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Benjen = Night's King


greywindsrage

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39 minutes ago, Red Man Racey said:

It's not a position or anything of the sort. It's the name that people attributed to a man, the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, who went rogue and styled himself king and committed horrible atrocities, presumably because of his association with a female who may have been a female Other. In the stories that are told of this event people refer to that man as the Night King. He was not an Other. He was a man. I can only assume that you mean the Great Other and are asking if that is a position held by a specific Other. Nobody knows what the Great Other is or if it is even real. There is most likely some sort of governing power behind the Others, it is probably what Bran saw when he turned his eyes to the far north in his dream. But what that power is remains unknown.

Also, @kissdbyfire, do you have to a link to that manuscript refuting the Benjen = CH possibility? I haven't seen that one yet, I didn't know there was proof against this theory.

Here:

https://m.imgur.com/FfI1goA

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4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm confused... You agree but at the same time you're asking whether it's possible for the "original" Night's King was a "position held by a specific Other". :dunno:

 

I was trying to obtain clarification on the OP, because it was unclear if s/he was saying that Benjen was like the NK or if s/he thought the NK was like a leadership position that Benjen somehow took. I don't think either are true.

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4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Probably we'll see all the heroes back again - the critical thing might be who gets to play which role.

The Night's King wasn't king of the Others, he was king of the Wall - so we've got just two candidates for that: Stannis with pale Melisandre at his side, and Jon with pale Val. One is fire, one is ice (or fire and ice) - it's very confusing.

But Benjen won't be Night's King - I think his role will be as mentor to Jon entering the world of the ice wights.

2

 

My response to the OP was not a serious one.  The Night's King is a character out of legends eight thousand years old.  He exists as part of GRRM's world building and depth of story telling.  He and the other legendary figures from the Age of Heroes won't be back.

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14 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

We know CH is not Benjen as per that photo of the manuscript (I think?) with a big fat NO from Martin to his editor who was asking about CH - "Benjen?"

I think it more likely that Benjen has taken up a second life as Mormont's Raven.

 

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5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think it more likely that Benjen has taken up a second life as Mormont's Raven.

 

Interesting! Will read the link later when I have a mo. Gotta say though, right now I'm firmly on the Benjen bacon camp! :D

 

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1 hour ago, White Ravens said:

 

My response to the OP was not a serious one.  The Night's King is a character out of legends eight thousand years old.  He exists as part of GRRM's world building and depth of story telling.  He and the other legendary figures from the Age of Heroes won't be back.

But since history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging, and what has happened before will perforce happen again, as Archmaester Rigney once wrote, we should see echoes of the legends from the past in the characters and events in the tale being being told today. 

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44 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But since history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging, and what has happened before will perforce happen again, as Archmaester Rigney once wrote, we should see echoes of the legends from the past in the characters and events in tale being being told today. 

:agree:

And we do, actually... Stannis/NK; Manderly/Rat Cook, etc. Not Benjen, though. I really like the idea of Ben living a second life in Mormont's raven, and can't wait to read the link @LynnS posted. :)

 

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But since history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging, and what has happened before will perforce happen again, as Archmaester Rigney once wrote, we should see echoes of the legends from the past in the characters and events in tale being being told today. 

I agree. It seems that all of the World building we have been given, and the World book itself, is there to give us clues to what is going to happen in the current or near future of the main series. It is fun to decode, though. 

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

:agree:

And we do, actually... Stannis/NK; Manderly/Rat Cook, etc. Not Benjen, though. I really like the idea of Ben living a second life in Mormont's raven, and can't wait to read the link @LynnS posted. :)

 

It's just a few comments regarding Mance's raven-winged helm and Mormont's Raven imitating the helm when Mormont is questioning Craster about Benjen and Mance.  Also Craster's amusement with the bird's antics.  It wouldn't surprise me if Benjen had a touch of the old magic and went to the Wall for that reason.  Given the speculation that Lyanna and perhaps Ned had some talents along the greenblood line.  Benjen was sent to spy on Mance after all.  So if he was using the bird; he may have had his wings clipped.   Benjen was first ranger and may have had a few talents the rest did not.   I'm guessing that Benjen is more aptly called Mormont's Raven and now the raven should be called Uncle Benjen.  :D

Here's a curious thing about Mance Rayder's raven winged-helm and Mormont's Raven:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon II

A few tents were still standing on the far side of the camp, and it was there they found Mance Rayder. Beneath his slashed cloak of black wool and red silk he wore black ringmail and shaggy fur breeches, and on his head was a great bronze-and-iron helm with raven wings at either temple. Jarl was with him, and Harma the Dogshead; Styr as well, and Varamyr Sixskins with his wolves and his shadowcat.

