for dialogue like Jon shows that she is willing to cooperate if necesssary- she even lends her men to the wight hunt (stupid idea if I ever heard one). 

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Dragonstone being (almost) empty of soldiers makes a certain amount of sense, given that this is a show where anything except frontline troops seemingly does not exist.

But Dragonstone is supposed to be more than the castle, and have a population outside of the garrison, and it's rather odd that they would be all gone. Stannis was besieged at Storm's End during Robert's Rebellion, by the way, not Dragonstone. But yes, Dragonstone was always considered a poor fiefdom, its main value being in the prestige it held, usually being the seat of the heir apparent to the Iron Throne: Stannis was a then-childless Robert's heir immediately after the war, until Joffrey was born (and as we know he should have remained Robert's heir because incest). Whether Robert intended to have Joffrey take over management of Dragonstone eventually we'll never know, he probably didn't give it much thought, but that's getting way off topic anyhow.

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11 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Dragonstone being (almost) empty of soldiers makes a certain amount of sense, given that this is a show were anything except frontline troops seemingly does not exist.

But Dragonstone is supposed to be more than the castle, and have a population outside of the garrison, and it's rather odd that they would be all gone. Stannis was besieged at Storm's End during Robert's Rebellion, by the way, not Dragonstone. But yes, Dragonstone was always considered a poor fiefdom, its main value being in the prestige it held, usually being the seat of the heir apparent to the Iron Throne: Stannis was a then-childless Robert's heir immediately after the war, until Joffrey was born (and as we know he should have remained Robert's heir because incest). Whether Robert intended to have Joffrey take over management of Dragonstone eventually we'll never know, he probably didn't give it much thought, but that's getting way off topic anyhow.

Ah, my bad. I got confused between Storms End and Dragonstone. I think Dragonstone was granted to Stannis permanently - that was his main gripe throughout the series, as he felt that Robert fobbed him off with Dragonstone instead of giving him Storms End. 

It might be that it does have some small holdings - we only see the pretty a view of the cliff tops, the main castle and the beaches- but these are probably few and far between, with only old men, women and kids left. 

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5 hours ago, Crona said:

That's what it sounds like. And for the life of me, i don't know why Varys and Tyrion are ok with this.  She seems to want to be a dictator.  If she wants to change it, she will introduce elections, terms for people in power, rights, and disbanding ALL (even Targeryan) royalty, There is no hint of this at all. She has not gone to lands such as Dorne, Stormlands, and Riverlands to campaign to try and win the people over. Only thing she has done is scare the Reach into submission. 

And its not just Tyrion and Varys that I'm upset about, its the viewers, they seem to eat it up. And explain it as this is war, yes its war but she says she wants to make change. How is she changing anything if she is doing the same as everyone else? I would not have a problem if she just said I'm a conqueror, doesn't care, and just wants the throne.

I know that feeling lol

I don't think elections and rights are plausible in this setting.

The best the Smallfolk can hope for is to have a ruler who keeps the peace, and suppresses private war among her lords.

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