Jump to content

Tracing Character Butchery to the Set Up for Jonerys


Lollygag

Recommended Posts

On ‎15‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 1:37 PM, Lollygag said:

I'm really not sure what you're getting at.

A story where characters move the plot doesn't mean abandoning plot. It doesn't mean that characters don't react to plot. It doesn't mean characters just meander about aimlessly and without purpose.

I want a story without characters being butchered. That doesn't mean plot gets tossed out the window. If characters are butchered to move plot, something has gone very, very wrong which is the point of the OP. Strong characterization and strong plot are not mutually exclusive, but too often the show seems to think it is.

A subset of people here have been saying that the characters have been butchered since Day1 and every day since. It's not new. Someone even (seriously) stated that Ser Pounce had been butchered by the writers. 

If you are sensing a change in the focus I would suggest it is purely because we are moving into the end-game. We 'know' who most of the characters are now. Some are balanced on a knife edge and we will learn more. But really we know them by now.

A prime example 'in story' is Jamie cutting-off Tyrion's my dad hates me speech with 'What do you want?'. In an earlier episode we would have got the whole speech to better help understand Tyrion's psyche. But we have been there done that - don't need to hear that again. That's not to say there is nothing else to learn about these characters, there will be, but really, it's been 6 years (many more in the books) - now let's get the team together and go kill some undead.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Daske said:

A subset of people here have been saying that the characters have been butchered since Day1 and every day since. It's not new. Someone even (seriously) stated that Ser Pounce had been butchered by the writers. 

If you are sensing a change in the focus I would suggest it is purely because we are moving into the end-game. We 'know' who most of the characters are now. Some are balanced on a knife edge and we will learn more. But really we know them by now.

A prime example 'in story' is Jamie cutting-off Tyrion's my dad hates me speech with 'What do you want?'. In an earlier episode we would have got the whole speech to better help understand Tyrion's psyche. But we have been there done that - don't need to hear that again. That's not to say there is nothing else to learn about these characters, there will be, but really, it's been 6 years (many more in the books) - now let's get the team together and go kill some undead.  

 

Totally this.  All character development should now be done.  All political plots (which only existed to weaken Westeros to make the Others invasion more dramatic anyway) should now have been played out.  It's time for the prophecies to be fulfilled and for the story to be dominated by the war for the dawn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vary's littlefinger, Tyrion, plus multiple side characters may not have done much lately. It doesn't mean they have nothing left to give. Just they may be sidelined for a bit. with only a handful of episodes left. Not everyone is getting an elaborate ending.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lot of the "problems" as you call them surface so strongly because with decreased runtime (but increased budget/minute) they decided to devote relatively most of it to their "main" characters Jon and Dany. So they are what we see the most. People always look for whom are we supposed to root for in this scene, sometimes no one. Neither Dany nor Tyrion is wrong about how to handle the Tarlys.

Strange how people seem to say characters have been "butchered" sure they've changed between books and show (as is logical some of them are amalgations after all. Bronn sin't just bronn he's also Ylin payne , Shae doubles for Tysha and so on) the show characterization has been mostly consistent with relatively little character development(possibly a problem). If you forget about the differences between book and show (wich GRRM himself has said we should) the characters behave prety consistent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe the Dany jon tale will encompass a far lot more time and character development in the books then what the show has devoted to it. 100's of pages will be ste up to bring them together, not 3 episodes. The show makes it so wooden.

Great post!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Daske said:

A subset of people here have been saying that the characters have been butchered since Day1 and every day since. It's not new. Someone even (seriously) stated that Ser Pounce had been butchered by the writers. 

If you are sensing a change in the focus I would suggest it is purely because we are moving into the end-game. We 'know' who most of the characters are now. Some are balanced on a knife edge and we will learn more. But really we know them by now.

A prime example 'in story' is Jamie cutting-off Tyrion's my dad hates me speech with 'What do you want?'. In an earlier episode we would have got the whole speech to better help understand Tyrion's psyche. But we have been there done that - don't need to hear that again. That's not to say there is nothing else to learn about these characters, there will be, but really, it's been 6 years (many more in the books) - now let's get the team together and go kill some undead.  

