Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Lollygag

Tracing Character Butchery to the Set Up for Jonerys

34 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

A lot of the WTFs involving characters can be traced back to needing Jon and Dany in the same place and create circumstances where they could fall for each other. Dany needed a big build up to get to Westeros as she wouldn’t leave Essos until she believed she could win, but when arriving in Westeros, needed to be brought back down so that she would need Jon opening the door to a romance.

One can also trace a number of plot WTFs to set up for Jonerys. Example: Jaime not drowning in heavy armor or getting captured as that would weaken Cersei which means Dany would no longer need Jon.

Jon & Dany: two of the most bland and poorly developed characters in the series. The show seems to have decided that the surest route to viewer buy-in for this relationship is two bland hot people getting together.

Cersei: She’s still around to take Dany down a notch or two so that she’ll need Jon as an ally and won’t burn him alive for not kneeling.

Jaime: Jaime’s been in limbo because he needed to be at Cersei’s side so that she’d be strong enough to take Dany down so that she’d need Jon.

Tyrion: He needed to be a “good guy” so he could spear-head her return to Westeros and temper any fire-and-blood tendencies which might put Jon off her. He’s now suddenly a strategic idiot because Dany needed to be taken down a notch for reasons stated above.

Varys: Knows nothing these days apparently,and has forgot things he knew in the past like Ned Stark having a famous bastard. Again, Dany needed to be taken down a few notches so that she’d need Jon.

Sansa: Before her motives were confusing to say the least, but now she’s clearly 100% team Jon. So long as Sansa doesn’t feel threatened by a Joff/LF/Ramsey type, she won’t seek power. Someone needs to hold the North for Jon while he hangs with Dany. The rest is artificial conflict.

Arya: Her sole purpose seems to be to kill Cersei because they had to keep Cersei around to enable Jonerys.

Edit—Here’s some more:

Bran’s & Arya’s arrivals at Winterfell: These had to come after Jon already left as it might have swayed him from going to Dany. He was torn about going as it was. He especially could have been swayed from going to Dragonstone by Bran whose abilities are potentially a major asset to the war against the NK. We also can’t have Jon know about his birth before he and Dany meet as that plays against Jonerys.

Bran: Bran having the same weight in the show that he does in the books would detract from Dany’s importance. Especially her importance to Jon.

 

 

Edited by Lollygag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

A lot of the WTFs involving characters can be traced back to needing Jon and Dany in the same place and create circumstances where they could fall for each other. Dany needed a big build up to get to Westeros as she wouldn’t leave Essos until she believed she could win, but when arriving in Westeros, needed to be brought back down so that she would need Jon opening the door to a romance.

One can also trace a number of plot WTFs to set up for Jonerys. Example: Jaime not drowning in heavy armor or getting captured as that would weaken Cersei which means Dany would no longer need Jon.

Jon & Dany: two of the most bland and poorly developed characters in the series. The show seems to have decided that the surest route to viewer buy-in for this relationship is two bland hot people getting together.

Cersei: She’s still around to take Dany down a notch or two so that she’ll need Jon as an ally and won’t burn him alive for not kneeling.

Jaime: Jaime’s been in limbo because he needed to be at Cersei’s side so that she’d be strong enough to take Dany down so that she’d need Jon.

Tyrion: He needed to be a “good guy” so he could spear-head her return to Westeros and temper any fire-and-blood tendencies which might put Jon off her. He’s now suddenly a strategic idiot because Dany needed to be taken down a notch for reasons stated above.

Varys: Knows nothing these days apparently,and has forgot things he knew in the past like Ned Stark having a famous bastard. Again, Dany needed to be taken down a few notches so that she’d need Jon.

Sansa: Before her motives were confusing to say the least, but now she’s clearly 100% team Jon. So long as Sansa doesn’t feel threatened by a Joff/LF/Ramsey type, she won’t seek power. Someone needs to hold the North for Jon while he hangs with Dany. The rest is artificial conflict.

Arya: Her sole purpose seems to be to kill Cersei because they had to keep Cersei around to enable Jonerys.

 

You are using 'need' in a strange way here. There is a story to tell, it's not throwing dice to see how things play out. All drama forces conflict to some degree.

Like it or not, in book and show it's 99% certain that Dany and Jon are the crux of the story's endgame. Other characters facilitate moving the plot forward and you could break down almost any story to constituent parts to show supporting characters advancing the plot so that it can be finished off usually by the main protagonist(s).

