Daenerys will Break the Wheel

[btfu806]

12 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

I feel differently than you do.  Dany gave the Tarlys every opportunity to prove to her that they will never threaten her again.  To allow the Tarlys to go means they will raise another army to fight her again.  Executing them was the right thing to do.  It was the smart thing to do, to get rid of an enemy once and for all.  Letting the Tarlys go would have a terrible mistake and bad war tactics.  Tyrion's sentiments are inconsistent with his past behavior.  Tyrion's advice has been terrible all season long.

Guess we will agree to disagree. 

[falcotron]

13 hours ago, Pandean said:

Dany is this odd mix of idealistic and ruthless and it seems to clash very hard with each other and not in the best of ways.

I think that's not only intentional, but the entire point of her character.

One of the things that led GRRM to write this series was asking himself what it meant when Tolkien wrote that Aragorn was "a good king and wise".

What does a good and wise king do with the people who fought—for a variety of reasons—for the wrong side? What's his prison policy? How does he improve the lot of the people? Should he be trying to radically reform the system, since he's got the power to do so?

And what makes someone a good and wise king? Of course you can reject being born to another good and wise king as the answer unless you believe in Divine Right, but "environment, not genetics" doesn't answer the question. Does that mean training (hi, fAegon), or learning through hard experience? Can't hard experience teach the wrong lessons as easily as the right ones?

If Dany were just a naive idealistic revolutionary who somehow found herself in power, that could be an interesting story. But it's far more interesting that she's also the daughter of a (very bad) king, and actually has signs of DIvine Right going for her, and that she's gotten more chances to learn through experience than anyone in history (how many people fail as hard as Astapor and then get another chance?), and so on.

And what's most interesting is that it's been obvious almost from the start that the key to Dany being a good ruler is figuring out how to integrate the Woman of the People and the Blood of the Dragon, but finding a way to be both is much easier said than done.

And the worst thing about learning to be a good Queen is that it's the very people you're trying to help who suffer as you learn, but it's hard to justify the alternative of leaving them to an (intentionally) bad Queen.

The books (especially ADwD) certainly haven't pulled this off perfectly, and the show's attempts to simplify the story and tack on an ending (since GRRM hasn't worked his out yet) arguably even less so, but it still comes through well enough to be one of the main reasons to read and watch the series.

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, Pandean said:

I still don't believe that being burnt alive by dragon fire would be a pleasant way to go. Didn't it show men running around while burning during the (very one-sided) battle in Episode 4? 

IDK, give me a good, clean death any day.

 

I do have to agree that to 'break the wheel' Dany would need to let go of her sense of entitlement to the Iron Throne. She is not currently doing much to win the support of the people or those around her. Not listening to her advisors, for one.

It depends.  If you get hit with a full blast of dragonfire, like Randyll and Dickon, I expect it's a quick, if unpleasant way to go.  The agony lasts for a few seconds, as it presumably did for Margaery and Loras when Cersei blew up the Sept.

If you get just a part of your body burned, on the other hand, it's going to be much more painful.  And, dragonfire, like wildfire, seems to stick to the body and spread.  So, probably, a lot of Lannister soldiers will have taken minutes to die, or even now, be dying of their burns..

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I think that's not only intentional, but the entire point of her character.

One of the things that led GRRM to write this series was asking himself what it meant when Tolkien wrote that Aragorn was "a good king and wise".

What does a good and wise king do with the people who fought—for a variety of reasons—for the wrong side? What's his prison policy? How does he improve the lot of the people? Should he be trying to radically reform the system, since he's got the power to do so?

And what makes someone a good and wise king? Of course you can reject being born to another good and wise king as the answer unless you believe in Divine Right, but "environment, not genetics" doesn't answer the question. Does that mean training (hi, fAegon), or learning through hard experience? Can't hard experience teach the wrong lessons as easily as the right ones?

If Dany were just a naive idealistic revolutionary who somehow found herself in power, that could be an interesting story. But it's far more interesting that she's also the daughter of a (very bad) king, and actually has signs of DIvine Right going for her, and that she's gotten more chances to learn through experience than anyone in history (how many people fail as hard as Astapor and then get another chance?), and so on.

And what's most interesting is that it's been obvious almost from the start that the key to Dany being a good ruler is figuring out how to integrate the Woman of the People and the Blood of the Dragon, but finding a way to be both is much easier said than done.

And the worst thing about learning to be a good Queen is that it's the very people you're trying to help who suffer as you learn, but it's hard to justify the alternative of leaving them to an (intentionally) bad Queen.