 

There are people who would say the story was butcherd from day 1 yes... but thats just thier opinion, and from my own standpoint i'd say, if it was butchered like it is not back from day 1, the show would NOT have caught on and became such a success. While there were deviations and ommitions from the books and the universe GRRM created, it wasn't unto after season 4 where it really went off-road.

i sure its partially due to the source material not being available anymore.

Jamie cutting off Tyrion and not giving him a chance to speak does Tyrions character a disservice as he's a purly dialogue drivin character. He's not a hero (persay) but he aids the story with his dialogue. its why his character is so beloved in the books. What he says to his brother even haunts his brother thruout the story. (moonboy for all i know). While we know much about these characters, the story hasn't shown their archs completed so mcuh as to be done with the development of the characters. Especially characters like jamie, who his become a static character unlike he is in the books. Thats just poor writing no matter who u guage it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, ramla said:

There are people who would say the story was butcherd from day 1 yes... but thats just thier opinion, and from my own standpoint i'd say, if it was butchered like it is not back from day 1, the show would NOT have caught on and became such a success. While there were deviations and ommitions from the books and the universe GRRM created, it wasn't unto after season 4 where it really went off-road.

i sure its partially due to the source material not being available anymore.

Jamie cutting off Tyrion and not giving him a chance to speak does Tyrions character a disservice as he's a purly dialogue drivin character. He's not a hero (persay) but he aids the story with his dialogue. its why his character is so beloved in the books. What he says to his brother even haunts his brother thruout the story. (moonboy for all i know). While we know much about these characters, the story hasn't shown their archs completed so mcuh as to be done with the development of the characters. Especially characters like jamie, who his become a static character unlike he is in the books. Thats just poor writing no matter who u guage it.

And yet post Season 4, despite some dips, it has delivered some of the best received episodes so far. I would also argue that it did not hit the mega-time in popularity until after then also. And many fans are loving this season.

Wasn't Jaime just faffing about at Riverrun last we saw him the books? And once beloved Tyrion had somehow become a rapist and had just somehow finished his never-ending boring self-pitying bender. Is that character development? I don't know. But he sure wasn't as fun to read about.

But anyway, you have to start winding up somewhere, and spend time on things that actually mean something to the over-arching story. We are 65 episodes down and have 9 episodes to go (if my maths is right). I enjoy good character development as much as anyone, but we've had 50 hours of it with the odd battle thrown in to break things up! 6 years! at some point the story has to end, and they need to start concentrating on that. Which they have done - hence the pacing, because they know they won't be able to wrap it all up otherwise. Do you really want to fill out the last 9 episodes with nothing but soul-searching conversations, nothing resolved and then finish on a Sopranos ending? Or Battlestar Galactica for that matter. Even GRRM said he doesn't want to 'do a Lost'. He knows things need to be wrapped up correctly story-wise (although I don't think we will ever see it from him).

At this point what does character development even mean? All the basic character traits are now well established. If you want more, then isn't the story and drama that comes with it delivering that - Sansa trying to grow up? Arya trying to grow up? Home truths between Jaime and Tyrion? Bronn's heroism that we hadn't really seen before? Jaime's heroism for that matter? Jon bonding with Drogon? Dany and Jon warming to each other? Dany greying her principles? Tyrion questioning his moral position? Sam deciding he wants to be someone? Jorah fulfilling his promise? The Hound finding meaning to his life? And so on... There's still stuff in there between the battle scenes imo.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Daske said:

A subset of people here have been saying that the characters have been butchered since Day1 and every day since. It's not new. Someone even (seriously) stated that Ser Pounce had been butchered by the writers. 

If you are sensing a change in the focus I would suggest it is purely because we are moving into the end-game. We 'know' who most of the characters are now. Some are balanced on a knife edge and we will learn more. But really we know them by now.

A prime example 'in story' is Jamie cutting-off Tyrion's my dad hates me speech with 'What do you want?'. In an earlier episode we would have got the whole speech to better help understand Tyrion's psyche. But we have been there done that - don't need to hear that again. That's not to say there is nothing else to learn about these characters, there will be, but really, it's been 6 years (many more in the books) - now let's get the team together and go kill some undead.  

