Benjen = Night's King

[sweetsunray]

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I've thought for a long time that Ben is dead. And then I read a great essay by @sweetsunray and that kinda sealed the deal for me. I had the page open but never got around to bookmarking it - it was right there! - and now I lost it. But perhaps the author will link it here?

That would be Craster's Black Blooded Curse:

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2016/08/30/crasters-black-blooded-curse/

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@sweetsunray

Great catch. I really like the idea that CH is one of the Raven's Teeth that went to the Wall w/ Bloodraven. And I'm really, really curious to learn what's the deal w/ CH. Did the wightification process didn't take in the first place, maybe because of some trait of his? Or was he fully wightified, and then de-wightified? 

I have the sense that CH is far older than we know because of his association with the Black Gate and the older oath of the NW.  That along with ritual prayer in an unknown language he speaks over the Elk.  I suspect he was a green man or is a green man as Jojen suspects. We don't know much about them yet except that there was an exchange of faces on the God's Eye. 

It calls to mind the device on the shield of the Knight of the Laughing Tree:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face."

 

Along those lines, Mormont's face is taken by the raven:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

Jon pissed in darkness, filling his chamber pot as the Old Bear's raven muttered complaints. The wolf dreams had been growing stronger, and he found himself remembering them even when awake. Ghost knows that Grey Wind is dead. Robb had died at the Twins, betrayed by men he'd believed his friends, and his wolf had perished with him. Bran and Rickon had been murdered too, beheaded at the behest of Theon Greyjoy, who had once been their lord father's ward … but if dreams did not lie, their direwolves had escaped. At Queenscrown, one had come out of the darkness to save Jon's life. Summer, it had to be. His fur was grey, and Shaggydog is black. He wondered if some part of his dead brothers lived on inside their wolves.

 

He filled his basin from the flagon of water beside his bed, washed his face and hands, donned a clean set of black woolens, laced up a black leather jerkin, and pulled on a pair of well-worn boots. Mormont's raven watched with shrewd black eyes, then fluttered to the window. "Do you take me for your thrall?" When Jon folded back the window with its thick diamond-shaped panes of yellow glass, the chill of the morning hit him in the face. He took a breath to clear away the cobwebs of the night as the raven flapped away. That bird is too clever by half. It had been the Old Bear's companion for long years, but that had not stopped it from eating Mormont's face once he died.

 

Preceded by the question of what part of his dead brothers lived on inside their wolves which is germaine to the question we entertain about the bird.

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

That's a very interesting thought! I like the idea that Jon understands raven speach... However Small Paul really wanted to have Mormont's talking bird, and others seem to understand the words the raven says as well,  so the raven quite obviously uses human words all the time, and I find it unlikely that it would suddenly speak 'raven', without any witnesses (except Mormont, but he's dead, so he can't confirm that only Jon heard actual words). GRRM goes to great lengths to make it clear that Mormont's raven is the only raven that doesn't simply repeat words, and if seems a bit far fetched to suddenly have him NOT do that at a crucial moment. 

I agree that we know for a fact that Mormont's raven speaks 'human', there are indeed several characters as witnesses. But the fact that the raven speaks human doesn't mean s/he doesn't speak raven as well. As a matter of fact, it's a given: Mormont's raven does speak raven. So in the scene we're talking about the raven may have spoken in raven and Jon understood. 

14 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

About Mance's raven helm: I think that this is a hint he's Bloodraven's son, not a connection to Benjen being Mormont's raven. In this light it would be more likely that Mance is a warg, and that he's the one who's warged Mormont's raven... 

But there's nothing in the text that suggests or hints at Mance being a skinchanger. And he is a character we spend some time with. Not only that, but it seems being a skinchanger is not that big of a deal north of the Wall. We meet several, and apart from Varamyr they're all well integrated into the free folk culture. 

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

That's a very interesting thought! I like the idea that Jon understands raven speach... However Small Paul really wanted to have Mormont's talking bird, and others seem to understand the words the raven says as well,  so the raven quite obviously uses human words all the time, and I find it unlikely that it would suddenly speak 'raven', without any witnesses (except Mormont, but he's dead, so he can't confirm that only Jon heard actual words). GRRM goes to great lengths to make it clear that Mormont's raven is the only raven that doesn't simply repeat words, and if seems a bit far fetched to suddenly have him NOT do that at a crucial moment. 

 

About Mance's raven helm: I think that this is a hint he's Bloodraven's son, not a connection to Benjen being Mormont's raven. In this light it would be more likely that Mance is a warg, and that he's the one who's warged Mormont's raven... 