Isn't that what we have been doing from Day 1? Whittling down the cast of thousands to find the really important core story?

If the characters we are looking at now don't in part support this main plot then at this point we wouldn't be following them anyway. The seasons of everyone living their own story is over. They need to in at least part pull their weight in what's left of the core story (in which Jon & Dany are front & centre) else they are going to be deader than Ned in short order (or else their death itself will be an important plot point).

I'd love to see Arya leave Winterfell and have her spend the last episodes starring in the Adventures of Arya & Nymeria, but that would not help advance or the overall story.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Daske said:

Other characters facilitate moving the plot forward and you could break down almost any story to constituent parts to show supporting characters advancing the plot so that it can be finished off usually by the main protagonist(s).

A good story for me is one where the characters move the plot, not one where the plot moves the characters. D&D are clearly in the later category.

If a viewer or reader is more plot-centric, then yes, my points won't bother them as much and may even seem logical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Daske said:

 

You are using 'need' in a strange way here. There is a story to tell, it's not throwing dice to see how things play out. All drama forces conflict to some degree.

Like it or not, in book and show it's 99% certain that Dany and Jon are the crux of the story's endgame. Other characters facilitate moving the plot forward and you could break down almost any story to constituent parts to show supporting characters advancing the plot so that it can be finished off usually by the main protagonist(s).

Isn't that what we have been doing from Day 1? Whittling down the cast of thousands to find the really important core story?

If the characters we are looking at now don't in part support this main plot then at this point we wouldn't be following them anyway. The seasons of everyone living their own story is over. They need to in at least part pull their weight in what's left of the core story (in which Jon & Dany are front & centre) else they are going to be deader than Ned in short order (or else their death itself will be an important plot point).

I'd love to see Arya leave Winterfell and have her spend the last episodes starring in the Adventures of Arya & Nymeria, but that would not help advance or the overall story.

 

Actually GRRM named 5 main characters for the books, not 2. Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya and Bran.

Personally, I dont believe that ASOIAF has only one core story - it has a few - and Jon and Dany wont necessarily be the only heroes or even necessarily the 'main' heroes by end of it.

Game of Thrones now seems to have mostly one main plot, but that is mostly due to poor planning and horrible writing, not because of any actual story based need to focus almost entirely on Jon and Dany.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

A good story for me is one where the characters move the plot, not one where the plot moves the characters. D&D are clearly in the later category.

If a viewer or reader is more plot-centric, then yes, my points won't bother them as much and may even seem logical.

This. So much This.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

A good story for me is one where the characters move the plot, not one where the plot moves the characters. D&D are clearly in the later category.

If a viewer or reader is more plot-centric, then yes, my points won't bother them as much and may even seem logical.

I think it's normal to want both.

But the plot must move the characters to some degree, at least for a novel or serialisation. This is what a writer must plan for, They have to be at certain places at certain times and they must make specific decisions at other times to advance by the plot.

Else it's not really a story. I'm not saying that character development isn't important, it is, but if it's just the characters doing their stuff without consequence to the over-aching narrative then you have something like the format of a never-ending super-hero comic series or a soap opera.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Personally, I dont believe that ASOIAF has only one core story - it has a few - and Jon and Dany wont necessarily be the only heroes or even necessarily the 'main' heroes by end of it.

Game of Thrones now seems to have mostly one main plot, but that is mostly due to poor planning and horrible writing, not because of any actual story based need to focus almost entirely on Jon and Dany.

 

No, it is mostly because it is a TV adaptation and needs to narrow things down to fewer main players in the story.

In ASOIAF, GRRM can explore all the side characters as far as he wants, but the show doesn't have that freedom. TV shows need to end in a way that things seem resolved and by having too many main characters, that can't happen. The show is already somewhat suffering because it has people like Varys and Littlefinger there with no clear purpose - even Tyrion is falling into that category. Theon and Euron, too.

They've left themselves short on time, as the show only has one season left, to conclude the story, but because there are so many characters left in it, it seems like they are forcing things. Maybe if the show had chosen long ago to focus on Jon and Dany, it would have worked better for them. A lot of the fringe characters that they have no direction for could have been eliminated in a meaningful way, as the show progressed, as opposed to in a hurry, which may end up being the case. But it was only when they ran out of source material that they flipped everything onto Jon and Dany, which has left them a smaller window to fit everything they want to happen to fringe characters into.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

No, it is mostly because it is a TV adaptation and needs to narrow things down to fewer main players in the story.