A Clash of Kings - Jon III
"You are few here, and isolated," Mormont said. "If you like, I'll detail some men to escort you south to the Wall."

The raven seemed to like the notion. "Wall," it screamed, spreading black wings like a high collar behind Mormont's head.

Their host gave a nasty smile, showing a mouthful of broken brown teeth. "And what would we do there, serve you at supper? We're free folk here. Craster serves no man."

It seems the raven has seen Mance Rayder's helm and knows something of Mance's purpose.  Craster is amused when the bird imitates the raven helm after Mormont offers to escort and protect the wildlings at the Wall.  No doubt Craster is familiar with the helm and Mance's purpose as well.  This suggest that the bird has been used for spying and retains memories of what it has seen.   So perhaps we are looking at Uncle Benjen after all.
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

"I do," said Lord Commander Mormont. "The cold winds are rising, Snow. Beyond the Wall, the shadows lengthen. Cotter Pyke writes of vast herds of elk, streaming south and east toward the sea, and mammoths as well. He says one of his men discovered huge, misshapen footprints not three leagues from Eastwatch. Rangers from the Shadow Tower have found whole villages abandoned, and at night Ser Denys says they see fires in the mountains, huge blazes that burn from dusk till dawn. Quorin Halfhand took a captive in the depths of the Gorge, and the man swears that Mance Rayder is massing all his people in some new, secret stronghold he's found, to what end the gods only know. Do you think your uncle Benjen was the only ranger we've lost this past year?"

"Ben Jen," the raven squawked, bobbing its head, bits of egg dribbling from its beak. "Ben Jen. Ben Jen."

 

This is the only time the bird repeats another name besides Jon Snow, making it into two separate names.

 

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's just a few comments regarding Mance's raven-winged helm and Mormont's Raven imitating the helm when Mormont is questioning Craster about Benjen and Mance.  Also Craster's amusement with the bird's antics.  It wouldn't surprise me if Benjen had a touch of the old magic and went to the Wall for that reason.  Given the speculation that Lyanna and perhaps Ned had some talents along the greenblood line.  Benjen was sent to spy on Mance after all.  So if he was using the bird; he may have had his wings clipped.   Benjen was first ranger and may have had a few talents the rest did not.   I'm guessing that Benjen is more aptly called Mormont's Raven and now the raven should be called Uncle Benjen.  :D

Here's a curious thing about Mance Rayder's raven winged-helm and Mormont's Raven:

It seems the raven has seen Mance Rayder's helm and knows something of Mance's purpose.  Craster is amused when the bird imitates the raven helm after Mormont offers to escort and protect the wildlings at the Wall.  No doubt Craster is familiar with the helm and Mance's purpose as well.  This suggest that the bird has been used for spying and retains memories of what it has seen.   So perhaps we are looking at Uncle Benjen after all.
 

This is the only time the bird repeats another name besides Jon Snow, making it into two separate names.

 

Very interesting, I like it! :thumbsup:

And the bold, I can't believe I didn't remember that! 

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7 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think it more likely that Benjen has taken up a second life as Mormont's Raven.

Very cool idea. My only issue is why was it Mormonts Raven? Wouldn't it have gone with Benjen when he went north? For that matter do we know that it didn't, do we actually see the Raven on page for a period of time after he left (before he died under this theory)? 

I'm not completely convinced but very cool idea.

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29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Very interesting, I like it! :thumbsup:

And the bold, I can't believe I didn't remember that! 

There is a lot of stuff I don't remember.  Especially when stuff that has connecting tissue is found in different books.

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29 minutes ago, Makk said:

Very cool idea. My only issue is why was it Mormonts Raven? Wouldn't it have gone with Benjen when he went north? For that matter do we know that it didn't, do we actually see the Raven on page for a period of time after he left (before he died under this theory)? 

I'm not completely convinced but very cool idea.

If he's a skinchanger, he could use any raven or several.  Keeping an eye on what's going on at the Wall as well as scouting out Mance and the wildlings.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

Jon's eyes widened in disbelief. "That can't be so."

"It was. When your father learned the king was coming, he sent word to his brother Benjen on the Wall, so he might come down for the feast. There is more commerce between the black brothers and the free folk than you know, and soon enough word came to my ears as well. It was too choice a chance to resist. Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he'd met briefly years before. I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well. He was First Ranger by then, and the bane of all my people. So I saddled my fleetest horse, and rode."

 

As First Ranger, Benjen would spend most of his time with Mormont and the senior men as well as dine at Mormont's table.  So it's not surprising that the bird would be in the same habit. 

It's also the raven that tells Jon how to dispatch Othor; something that perhaps Benjen would know about wights and something that is beyond the scope of a raven's normal cognitive abilities.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

… and saw Lord Mormont, naked and groggy from sleep, standing in the doorway with an oil lamp in hand. Gnawed and fingerless, the arm thrashed on the floor, wriggling toward him.