 

If you feel like you know the characters by now, then that may be the source of our different views as I don’t feel like I know the characters at all which I summarized only partially in the OP. For entirely too many of them, I’m slung back and forth from episode to episode in regards to what they’re thinking, feeling and what they want. For many but not all of the characters, it feels like each writer/director has a different interpretation which may be contradicted by the next episode’s writer/director.

If you're open to overlooking the more nuanced characterization to finally get an ending to it all and move on, I can definitely relate to any impatience to get an ending as it seems increasingly unlikely that the we'll ever see an ending for the books. I'd still prefer to not have characters which give me whiplash along the way, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, ramla said:

I believe the Dany jon tale will encompass a far lot more time and character development in the books then what the show has devoted to it. 100's of pages will be ste up to bring them together, not 3 episodes. The show makes it so wooden.

Great post!

1) You're probably right.  We'd probably have had two or three novels of setting it up, interwoven with new characters, subplots and a lot of travelling.

2) I say probably have had because it's highly unlikely we'll ever find out.  Dany and Jon won't meet up in TWOW (by the looks of it Dany will still be in Meereen by the end of the TWOW, maybe even only just getting back to Meereen after her Dothraki adventure).  Right now I'd say the odds of us getting TWOW are around 50%.  The chance of us getting ADOS are practically 0%.  The chance that the series would be completed in two more books is also practically 0%.

So basically, enjoy the wooden show.  It's all you've got.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Daske said:

And yet post Season 4, despite some dips, it has delivered some of the best received episodes so far. I would also argue that it did not hit the mega-time in popularity until after then also. And many fans are loving this season.

Wasn't Jaime just faffing about at Riverrun last we saw him the books? And once beloved Tyrion had somehow become a rapist and had just somehow finished his never-ending boring self-pitying bender. Is that character development? I don't know. But he sure wasn't as fun to read about.

But anyway, you have to start winding up somewhere, and spend time on things that actually mean something to the over-arching story. We are 65 episodes down and have 9 episodes to go (if my maths is right). I enjoy good character development as much as anyone, but we've had 50 hours of it with the odd battle thrown in to break things up! 6 years! at some point the story has to end, and they need to start concentrating on that. Which they have done - hence the pacing, because they know they won't be able to wrap it all up otherwise. Do you really want to fill out the last 9 episodes with nothing but soul-searching conversations, nothing resolved and then finish on a Sopranos ending? Or Battlestar Galactica for that matter. Even GRRM said he doesn't want to 'do a Lost'. He knows things need to be wrapped up correctly story-wise (although I don't think we will ever see it from him).

At this point what does character development even mean? All the basic character traits are now well established. If you want more, then isn't the story and drama that comes with it delivering that - Sansa trying to grow up? Arya trying to grow up? Home truths between Jaime and Tyrion? Bronn's heroism that we hadn't really seen before? Jaime's heroism for that matter? Jon bonding with Drogon? Dany and Jon warming to each other? Dany greying her principles? Tyrion questioning his moral position? Sam deciding he wants to be someone? Jorah fulfilling his promise? The Hound finding meaning to his life? And so on... There's still stuff in there between the battle scenes imo.

 

Let's be fair here.  He had pulled himself out of that pity party by the end and had joined Ben.  Must've been all that pig riding and Penny interaction we all loved reading about......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

1) You're probably right.  We'd probably have had two or three novels of setting it up, interwoven with new characters, subplots and a lot of travelling.

2) I say probably have had because it's highly unlikely we'll ever find out.  Dany and Jon won't meet up in TWOW (by the looks of it Dany will still be in Meereen by the end of the TWOW, maybe even only just getting back to Meereen after her Dothraki adventure).  Right now I'd say the odds of us getting TWOW are around 50%.  The chance of us getting ADOS are practically 0%.  The chance that the series would be completed in two more books is also practically 0%.

So basically, enjoy the wooden show.  It's all you've got.