In ASOIAF, GRRM can explore all the side characters as far as he wants, but the show doesn't have that freedom. TV shows need to end in a way that things seem resolved and by having too many main characters, that can't happen. The show is already somewhat suffering because it has people like Varys and Littlefinger there with no clear purpose - even Tyrion is falling into that category. Theon and Euron, too.

They've left themselves short on time, as the show only has one season left, to conclude the story, but because there are so many characters left in it, it seems like they are forcing things. Maybe if the show had chosen long ago to focus on Jon and Dany, it would have worked better for them. A lot of the fringe characters that they have no direction for could have been eliminated in a meaningful way, as the show progressed, as opposed to in a hurry, which may end up being the case. But it was only when they ran out of source material that they flipped everything onto Jon and Dany, which has left them a smaller window to fit everything they want to happen to fringe characters into.

Actually, the show would have been even worse if they focused just on Jon and Dany even earlier.

And 5 or 6 (if we add Sansa) is NOT too many 'main' characters. Even 8 (if we add Cersei and Jaime) is manageable in an ensemble tv show. 

Game of Thrones would have been so much a better show and told a better story if they hadn't sacrificed characterisations and plot lines because of Jonaerys or showrunner favouritism for specific actors and expanding their roles because of that.

D&D should have just told the story (although still cutting a crapload of side stories and characters from the books) for the main characters, with a little backstory for the more important secondary characters (Brienne, the Hound, Varys, Littlefinger, etc) and used more focused and logical plot lines for the main characters.

D&D ruined Varys, Arya, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Bran, Jaime and Sansa's characters and plot lines for the sake of Jon, Daenerys and Cersei ---> and it really sucks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Actually, the show would have been even worse if they focused just on Jon and Dany even earlier.

And 5 or 6 (if we add Sansa) is NOT too many 'main' characters. Even 8 (if we add Cersei and Jaime) is manageable in an ensemble tv show. 

Game of Thrones would have been so much a better show and told a better story if they hadn't sacrificed characterisations and plot lines because of Jonaerys or showrunner favouritism for specific actors and expanding their roles because of that.

D&D should have just told the story (although still cutting a crapload of side stories and characters from the books) for the main characters, with a little backstory for the more important secondary characters (Brienne, the Hound, Varys, Littlefinger, etc) and used more focused and logical plot lines for the main characters.

D&D ruined Varys, Arya, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Bran, Jaime and Sansa's characters and plot lines for the sake of Jon, Daenerys and Cersei ---> and it really sucks.

I agree that it 'even 8' isn't too many main characters, but there are more than that many. Main characters, who have been there from the beginning, like Tyrion, Littlefinger, Varys and Jaime are being ruined because they don't know what to do with them, not because of Jon and Daenerys. The showrunners don't know how to develop these characters, but they know exactly what they want to do with Jon and Daenerys, yet they are keeping the others there, in the background, as if they have a role to play. It is becoming increasingly likely that some of them have no role to play.

It would be better, despite my love for some of these characters, if they weren't there at all. Nickolaj Coster-Waldau (Jaime) is apparently on £2m an episode, but for what purpose? I love Jaime, but until he tried to take out Daenerys, he had done nothing since he freed Tyrion. The show is keeping characters like Jaime in the forefront - making them look important, when to the showrunners, they aren't - and disappointing the fans when the characters do nothing.

The three characters they haven't ruined is Jon, Daenerys and Cersei. It is clear these are their favourite players, so why do they bother keeping fringe characters to use them poorly?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Daske said:

I think it's normal to want both.

But the plot must move the characters to some degree, at least for a novel or serialisation. This is what a writer must plan for, They have to be at certain places at certain times and they must make specific decisions at other times to advance by the plot.

Else it's not really a story. I'm not saying that character development isn't important, it is, but if it's just the characters doing their stuff without consequence to the over-aching narrative then you have something like the format of a never-ending super-hero comic series or a soap opera.

 

I'm really not sure what you're getting at.

A story where characters move the plot doesn't mean abandoning plot. It doesn't mean that characters don't react to plot. It doesn't mean characters just meander about aimlessly and without purpose.

I want a story without characters being butchered. That doesn't mean plot gets tossed out the window. If characters are butchered to move plot, something has gone very, very wrong which is the point of the OP. Strong characterization and strong plot are not mutually exclusive, but too often the show seems to think it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I agree that it 'even 8' isn't too many main characters, but there are more than that many. Main characters, who have been there from the beginning, like Tyrion, Littlefinger, Varys and Jaime are being ruined because they don't know what to do with them, not because of Jon and Daenerys. 