The books (especially ADwD) certainly haven't pulled this off perfectly, and the show's attempts to simplify the story and tack on an ending (since GRRM hasn't worked his out yet) arguably even less so, but it still comes through well enough to be one of the main reasons to read and watch the series.

Very well put.

I'd also say that the reverse side of Dany's genuine compassion, in the books, is a self-righteous streak of cruelty.  She takes satisfaction from inflicting unpleasant deaths on bad people.

I think the Show tends to emphasise her selfishness and cruelty more than the books do.

[Armand Gargalen]

37 minutes ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

Dragonstone being empty makes sense, to me, that is. It's a fairly small island, sparsely populated and commands a handful of similarly smallish islands- the largest being Driftmark and Claw aisle. Problem is, most of its military strength- that is, most men of fighting age, were conscripted by Stannis when he attempted to take KL at the Battle of Blackwater. Given that he suffered heavy losses, and mort of his bannermen either bent the knee to Joffrey and thus remained in KL for the fear of his wrath, or were summarily executed, it's likely that the few remaining fishing villages and farms are somewhat depleted of both food and population. Plus, given that the island is mainly volcanic stone, it's unlikely to be very fertile, at least not to the point where it could feed a sizeable army. Remember how Stannis and Selyse nearly starved during the siege laid by Tyrells at Roberts Rebellion- clearly there wasn't enough grain storage to last even a small portion of Roberts Army. Given that Crownlands main trade was fishing and naval trading, it makes sense that it's now very bare and lacking. 

As to The Reach and Dorne, the showrunners had very little time to squeeze administrative matters into the series, given how they're in the middle of a war, and in any case, those two regions were actually most stable, both economically and politically (as far as the show goes) prior to the war- Elllaria clearly had support behind her coup, which means that she was popular with banner men, and Olenna only had one banner man betray her (sadly, the most seasoned military commander). Both regions were previously untouched by direct combat and thus held on to their stores of food- even now farmers have likely kept their grain, given how Tarly didn't manage to make them give it up on time. Dorne is the hottest region with good trade routes into Essos and is likely to have kept most of its food too- not to mention that it's the hottest region in the kingdom and thus is not going to be affected by the coming winter as readily as the rest. She did give Yara conditions for an alliance- sessation of piracy, to me that seems fair and sensible. You're unlikely to see much substance in the show format- it has neither the volume nor the nuance of the books. Yes, it would help if showrunners avoided the massive plot holes (Dorne succcession, Faith Militant disappearance, etc, etc), but she's not going to be the next Jahaerys the Reconciliator anytime soon- most of her scenes will be of her military planning and attacks, or ramping up the Unresolved Sexual Tension with Jon. Show logic- given between practical and sensible everyday economy planning, and romantic plot line, the latter would always win as it makes for a better show.

I do agree that the whole breaking the wheel speech is at this point in time is just empty words- but so far she hasn't had a chance to reign and assert full control of the situation, so it's unfair to expect her to deliver her vision right now. She could declare the end of serfdom for all Westerlands smallfolk, but that won't make any difference if they're taken back into Lannister control tomorrow.

As for the choice she gave being equal to what slavers give slaves, I have to disagree- a quick death or servitude is not what slaves get most of the time. They get executed only after repeated attempts to escape and are instead mutilated and starved until they're broken. Even highborn hostages are often mistreated and forced to submit to their captor- take Sansa and Theon. At least I don't think Daenerys would forcibly marry Talla to Aggo and create House Aggo of Horn Hill, which is what most invaders would do. Daenerys could put Tarly in chains and have him beaten and mutilated until he says yes, but I don't see how that would be any better.

 Isn't that the whole idea behind the origin of Faceless Men and House of White and Black? To give the release of death to the slaves who couldn't go on suffering?

The fact that she's willing to negotiate with those who won't necessarily bend the knee to her, but are looking for dialogue like Jon shows that she is willing to cooperate if necesssary- she even lends her men to the wight hunt (stupid idea if I ever heard one). 

I was speaking of the civilian population of Dragonstone. I am pretty sure the men Stannis conscripted had wives, children and other unable to fight relatives. 

Regarding time for administrative matters, if the showrunners had wanted to squeeze the issue in, they had the chance. Instead they gave us stuff such as Missangrey and "foreign invasion". When you have to squeeze a story in a limited frame, you have to make choices, and it is clear to me the showrunners are going for cheap emotional value rather than depth.

Regarding the choices of slaves. A slave gets beaten up and broken when he/she makes the choice to try to be free and fails, not when they decide to die. I guess it is not that hard for any type of slave who really wants to die to do it. I do not buy the FM propaganda in the issue, that is just a story they tell themselves.