Jon tried to shout, but his voice was gone. Staggering to his feet, he kicked the arm away and snatched the lamp from the Old Bear's fingers. The flame flickered and almost died. "Burn!" the raven cawed. "Burn, burn, burn!"

 

In the above passage, the bird is not mimicking or repeating words previously spoken by anyone else in the room.

 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Good stuff, @LynnS! And it doesn't preclude Benjen bacon, a bonus. :D

How do you think he died?

I don't have a clue.  All we have is Jon's vision of Benjen dead in the snow.  And that one is somewhat flimsy. Benjen does promise to return to Jon before his next name day and I wouldn't put it past GRRM to return him in the form of a raven.

On another note, similarities can be drawn between Coldhands and Lord Commanders of the Watch:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran I

The ranger killed a pig. Coldhands stood beside the door, a raven on his arm, both staring at the fire. Reflections from the flames glittered off four black eyes. He does not eat, Bran remembered, and he fears the flames.

 

There is also something curious about Mormont's Raven here:

"Burn!" the raven cawed. "Burn, burn, burn!"

Cawing is a typical alarm call for ravens and crows but it doesn't sound like spoken language.  Is Jon perhaps hearing 'raven speech' in the manner of Coldhands?

 

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23 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't have a clue.  All we have is Jon's vision of Benjen dead in the snow.  And that one is somewhat flimsy. Benjen does promise to return to Jon before his next name day and I wouldn't put it past GRRM to return him in the form of a raven.

Yes! 

Here it is:

A Game of Thrones - Jon III 

Jon rose at dawn the next day to watch his uncle leave. One of his rangers, a big ugly man, sang a bawdy song as he saddled his garron, his breath steaming in the cold morning air. Ben Stark smiled at that, but he had no smile for his nephew. "How often must I tell you no, Jon? We'll speak when I return."

As he watched his uncle lead his horse into the tunnel, Jon had remembered the things that Tyrion Lannister told him on the kingsroad, and in his mind's eye he saw Ben Stark lying dead, his blood red on the snow. The thought made him sick. What was he becoming? Afterward he sought out Ghost in the loneliness of his cell, and buried his face in his thick white fur. 

If he must be alone, he would make solitude his armor. Castle Black had no godswood, only a small sept and a drunken septon, but Jon could not find it in him to pray to any gods, old or new. If they were real, he thought, they were as cruel and implacable as winter.

I've thought for a long time that Ben is dead. And then I read a great essay by @sweetsunray and that kinda sealed the deal for me. I had the page open but never got around to bookmarking it - it was right there! - and now I lost it. But perhaps the author will link it here? :)

 

23 minutes ago, LynnS said:

On another note, similarities can be drawn between Coldhands and Lord Commanders of the Watch:

There is also something curious about Mormont's Raven here:

"Burn!" the raven cawed. "Burn, burn, burn!"

Cawing is a typical alarm call for ravens and crows but it doesn't sound like spoken language.  Is Jon perhaps hearing 'raven speech' in the manner of Coldhands?

 

Great catch. I really like the idea that CH is one of the Raven's Teeth that went to the Wall w/ Bloodraven. And I'm really, really curious to learn what's the deal w/ CH. Did the wightification process didn't take in the first place, maybe because of some trait of his? Or was he fully wightified, and then de-wightified? 

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33 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't have a clue.  All we have is Jon's vision of Benjen dead in the snow.  And that one is somewhat flimsy. Benjen does promise to return to Jon before his next name day and I wouldn't put it past GRRM to return him in the form of a raven.

On another note, similarities can be drawn between Coldhands and Lord Commanders of the Watch:

There is also something curious about Mormont's Raven here:

"Burn!" the raven cawed. "Burn, burn, burn!"

Cawing is a typical alarm call for ravens and crows but it doesn't sound like spoken language.  Is Jon perhaps hearing 'raven speech' in the manner of Coldhands?

 

That's a very interesting thought! I like the idea that Jon understands raven speach... However Small Paul really wanted to have Mormont's talking bird, and others seem to understand the words the raven says as well,  so the raven quite obviously uses human words all the time, and I find it unlikely that it would suddenly speak 'raven', without any witnesses (except Mormont, but he's dead, so he can't confirm that only Jon heard actual words). GRRM goes to great lengths to make it clear that Mormont's raven is the only raven that doesn't simply repeat words, and if seems a bit far fetched to suddenly have him NOT do that at a crucial moment. 

 

About Mance's raven helm: I think that this is a hint he's Bloodraven's son, not a connection to Benjen being Mormont's raven. In this light it would be more likely that Mance is a warg, and that he's the one who's warged Mormont's raven... 

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