Varys and Littlefinger are not main characters, never have been. They are secondary characters and important to the plot, but ASOIAF is not and was never meant to be their story. They influence the plot and the main characters, but the story isn't about them.

It is about Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya and Bran (possibly Sansa, Jaime and Cersei as well - especially in the show). Thats 8 main characters.

EVERYONE else is a secondary character. The story is not about them. They can serve an important role and influence on the story and main characters, and even have some development themselves, but they are in a supporting role.  Their primary place in the story is on how they impact/support the lives of the main characters and the plot.

Varys, LF, Brienne, Hound,Sam, Ned, Cat, Robb, Ser Davos, Ser Jorah, Ser Barristan, Thoros, etc - all supporting characters. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/14/2017 at 10:43 PM, Lollygag said:

A lot of the WTFs involving characters can be traced back to needing Jon and Dany in the same place and create circumstances where they could fall for each other. Dany needed a big build up to get to Westeros as she wouldn’t leave Essos until she believed she could win, but when arriving in Westeros, needed to be brought back down so that she would need Jon opening the door to a romance.

 

One can also trace a number of plot WTFs to set up for Jonerys. Example: Jaime not drowning in heavy armor or getting captured as that would weaken Cersei which means Dany would no longer need Jon.

 

Jon & Dany: two of the most bland and poorly developed characters in the series. The show seems to have decided that the surest route to viewer buy-in for this relationship is two bland hot people getting together.

 

Cersei: She’s still around to take Dany down a notch or two so that she’ll need Jon as an ally and won’t burn him alive for not kneeling.

 

Jaime: Jaime’s been in limbo because he needed to be at Cersei’s side so that she’d be strong enough to take Dany down so that she’d need Jon.

 

Tyrion: He needed to be a “good guy” so he could spear-head her return to Westeros and temper any fire-and-blood tendencies which might put Jon off her. He’s now suddenly a strategic idiot because Dany needed to be taken down a notch for reasons stated above.

 

Varys: Knows nothing these days apparently,and has forgot things he knew in the past like Ned Stark having a famous bastard. Again, Dany needed to be taken down a few notches so that she’d need Jon.

 

Sansa: Before her motives were confusing to say the least, but now she’s clearly 100% team Jon. So long as Sansa doesn’t feel threatened by a Joff/LF/Ramsey type, she won’t seek power. Someone needs to hold the North for Jon while he hangs with Dany. The rest is artificial conflict.

 

Arya: Her sole purpose seems to be to kill Cersei because they had to keep Cersei around to enable Jonerys.

 

 

 

If only the main point of this were true, the show would be on a great path. If the whole point was to set up jonerys, Cersei the Hag would have, should have died either at the end of last season or in the first 2-3 episode of this season. But no, the main thing has never been to set up jonerys. Jonerys is a bit of fanservice and also a set up for the true point of this entire quagmire, Cersei the Hag impirium. The whole show has had one main theme, Cersei always gets what she wants no matter the odds. Even a blind man can see this. Daenerys comes in with 3 dragons, the largest army possible with the dothraki alone plus unsullieds, all dedicated to fight and died for daenerys. Plus an armada of ships and two of the most powerful kingdom that havent been touched by war in Dorne and the reach. Yet she gets her ass kicked in the first 3 episodes. Leaving her with no allies and only her dothraki and dragons available. She was indeed taken down 2 or 3 notches. Finally they let Daenerys do something and she showed that Cersei never had a chance but guess what?, we need to leave Cersei alone and on the throne because la di da. Sorry, we need to leave Cersei on the throne because we need to convince her that dead men are real eventhou she has no power why remove her or kill her. The Cersei Imperium has always been the main set up of this giant quagmire called game of thrones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is not very convincing how they do it but it is quite clear that the Dany-Jon love story is George's plan for them, and he will set it up just fine.

The idea that the characters decide with whom they fall in love with or that they drive the story isn't exactly the case. They all dangle at the threads of the author.

Considering the large assemble of the cast and the distances involved it may be somewhat difficult to set things up but once Daenerys is in Westeros she and Jon should meet sooner or later. And then things go on from there.

The only thing the show does reasonably well this season is the Dany-Jon thing. They take need time for that, unlike any other plot development they have. Jon and Dany didn't fall in love on first sight. It still doesn't make any sense that Jon didn't come with a marriage proposal in mind or asked her for her hand when he realized how she looked. I mean, that's what I had done in his position, never mind her personality. She looks gorgeous, and once I'm her consort she and her people most definitely will help me with the Others.