Well, the bird does repeat words spoken by others all the time.  But the bird is peculiar and in the case of burn, burn, burn... he's not repeating something that was previously spoken by Jon; but seemingly instructing Jon to burn the wight.  Specifically, the bird is jolted out sleep and cawing at Jon in alarm.  So I question Martin's choice of words when he says the bird was cawing and Jon heard burn, burn, burn.  In this one case, it may be that Jon latent abilities have surfaced.    

I do entertain the idea that Mance is Bloodraven's get.  Why else would a wildling boy to taken in a raid and raised at the Wall. 

In the case of the Raven-Helm; the notion of dark wings; dark words comes to mind as well.  It's the way Mormont's Raven mimics the raven-helm when Mormont suggest that Craster go with them to the Wall for safety that suggests the bird has some memory of seeing Mance's raven-helm since getting past the Wall is Mance's purpose as well.  Something the Craster finds amusing.  

[kissdbyfire]

 @sweetsunray!

@LynnS, very good point about the prayer in a diff language. I'd forgotten that too.

As to CH being a Raven's Teeth, well, I have zero evidence for it - maybe b/c there is none?  - I just really liked the idea... I've always wanted to learn more about them.

 

[LynnS]

21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 @sweetsunray!

@LynnS, very good point about the prayer in a diff language. I'd forgotten that too.

As to CH being a Raven's Teeth, well, I have zero evidence for it - maybe b/c there is none?  - I just really liked the idea... I've always wanted to learn more about them.

 

Well CH has quite a few oddities going on.  He knows something about the magic of the Wall and he's connected to the Black Gate and Night Fort in some way.  He's probably the only one who can find the gate.  He also has a bit of a faceless man thing going when he extracts an oath from Sam for the 'life' he owes Coldhands.  That would be three lives: Gilly, Sam and Monster.  Sam is bound with strange sorceries never to speak of Bran after making the oath to Jojen (a greendreamer), Bran (a greenseer in waiting) and Coldhands (a possible green man).

Words have power as Mel tells us:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word.

The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside their ears. The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips. The ruby on the wildling's wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and shadow around him writhed and faded.

 

Sam's ear worm:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell II

"Jon would never. Lord Snow did. Sometimes there is no happy choice, Sam, only one less grievous than the others."No happy choice. Sam thought of all the trials that he and Gilly suffered, Craster's Keep and the death of the Old Bear, snow and ice and freezing winds, days and days and days of walking, the wights at Whitetree, Coldhands and the tree of ravens, the Wall, the Wall, the Wall, the Black Gate beneath the earth. What had it all been for? No happy choices and no happy endings.

 

 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree that we know for a fact that Mormont's raven speaks 'human', there are indeed several characters as witnesses. But the fact that the raven speaks human doesn't mean s/he doesn't speak raven as well. As a matter of fact, it's a given: Mormont's raven does speak raven. So in the scene we're talking about the raven may have spoken in raven and Jon understood. 

Yeah I understand, I just think that the hint seems too subtle to have meaning, especially since Mormont didn't survive to tell Jon he didn't hear the bird say anything. 

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But there's nothing in the text that suggests or hints at Mance being a skinchanger. And he is a character we spend some time with. Not only that, but it seems being a skinchanger is not that big of a deal north of the Wall. We meet several, and apart from Varamyr they're all well integrated into the free folk culture. 

I also have my doubts about him being a skinchanger to be fair, although I do think he's Bloodraven's son,  so that would make skinchanger genes a possibility. I don't know why he'd how that though. 

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well, the bird does repeat words spoken by others all the time.  But the bird is peculiar and in the case of burn, burn, burn... he's not repeating something that was previously spoken by Jon; but seemingly instructing Jon to burn the wight.  Specifically, the bird is jolted out sleep and cawing at Jon in alarm.  So I question Martin's choice of words when he says the bird was cawing and Jon heard burn, burn, burn.  In this one case, it may be that Jon latent abilities have surfaced.    

I see your point, although the bird also says random things at other times, or a row of different words... I can’t recall if this is observed by anyone else than Jon though... I think Sam does observe it in his POV... But again, not sure. 

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I do entertain the idea that Mance is Bloodraven's get.  Why else would a wildling boy to taken in a raid and raised at the Wall. 

Not to mention his black and red cloak... In fairly certain he is BR's... Which doos make me wonder if he inherited done of daddy's gifts.