I can still see your point, though. Daenerys is a good person at heart, and she tries to be a good ruler. She may even have the potential to be a much more compassionate and fair ruler than any the 7 Kingdoms had since Aegon V.

And my beef is not with her, neither with you; it is the showrunners attempt to force feed us an empty concept just for the sake of making the character to modern audiences what drives me crazy

[falcotron]

5 hours ago, Crona said:

She seems to want to be a dictator.  If she wants to change it, she will introduce elections, terms for people in power, rights, and disbanding ALL (even Targeryan) royalty, There is no hint of this at all.

Actually, there is. At the end of S6, Dany charges a people's council to figure out how to rule themselves.

Everyone seems to misremember this as her giving Dragon's Bay to Daario to run, but it's pretty clear that he's only there to defend the people until they can come up with their own system and their own defense. And sure, he could usurp that power pretty easily, but it's hard to imagine Daario wanting to be a Royal Governor or Dictator for Life.

I have no idea how she expects a random assortment of uneducated former slaves and religious leaders (and possibly apparently-nice guys from slaver families? retiring sellswords? it's not clear who's included…) to pull this off. Especially in a society with no Enlightenment, no philosophical precursors to it, no professional justice system, no famous history of Greek democracy and Roman republicanism, not even a Viking-style tradition of actual power devolving to local mayors while the nobles are off fighting endless wars…

In fact, I don't even know if D&D intend us to expect it to work. It's basically the same thing she tried in book!Astapor, modulo the Daario part, and it's hard to imagine that Astapor under Cleon's corpse would have turned out well if only they hadn't lost the battle against Yunkai.

But anyway, in Westeros, it's not quite as implausible as in Slaver's/Dragon's Bay. There's a staunch anti-slavery tradition. Some of the nations have traditions of elected kingship, and the Ironborn even seem to have the makings of an Iceland-style proto-democracy, which Yara explicitly nods to. The Wildlings at times seem closer to modern anarchism than to tribalism, while on the other hand the rest of Westeros seems to have a thriving merchant class that only partly overlaps with the aristocracy, and I'll bet the Iron Bank, who seem to have near-unlimited resources, would love to invest some money in some mercantilist/proto-capitalist experiments. And having a class of people who've spent millennia doing nothing but philosophizing and writing histories can't hurt.

But I still wouldn't bet on it. If I were a merchant living in Westeros when Dany promised to break the wheel, even if some supernatural force could tell me how people in other worlds had made similar transitions successfully, I'd be packing up my family and moving to Braavos, even if I had to give most of my assets to a smuggler to do so.

[Stormourne]

Should this wheel not be Monarchy? I doubt she'd want to break that. So what is this Wheel she speaks of, if not the fight for democracy?

Democracy in Asoiaf would not be unrealistic, since historically, there was "democracy" before the medieval period, e.g. Republic of Rome; Ancient Greece - the birthplace of democracy, etc. However, I doubt Westeros will ever have a democracy. So this Wheel she wants to break is trivial.

[Lurid Jester]

7 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Considering there's a few smiths who know how to do Valyrian Steel still around, none of whom presumably have dragons in their back yard, it seems unlikely. Though to be fair, none of them are able to create Valyrian Steel blades, just reforge existing ones - which suggests it's a matter of ingredients, not manufacturing.

Agreed.  I've just noticed a few posts (here and elsewhere) that seem to indicate the secret behind valyrian steel has been revealed.  Basically boils down to being forged with dragon flame and quenched in dragon blood.  

I'm just trying to track down where that info is coming from. 

[Princess_of_Sunspear]

2 hours ago, Armand Gargalen said:

snip

I definitely agree with your points- the show goes along the lines of what looks cool on screen and gains notoriety, hence the preference for gratuitous sex to something that would actually advance the plot or patch the plot holes. This is why a lot of it seems contrived and unrealistic, and goes at odds with the established narrative.

And yes, I know there is no beef towards me or Dany, you raised legitimate points. It was a good discussion 

[Armand Gargalen]

1 hour ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

I definitely agree with your points- the show goes along the lines of what looks cool on screen and gains notoriety, hence the preference for gratuitous sex to something that would actually advance the plot or patch the plot holes. This is why a lot of it seems contrived and unrealistic, and goes at odds with the established narrative.

And yes, I know there is no beef towards me or Dany, you raised legitimate points. It was a good discussion 

And a pleasurable one, indeed. You actually made me think, and I have opened a new thread with the goal of discussing Dany and how she has been badly portrayed by the show. You can find it here, and further comments will be much appreciated.

 

[cade]