But, no, we ignore the rules of this world and want to have love before a marriage. In a world where pretty much any noble or royal marriage is arranged.

This makes me think that Dany-Jon might meet under completely different circumstances in the books - with him either not being a king or for some other reason being unable to ask for her hand right away. Dany could not possible marry some Stark bastard who is not wearing a crown. Such a man would be far beneath her rank-wise, even a legitimized Stark bastard would, most likely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The only thing the show does reasonably well this season is the Dany-Jon thing. They take need time for that, unlike any other plot development they have. Jon and Dany didn't fall in love on first sight. It still doesn't make any sense that Jon didn't come with a marriage proposal in mind or asked her for her hand when he realized how she looked. I mean, that's what I had done in his position, never mind her personality. She looks gorgeous, and once I'm her consort she and her people most definitely will help me with the Others.

Perhaps the idea is that because Jon refused to bend the knee knowing that his bannermen didn't even like the idea of him visiting the Queen at Dragonstone, it would be an even further stretch for his bannermen to accept that he has decided to marry a Targaryen Queen.

I think it would be landing a bit of a surprise on the North that a trip to Dragonstone to treat with Daenerys over the possibility of mining some dragon glass that they didn't agree with Jon on ended up with proposing to Daenerys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Perhaps the idea is that because Jon refused to bend the knee knowing that his bannermen didn't even like the idea of him visiting the Queen at Dragonstone, it would be an even further stretch for his bannermen to accept that he has decided to marry a Targaryen Queen.

I think it would be landing a bit of a surprise on the North that a trip to Dragonstone to treat with Daenerys over the possibility of mining some dragon glass that they didn't agree with Jon on ended up with proposing to Daenerys.

LOL, if Jon is the puppet of those bannermen of his he is no king at all. Robb didn't ask his bannermen for permission when he married Jeyne (or Talisa in the show), did he?

And quite frankly, a Queen Daenerys and King Jon could keep their domains apart, only formally reuniting the kingdoms again when it passed to their son. How power is shared and decisions are made within their marriage is nobody's business.

But, quite frankly, a King Jon can also bend the knee whenever he wants. Sure, his subjects could rebel. But then they would be on their own in the fight against the Others, right?

This whole thing is just an artificial and quite ridiculous conflict in the show. They should show those wights to those Northern lords, and ask them point blank whether they want to face them all by themselves or with Jon (and Daenerys) leading them. Who cares whether the queen is mad or may become mad if the ice demons are going to kill everyone? How likely is it that her terror regime is going to kill literally everyone, too?

And by the way - Dany allowing this rebellious would-be king there to mine dragonglass on her island is a huge boon. She didn't have to do that. If Jon wants to be an independent king it is his duty to protect his people, not Dany's. She is not obliged to help him with that. The army of the dead is only going to threaten her island (or the south of Westeros) after they have overrun the North. And Dany can fight them then.

She shows a lot more flexibility and goodwill than Jon who asks for help but offers nothing in return.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, if Jon is the puppet of those bannermen of his he is no king at all. Robb didn't ask his bannermen for permission when he married Jeyne (or Talisa in the show), did he?

True, but Jeyne wasn't some foreign invader that claims to be Queen. Nor was Jeyne the daughter of the Mad King. Then again, Robb's marriage got him murdered, after all.

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And quite frankly, a Queen Daenerys and King Jon could keep their domains apart, only formally reuniting the kingdoms again when it passed to their son. How power is shared and decisions are made within their marriage is nobody's business.

But, quite frankly, a King Jon can also bend the knee whenever he wants. Sure, his subjects could rebel. But then they would be on their own in the fight against the Others, right?

This whole thing is just an artificial and quite ridiculous conflict in the show. They should show those wights to those Northern lords, and ask them point blank whether they want to face them all by themselves or with Jon (and Daenerys) leading them. Who cares whether the queen is mad or may become mad if the ice demons are going to kill everyone? How likely is it that her terror regime is going to kill literally everyone, too

I agree that all of this makes far more sense than what Jon actually chose to do. Combining the power of their houses together would have gone a long way to securing an far greater army for when the army of the dead finally come.

Jon, though, seems to realise that there are already seeds of doubt in the minds of his men, especially when after he decided to go to Dragonstone in the first place. He didn't want to bend the knee so he could keep his men sweet and despite it being a lame reason, it is probably the reason he didn't want to marry Daenerys, either. She is not Aerys, but her father killed his uncle and grandfather. The North remembers, they say. Jon already lost the support of his men at the Wall, who ended up murdering him, it now seems like Jon is trying to do all he can to make sure he doesn't lose his men again.