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

In the case of the Raven-Helm; the notion of dark wings; dark words comes to mind as well.  It's the way Mormont's Raven mimics the raven-helm when Mormont suggest that Craster go with them to the Wall for safety that suggests the bird has some memory of seeing Mance's raven-helm since getting past the Wall is Mance's purpose as well.  Something the Craster finds amusing.  

Hmm not sure about the raven imitating the raven helm... A ravenwing collar seems different than a helmet. Perhaps it's another BR hint, suggesting Mormont's actions are manipulated (not in a warg way) by BR. As in that The great ranging was orchestrated by BR (by way of sending other and whatshisname) as wights.

[Jon Fossoway]

My guess is that Benjen's party was taken slowly. Jafer appeared hacked by an axe; Othor (his fellow corpse companion) is known to carry an axe, so apparently Jafer was killed by a living or dead Othor. Most of all, Benjen hasn't showed up yet. A reasonable Benjen would have turned back to the Wall. If he was attacked by wights there's no reason for him to linger and not go back to warn his fellow brothers. So my assumption is that he was killed and wighted (but for some reason retained in the far north) or just killed, OR, he fled and was captured by an unknown clan of wildlings. Since the wildlings haven't spoke about Benjen (a reknowned ranger and Stark, above all) when a bunch of them were employed by the Night's Watch, I've reason to think he's just dead or wighted. No Night's King at all. I don't buy the super Night's Watch team plotting in the far north. That's just silly.

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I see your point, although the bird also says random things at other times, or a row of different words... I can’t recall if this is observed by anyone else than Jon though... I think Sam does observe it in his POV... But again, not sure. 

I'm not sure that the bird is only saying random words. 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn," the bird said, and, "King," and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow." That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

 

Quite often he puts emphasis on words spoken by others.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon II

Those are not sheep bones, though. Nor is that a sheep's skull in the ashes.

"An old tree." Mormont sat his horse, frowning. "Old," his raven agreed from his shoulder. "Old, old, old.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I see your point, although the bird also says random things at other times, or a row of different words... I can’t recall if this is observed by anyone else than Jon though... I think Sam does observe it in his POV... But again, not sure.

 I'm not sure that Mormont would need to comment on the bird cawing or whether Jon would think it out of the ordinary that he heard the bird repeating the words burn,burn,burn.  I think it's part of Martin's subtlety that we wouldn't notice anything out of the ordinary with the bird repeating words it hears.  We've been conditioned not to notice.    The bird repeats words in the form of ear worms.

 

[sweetsunray]

34 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

My guess is that Benjen's party was taken slowly. Jafer appeared hacked by an axe; Othor (his fellow corpse companion) is known to carry an axe, so apparently Jafer was killed by a living or dead Othor.

The problem is that wights don't kill people with weapons, but with their bare hands, smothering them or trying to disembowel them with their hands. The only time we've actually hae a witness account of a wight grabbing a weapon is a headless one, accidentally gripping a dagger in its sheath and then plant it in a belly.

And there's no reason to believe that a living Othor would have hacked into Jafer.

Meanwhile we have a description of his head nearly being hacked off. We know from Theon that beheading a man with an axe is not an easy thing to do, physically, not even when the man's held down to be beheaded. Now imagine doing that with a man standing, facing you or fighting you. So, Jafer was taken by surprise from behind and above, possibly only looking up and sideways at the last moment the axe fell. Except if a wight had snuck on him from behind, the wight wouldn't have been carrying an axe.

And then we have Craster needing a new axe, because the previous one lost its bite (that is got dull).

[White Ravens]

10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But since history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging, and what has happened before will perforce happen again, as Archmaester Rigney once wrote, we should see echoes of the legends from the past in the characters and events in the tale being being told today. 

 

I've never read the Wheel of Time books.  By reputation, they are quite good but I hope that GRRM isn't rehashing that series.  It was a nice clever thing GRRM did when he worked in a nod and a reference to Robert Jordan (James Rigney, Jr.) but that is all it was.  A nod and a reference. 
 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure that the bird is only saying random words. 

Quite often he puts emphasis on words spoken by others.

I didn't mean random in the sense that they don't mean anything, just that they're not always a repetition of something said before, and I think (although I'm not certain) that we get at least one occasion like that from another POV or where someone confirms it's not just Jon hearing the raven say something unusual. Maybe it was when Jon was chosen LC... of the corn, King, snow thing, or both... If all the occasions where the raven says something other than a repetition of a word in the sentence before are from Jon's POV, without others noticing it, I'd agree with you that it could be an indication that Jon understands raven speech, but only this sole example is too little to be convincing to me. 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

 I'm not sure that Mormont would need to comment on the bird cawing or whether Jon would think it out of the ordinary that he heard the bird repeating the words burn,burn,burn.  I think it's part of Martin's subtlety that we wouldn't notice anything out of the ordinary with the bird repeating words it hears.  We've been conditioned not to notice.    The bird repeats words in the form of ear worms.