LOL Well, that could end up very true. On the other hand,

Spoiler

Victarion ends up in seige of Meeren, depending on when this takes place in the TWOW...

Then, its possible she at least sails for westeros, in TWOW. But, you have the whole Aegon situation as well. So you're assessment may be correct.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Daske said:

And yet post Season 4, despite some dips, it has delivered some of the best received episodes so far. I would also argue that it did not hit the mega-time in popularity until after then also. And many fans are loving this season.

Wasn't Jaime just faffing about at Riverrun last we saw him the books? And once beloved Tyrion had somehow become a rapist and had just somehow finished his never-ending boring self-pitying bender. Is that character development? I don't know. But he sure wasn't as fun to read about.

But anyway, you have to start winding up somewhere, and spend time on things that actually mean something to the over-arching story. We are 65 episodes down and have 9 episodes to go (if my maths is right). I enjoy good character development as much as anyone, but we've had 50 hours of it with the odd battle thrown in to break things up! 6 years! at some point the story has to end, and they need to start concentrating on that. Which they have done - hence the pacing, because they know they won't be able to wrap it all up otherwise. Do you really want to fill out the last 9 episodes with nothing but soul-searching conversations, nothing resolved and then finish on a Sopranos ending? Or Battlestar Galactica for that matter. Even GRRM said he doesn't want to 'do a Lost'. He knows things need to be wrapped up correctly story-wise (although I don't think we will ever see it from him).

At this point what does character development even mean? All the basic character traits are now well established. If you want more, then isn't the story and drama that comes with it delivering that - Sansa trying to grow up? Arya trying to grow up? Home truths between Jaime and Tyrion? Bronn's heroism that we hadn't really seen before? Jaime's heroism for that matter? Jon bonding with Drogon? Dany and Jon warming to each other? Dany greying her principles? Tyrion questioning his moral position? Sam deciding he wants to be someone? Jorah fulfilling his promise? The Hound finding meaning to his life? And so on... There's still stuff in there between the battle scenes imo.

 

People like a spectacle  what can I tell you!? Lol Also, season 4 was bound to pick up a massive amount of fans because the "Red Wedding" happened the season b4. It's like one of the biggest moments in television history. That’s not to say the quality of writing  got better. It just got more popular.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

1) You're probably right.  We'd probably have had two or three novels of setting it up, interwoven with new characters, subplots and a lot of travelling.

2) I say probably have had because it's highly unlikely we'll ever find out.  Dany and Jon won't meet up in TWOW (by the looks of it Dany will still be in Meereen by the end of the TWOW, maybe even only just getting back to Meereen after her Dothraki adventure).  Right now I'd say the odds of us getting TWOW are around 50%.  The chance of us getting ADOS are practically 0%.  The chance that the series would be completed in two more books is also practically 0%.

So basically, enjoy the wooden show.  It's all you've got.

 

The show probably would have done better to get Dany to Westeros last year in the 9th episode maybe, to give a little more context for the Jon/Dany relationship, it's happeneing IMO very awkwardly on the show and quickly.  But then Khal Drogo happened over the course of maybe the first 3 or 4? episodes between their meeting/marriage/sun and stars.  Thus, it must be the writing that makes it less believable because I don't think many had trouble seeing the development of her relationship with Drogo on the show.

 

I agree.  I'd put Winds at about 80%, though, it will be just like Feast, a random assembly of whatever chapters are finished.  But, I don't see Dany getting to Westeros, until best case, the very end of the book.  And I agree, Jon and Dany will need an entire book to set the stage for some type of romantic relationship, so that would have to occur in the 7th book that will not be written, and resolved in the 8th book that will not be written.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

 

I agree.  I'd put Winds at about 80%, though, it will be just like Feast, a random assembly of whatever chapters are finished.  But, I don't see Dany getting to Westeros, until best case, the very end of the book.  And I agree, Jon and Dany will need an entire book to set the stage for some type of romantic relationship, so that would have to occur in the 7th book that will not be written, and resolved in the 8th book that will not be written.

 

LOL

Cmon man, believe in something!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...