The point seems to be that despite the threat of the Others and the wights, unless someone has actually seen them, they are still likely to put their silly political squabbles ahead of the threat of the army of the dead. Despite the oncoming assault of the army of the dead, Jon knows his men would still get hung up on something like the idea of him marrying Daenerys. And what would be the point in he and Daenerys marrying if not to bring their forces together? He couldn't assure her that he could do that unless his men were 100% behind the decision.

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:
21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

And by the way - Dany allowing this rebellious would-be king there to mine dragonglass on her island is a huge boon. She didn't have to do that. If Jon wants to be an independent king it is his duty to protect his people, not Dany's. She is not obliged to help him with that. The army of the dead is only going to threaten her island (or the south of Westeros) after they have overrun the North. And Dany can fight them then.

She shows a lot more flexibility and goodwill than Jon who asks for help but offers nothing in return.

 

Jon's plan to take on the Night King and his army of the dead, it isn't just to save himself and his own people; he is doing it to save humanity, and Daenerys and her people are part of humanity that he is trying to save.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

True, but Jeyne wasn't some foreign invader that claims to be Queen. Nor was Jeyne the daughter of the Mad King. Then again, Robb's marriage got him murdered, after all.

Because he broke a previous marriage contract. Not because his bannermen thought they could dictate who their king is supposed to marry.

2 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Jon, though, seems to realise that there are already seeds of doubt in the minds of his men, especially when after he decided to go to Dragonstone in the first place. He didn't want to bend the knee so he could keep his men sweet and despite it being a lame reason, it is probably the reason he didn't want to marry Daenerys, either. She is not Aerys, but her father killed his uncle and grandfather. The North remembers, they say. Jon already lost the support of his men at the Wall, who ended up murdering him, it now seems like Jon is trying to do all he can to make sure he doesn't lose his men again.

Nothing of this reasoning is given in the show, though. A possible marriage alliance between Dany and Jon doesn't even come up. Which is ridiculous in itself. You speculating why Jon doesn't marry Dany makes no sense when nobody in the show is even thinking about that. 

It also makes no sense that the Northmen consider Dany a possible enemy. They know - or should know - that the Others are threatening them all, and they know that Cersei and Dany are natural enemies now. Cersei is their enemy, too. Isn't the enemy or your enemy likely going to be your friend? And don't want the Northmen not also to put down Cersei for what she did to them all? What real issues have the Northmen with Daenerys Targaryen?

Jon doesn't care about the fact that Aerys killed his grandfather and uncle. He never knew these people, and Aerys paid the price for that long ago. This debt has been paid already.

2 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

The point seems to be that despite the threat of the Others and the wights, unless someone has actually seen them, they are still likely to put their silly political squabbles ahead of the threat of the army of the dead. Despite the oncoming assault of the army of the dead, Jon knows his men would still get hung up on something like the idea of him marrying Daenerys. And what would be the point in he and Daenerys marrying if not to bring their forces together? He couldn't assure her that he could do that unless his men were 100% behind the decision.

Does he? Again, this isn't brought up on the show because they play this as a modern love story, not something that fits into the feudal framework of George's setting.

It would also be Jon's duty to actually hammer the reality of the threat of the Others into the heads of his bannermen. That's what he should have done at once after they made him king. 

2 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Jon's plan to take on the Night King and his army of the dead, it isn't just to save himself and his own people; he is doing it to save humanity, and Daenerys and her people are part of humanity that he is trying to save.

Where do you get that? Where has Jon ever said he is driven by the motivation to save mankind? I don't recall anything like that. He realizes that the Others are a threat to everyone (in Westeros) but even he (in the books) is not willing to work with anyone. I'm not even sure he and the other people at the Wall realize that the Others threaten the entire world.

Jon tells us that he wants to bring death and destruction to House Lannister and he clearly declares war on Ramsay. Tommen, the Boltons, the Freys, etc. could technically have helped fight against the Others. And the men under the command of those people most certainly could have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Nothing of this reasoning is given in the show, though. A possible marriage alliance between Dany and Jon doesn't even come up. Which is ridiculous in itself. You speculating why Jon doesn't marry Dany makes no sense when nobody in the show is even thinking about that. 