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, White Ravens said:

 

I've never read the Wheel of Time books.  By reputation, they are quite good but I hope that GRRM isn't rehashing that series.  It was a nice clever thing GRRM did when he worked in a nod and a reference to Robert Jordan (James Rigney, Jr.) but that is all it was.  A nod and a reference. 
 

Or not...

Quote

"Have you ever seen the arms of House Toland of Ghost Hill?"

He had to think a moment. "A dragon eating its own tail?"

"The dragon is time. It has no beginning and no ending, so all things come round again. 

 

[greywindsrage]

On 8/15/2017 at 7:21 PM, Makk said:

I wish people would be clear what they mean when they refer to the Night's King. I feel you almost need to put in a disclaimer if you are actually talking about the book version of the Night's King rather than some unknown entity that may possibly be leading the others that we haven't seen.

It's difficult to see what Benjen could possibly have to do with the Night's King unless he returns to the wall with a pale woman and becomes commander. It is interesting however that the Night's King was the 13th commander, an (in)auspicious number. Numbers 999 and 1000 could arguably also be considered somewhat symbolic as well.

Sorry i was being clear . I'm wondering since the show revealed to us what exactly happens to Craster's babies if there really is a new Night's King that has yet to be revealed in the books. I always believed that it would remain a old children's story.  I've become even more curious about is going on with Benjen since GRRM told the editor's that he's not CH . It would be an interesting twist and I just wanted to each everyone's thoughts.

[greywindsrage]

On 8/15/2017 at 10:55 PM, White Ravens said:

Benjen is not Cold Hands.  Agreed.  As for the rest of your opening post it feels like you are posting out of boredom.  I mean it has been years that we've been waiting for Winds.  I get it.  In fact, it is the same boredom that has led to me replying.

In the books, the Night's King is a character from the Age of Heroes.  He is as much myth as he is fact and if he lived at all it was thousands of years ago.   If he is still alive and turns out to be Benjen that would definitely be a really big WTF.  But, as you say, he might not intend for us to find out about it. 

 

 

lol. I'll admit it's been awhile that I've posted in here and I did rush. However the idea just came to me when i reading and article about GOT theories. I am very anxious for WOW to come out and the show's fan fiction is really getting to me.

[White Ravens]

23 minutes ago, greywindsrage said:

lol. I'll admit it's been awhile that I've posted in here and I did rush. However the idea just came to me when i reading and article about GOT theories. I am very anxious for WOW to come out and the show's fan fiction is really getting to me.

Ya, we're all in this together as we wait for the opportunity to read Winds.  I don't often allow myself to think about waiting for another book after that. 

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

That would be Craster's Black Blooded Curse:

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2016/08/30/crasters-black-blooded-curse/

That's very interesting and a strong analysis in favor of Benjen bacon. The raven collar does suggest that the bird is protecting Mormont's neck and it also suggests that the bird knows more about Craster than is suspected.  So in that sense, Uncle Benjen may still be protecting his Lord Commander and favors the notion that Benjen could skinchange ravens and survives as Mormont's Raven.  The irony is that Mormont's is offering Craster protection; when it is actually Mormont who needs protection from Craster.  I can well believe that Craster engages in every form of abomination.

The notion that wights disembowel their victims struck another chord because of a discussion at TLH about Orell's eagle and whether Melisandre killed the bird or the bird ran into a fire ward at the Wall.

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

His last death had been by fire. I burned. At first, in his confusion, he thought some archer on the Wall had pierced him with a flaming arrow … but the fire had been inside him, consuming him. And the pain …

Varamyr had died nine times before. He had died once from a spear thrust, once with a bear's teeth in his throat, and once in a wash of blood as he brought forth a stillborn cub. He died his first death when he was only six, as his father's axe crashed through his skull. Even that had not been so agonizing as the fire in his guts, crackling along his wings, devouring him. When he tried to fly from it, his terror fanned the flames and made them burn hotter. One moment he had been soaring above the Wall, his eagle's eyes marking the movements of the men below. Then the flames had turned his heart into a blackened cinder and sent his spirit screaming back into his own skin, and for a little while he'd gone mad. Even the memory was enough to make him shudder.