 

What is the point in discussing it, if it hasn't been brought up in the show? If something hasn't been made clear, all we can do is speculate. This debate started because you claimed it didn't make sense that Jon didn't propose a marriage agreement with Daenerys, something neither of the two of them or any of the other characters suggested. You mentioning it at all was bringing up something that wasn't in the show at all. My only replies to you could be purely based on speculation, as there are no facts to go by, as it hasn't been suggested at all. You saying that me speculating the reasons makes no sense because nobody in the show is even thinking about it also applies to you bringing it up. I was merely politely replying to your suggestion.

 

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It also makes no sense that the Northmen consider Dany a possible enemy. They know - or should know - that the Others are threatening them all, and they know that Cersei and Dany are natural enemies now. Cersei is their enemy, too. Isn't the enemy or your enemy likely going to be your friend? And don't want the Northmen not also to put down Cersei for what she did to them all? What real issues have the Northmen with Daenerys Targaryen?

 

I agree that it makes no sense. The North hating the South, the North hating the Targaryen princess ties in with real life bigotry. Hating something that is foreign to you. She is foreigner landing in Westeros trying to take it over, I am sure a few hate her for that. Randyll Tarly didn't seem to like the idea of it and Tarly's were once Targaryen loyalists.

 

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Does he? Again, this isn't brought up on the show because they play this as a modern love story, not something that fits into the feudal framework of George's setting.

There would be no point bringing together House Targaryen and House Stark unless it was to unite the power of the North with Daenerys' army. I am only speculating again, but I can't imagine Jon wanting to do it unless he felt his bannermen would agree to that union.

He also said in the previous episode, when Davos pointed out he had been staring at Daenerys' good heart, that he had 'no time for that'. Maybe his true reason for not offering a marriage to Daenerys is he simply his nothing but the Night King and his army of the dead on his mind.

 

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Where do you get that? Where has Jon ever said he is driven by the motivation to save mankind? I don't recall anything like that. He realizes that the Others are a threat to everyone (in Westeros) but even he (in the books) is not willing to work with anyone. I'm not even sure he and the other people at the Wall realize that the Others threaten the entire world.

Jon tells us that he wants to bring death and destruction to House Lannister and he clearly declares war on Ramsay. Tommen, the Boltons, the Freys, etc. could technically have helped fight against the Others. And the men under the command of those people most certainly could have.

I don't recall him saying that he is trying to save humanity, but as the army of the dead are a threat to all of humanity, he would, indeed, end up saving all of humanity if he was to defeat them.

Yes, but he declared war on Ramsey due to Ramsey sending him the Bastard Letter and holding Winterfell. In the letter, Ramsey agreed to not trouble Jon or his crows unless Jon provided Ramsey with all his requests, which Jon was never going to agree to. One way or another, they were going to have to fight. The last thing Jon would have needed were the Others and the army of the dead coming at him from the North and the Boltons from the South. He needed to deal with one of them. And the Boltons sure as hell weren't going to come to his aid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

What is the point in discussing it, if it hasn't been brought up in the show? If something hasn't been made clear, all we can do is speculate. This debate started because you claimed it didn't make sense that Jon didn't propose a marriage agreement with Daenerys, something neither of the two of them or any of the other characters suggested. You mentioning it at all was bringing up something that wasn't in the show at all. My only replies to you could be purely based on speculation, as there are no facts to go by, as it hasn't been suggested at all. You saying that me speculating the reasons makes no sense because nobody in the show is even thinking about it also applies to you bringing it up. I was merely politely replying to your suggestion.

The concept of a marriage alliance between male and female royalty/nobility is very well established in this fictional universe, both in the books and the show.

In this case there is a clear and obvious parallel between Cersei-Euron and Dany-Jon. And I assume you do recall that Euron did ask Cersei for her hand, do you not? And she even agreed to marry him when the war is won.

Jon's weirdo bannermen just serve as a convenient and unconvincing excuse to create tension there. But since he never asked them about their opinion on his future queen he cannot really know what they would say, can he?

Did Cersei or Euron ask their particular bannermen/subjects on their opinion about their marriage prospects? No, because kings and even lords are under no obligation to do this in this world.

The entire thing just makes no sense, regardless how you spin it.

4 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I agree that it makes no sense. The North hating the South, the North hating the Targaryen princess ties in with real life bigotry. Hating something that is foreign to you. She is foreigner landing in Westeros trying to take it over, I am sure a few hate her for that. Randyll Tarly didn't seem to like the idea of it and Tarly's were once Targaryen loyalists.

This is why the Tarly plot is perhaps the worst plot in the entire history of this show. Those people practically wanted to be burned alive. No sane person would ever do that. And neither would Lord Randyll - who actually won a rather important victory in the name of the Mad King - ever consider his daughter a 'foreigner'. She may have grown up in a foreign land but she is still a Targaryen. Just as a Tarly born and raised in Braavos would still be a Tarly.

This is a medieval setting. Nobility cares about blood, not nationality or where you grew up.

There might be people in the books who are going to slander Dany as a savage and barbarian but they will be the ones rallying behind Aegon Targaryen. And he'll also be grown up in Essos.

4 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

There would be no point bringing together House Targaryen and House Stark unless it was to unite the power of the North with Daenerys' army. I am only speculating again, but I can't imagine Jon wanting to do it unless he felt his bannermen would agree to that union.

It would be nice or interesting if this was the case. But then, the possibility of a marriage alliance doesn't even come up, unlike with Cersei-Euron. And we haven't even discussed the fact that this thought doesn't even come up in Dany's mind, either. That is especially striking since she left Daario back in Meereen so that she would be free to enter into a Westerosi marriage. So why doesn't she consider marrying Jon Snow? Nobody else showed up on Dragonstone so far. And who would be a better match for a queen than another (would-be) king?

4 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

He also said in the previous episode, when Davos pointed out he had been staring at Daenerys' good heart, that he had 'no time for that'. Maybe his true reason for not offering a marriage to Daenerys is he simply his nothing but the Night King and his army of the dead on his mind.

If so, then he pretty much failed at that. After all, he hasn't got any real support from Daenerys as of yet. Why on earth didn't he ask her to accompany her on his wight hunt? She has dragons...

4 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I don't recall him saying that he is trying to save humanity, but as the army of the dead are a threat to all of humanity, he would, indeed, end up saving all of humanity if he was to defeat them.

But that's a separate issue. As far as I can see it show Jon fights for his people - his kingdom - and book Jon more or less tries to do what's his duty as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He has no ambition to save mankind or other shit like that. He doesn't even see himself as a great hero with a mission.

4 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Yes, but he declared war on Ramsey due to Ramsey sending him the Bastard Letter and holding Winterfell. In the letter, Ramsey agreed to not trouble Jon or his crows unless Jon provided Ramsey with all his requests, which Jon was never going to agree to. One way or another, they were going to have to fight. The last thing Jon would have needed were the Others and the army of the dead coming at him from the North and the Boltons from the South. He needed to deal with one of them. And the Boltons sure as hell weren't going to come to his aid.

I don't want to delve into all that again right now, there are rather long threads on this subject. But the point is that the Boltons are human beings, too, people who might have decided to fight the good fight against the Others if anyone - Stannis or Jon - had ever tried to convince them that they were all in mortal danger. And it would have been in their best interest. I mean, how many men who could have manned the Wall are going to die in the battles at Winterfell? How many did die in the show?

Apparently they are trying to convince Cersei of the real danger now. If they did that with book Cersei - which they most likely won't since Aegon should be king by then - there is no reason why they shouldn't also be willing to work with Walder Frey or Ramsay considering how fucked-up and outright evil and insane Cersei is in the books and show.

I daresay that blowing up the Great Sept is a worse crime than the Red Wedding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎15‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 11:48 AM, Gaz0680 said:

Actually GRRM named 5 main characters for the books, not 2. Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya and Bran.

Personally, I dont believe that ASOIAF has only one core story - it has a few - and Jon and Dany wont necessarily be the only heroes or even necessarily the 'main' heroes by end of it.

Game of Thrones now seems to have mostly one main plot, but that is mostly due to poor planning and horrible writing, not because of any actual story based need to focus almost entirely on Jon and Dany.

 

It has many subplots.  But there is a core story.  It's about the song of ice and fire.  It's the definition of ice and fire that's up for interpretation.  Does ice mean Bran and Arya, fire Dany and Tyrion with Jon bridging both?  Does it mean just Jon and Dany?  Or does it really mean Jon (who is both ice and fire)?

But there are enough hints in the books and show where they make it clear who the "real" enemy is.  The squabbles of man are nothing.  In the books and show the main reason for those squabbles is a plot device to weaken the realm so that when the Others break through all seems lost until the heroes save the day (the age of heroes).

I think the twist will be that as soon as the threat is over mankind will revert to type and the game of thrones will begin again with man learning zero lessons from the recent past or the self sacrifice some of the heroes have to make.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0