 

@Voice

SweetSunray's observations concerning the manner in which wights kill lends strength to the argument that Melisandre is a wight and was responsible for killing Orell's eagle.

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/1556/wall-melisandre-orells-eagle

 

[Jon Fossoway]

12 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The problem is that wights don't kill people with weapons, but with their bare hands, smothering them or trying to disembowel them with their hands. The only time we've actually hae a witness account of a wight grabbing a weapon is a headless one, accidentally gripping a dagger in its sheath and then plant it in a belly.

And there's no reason to believe that a living Othor would have hacked into Jafer.

Meanwhile we have a description of his head nearly being hacked off. We know from Theon that beheading a man with an axe is not an easy thing to do, physically, not even when the man's held down to be beheaded. Now imagine doing that with a man standing, facing you or fighting you. So, Jafer was taken by surprise from behind and above, possibly only looking up and sideways at the last moment the axe fell. Except if a wight had snuck on him from behind, the wight wouldn't have been carrying an axe.

And then we have Craster needing a new axe, because the previous one lost its bite (that is got dull).

Interesting. So you slip the idea that Craster knows what happened to Benjen? Was Craster informing, somehow, the Others about the Night's Watch movement in the region?

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Interesting. So you slip the idea that Craster knows what happened to Benjen? Was Craster informing, somehow, the Others about the Night's Watch movement in the region?

Not sure about Craster being able to inform on the Others.

But I do think he killed Jafer and is directly responsible for getting others killed. The description of the neck wound suggest Jafer was killed while spying on something, trying to keep low. Maybe Craster had a son and Jafer followed him, and Craster came upon him afterwards, just as Jafer witnessed Others taking the child. Craster either pretends to know nothing of Jafer when the rest of the rangers aks after him, or returned in a faked panic: anyway, they left and went looking for Jafer. Othor's wounds were frontal and more typical for someone taking wounds while standing. That seemed a fight. Craster is not big, but the man is strong and very quick.

Was Benjen with them? I don't know. Benjen made markings that are way off from Craster's and there were no other markings there. Possibly the rangers may have split off. Or something happened in that area and Jafer and Othor ran and sheltered with Craster, which ended up being the wrong call. So, in the end, yes, I do think Craster knows Benjen's fate. 

Beyond that the man is mighty irritated with the NW searching for their missing brothers and snooping at his place. He keeps repeating they should just stay south. He may actually have gotten Jafer and Othor closer to the Wall and left them as some attempt to signal: this is what happens with your rangers north of the wall, so stop sending out men.

Anyhow, the above is very speculative. The only thing I'm convinced of is that Jafer and Othor were killed by a living person who was their enemy,, not by a wight nor an Other; that an axe was used; that Craster knows more than he admits to Jeor, and that you shouldn't be eating his bacon or sausages (long pork). And the allusions about Benjen lean heavily on him being dead.

[Jon Fossoway]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Not sure about Craster being able to inform on the Others.

But I do think he killed Jafer and is directly responsible for getting others killed. The description of the neck wound suggest Jafer was killed while spying on something, trying to keep low. Maybe Craster had a son and Jafer followed him, and Craster came upon him afterwards, just as Jafer witnessed Others taking the child. Craster either pretends to know nothing of Jafer when the rest of the rangers aks after him, or returned in a faked panic: anyway, they left and went looking for Jafer. Othor's wounds were frontal and more typical for someone taking wounds while standing. That seemed a fight. Craster is not big, but the man is strong and very quick.

Was Benjen with them? I don't know. Benjen made markings that are way off from Craster's and there were no other markings there. Possibly the rangers may have split off. Or something happened in that area and Jafer and Othor ran and sheltered with Craster, which ended up being the wrong call. So, in the end, yes, I do think Craster knows Benjen's fate. 

Beyond that the man is mighty irritated with the NW searching for their missing brothers and snooping at his place. He keeps repeating they should just stay south. He may actually have gotten Jafer and Othor closer to the Wall and left them as some attempt to signal: this is what happens with your rangers north of the wall, so stop sending out men.

Anyhow, the above is very speculative. The only thing I'm convinced of is that Jafer and Othor were killed by a living person who was their enemy,, not by a wight nor an Other; that an axe was used; that Craster knows more than he admits to Jeor, and that you shouldn't be eating his bacon or sausages (long pork). And the allusions about Benjen lean heavily on him being dead.

Now you're being unfair. Craster gives his sons to the Others out of a long established ritual but you pose that he can't communicate somehow with them but he might have a son in hiding. You're just quashing my arguments in the most crude manner.