The truth about Ashara Dayne's suicide

[Frey Kings]

She was best friends with Elia. Her brother was the same with Rhaegar. 

I think Ashara's suicide was over guilt. She told Ned Stark where to find Lyanna, and when he returned with Dawn she felt she was responsible for her brother's death.

And finally, What baby?

Barristan Selmy is the only one that bought up that Ashara commited suicide becauce of a stillborn and the culprit? One of the Starks. No other mention by another character. A gorgeous noble woman that every man wanted? Maybe Barristan is still hurting after all these years.

 

Maybe Ned Dayne was right when talking to Arya "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"

 

Hearing all the horrors year around and then having it come to your front step as verified proof could make someone jump off a cliff.

 

So much for being a second son with no aspirations to  ever rule and  be free to follow your heart.

[Kienn]

2 hours ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

the culprit? One of the Starks.

 

[TMIFairy]

26 minutes ago, Kienn said:

 

Ned ripped Jon - her son by Brandon - from her arms. That's why she killed herself.

[Ser Petyr Parker]

None of the theories for Ashara Dayne's suicide add up for me. She felt guilty? She lost a child? Boo hoo. People's kids die all the time in Westeros, and we're supposed to believe she killed herself because her baby was taken away? People are also forced to pick sides all the time in Westeros, especially women when they're married into other houses and expected to be loyal to their husband's family.

No doubt either of these things might make a certain kind of person kill themselves, but why would we think Ashara was that kind of person?

[Coolbeard the Exile]

I think she is alive and is Septa Lemore and she is Jons mom.

[devilish]

What happened at the tower of joy is shrouded in mystery. However if we take Ned + what happened in the tower of joy in account then we can make some sound educated guesses

So lets focus on Ned first
a-    Ned is described as an introvert who hates politics
b-    He really loves and trust Robert. 

So what could possibly force Ned to go into enemy territory with a small group of soldiers who were hardly great swordsmen themselves? Shouldn’t he first ask permission to the king first? Surely Robert would never send his most trusted friend to Dorne without solid backup.

Taking those points into account we can presume that

a-    Someone in Ned’s inner circle knew that Lyanna was at the tower of joy 
b-    That person knew that Ned would be better off going there without Robert’s knowledge and had some compelling arguments in favour of that
c-    That person was trustworthy enough for Ned to throw caution + loyalty to the wind and go into enemy territory without first advising his king.
d-    That person clearly didn’t trust the king to act in a dignified way.

Point A&B is clearly classified information that very few people would have especially since Tywin made sure that most of these gentlemen/ladies had died during his sacking of KL. The only people I can think of are Jamie, Selmy, Varys and Pycelle

Point C eliminates Jamie, Varys and Pycelle. There’s no way Ned would believe those three. He would trust Selmy though. Unfortunately Selmy gets eliminated when Point D is activated. There’s no way Selmy would hide anything to his new king especially after he saved his life.

However, there’s actually another person who might qualify to all of them ie Ashara Dayne. Her brother might have told her that Lyanna was pregnant and was currently located at the tower of joy (Point A and B). Since Ned had a crush on her, he would have probably believed her. Also as a Dornish woman she couldn’t possibly trust Robert, not after the trident.  If that theory is right then Ashara’s feelings towards Ned surpassed that of her brother. 
That might explain why Ned went all the way to bring Dawn back to the Daynes and why Ned was able to go out of that place with his head still attached to his neck. Ned was an honourable chap but going to Starfall with Sir Arthur’s blood on his hands was a very risky business indeed. Ned must have had a big debt to pay towards the Daynes to risk that + someone from the inside might have kept the Daynes in line.

If you ask me, Ned loved Ashara and she loved him back. I don’t think Ned got her pregnant, he’s far too honourable to do such a thing (+ he wouldn't survive starfall after that, not even with Ashara's backup). Her story Im afraid is far more simply and tragic. Ashara betrayed her own blood for Ned's affection only to learn later on that he was married off to somebody else. That must drove the girl passed the brink
 

[Maester Crypt]

In the Sworn Sword, Eustaces wife kills herself when he sends their only child left (a daughter) to Kings Landing as a hostage for his part in the Blackfyre Rebellion. This does have parallels to the conversation Ned and Cersei had about "the child he stole" and the result being the mother(Ashara) throwing herself from a tower. It may mean nothing at all but certainly there are similarities between the two.

[acwill07]

2 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Ned ripped Jon - her son by Brandon - from her arms. That's why she killed herself.

LOL.  This obviously isn't correct, because if it were true there would be no reason for Ned to tell everyone that Jon is his bastard.  He could simply be Ned's nephew.  Everyone on this board overthinks the TOJ.  Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar and it's really that simple.

[cgrav]

I suspect she died/vanished because the Daynes were part of Rhaegar's plan to depose Aerys. When Ned showed up with Dawn, she knew that the cause was lost and her house was implicated in the treason. Robert would probably not act kindly towards a house that tried to help propagate the Targaryen line.

[TMIFairy]

1 hour ago, acwill07 said:

LOL.  This obviously isn't correct, because if it were true there would be no reason for Ned to tell everyone that Jon is his bastard.  He could simply be Ned's nephew.  Everyone on this board overthinks the TOJ.  Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar and it's really that simple.

The truth about Jon is yet to be revealed.

In a B+A=J scenario there could be reasons - starting with the simplest "it seemed a good idea at that time" and then Ned being too prideful to admit that it had not been such a good idea after all, to the more serious "Jon is the son of the ELDEST brother Stark" - for Ned to claim Jon as his and as younger than Robb.

We simply have to wait for the next book.

[cgrav]

The non RLJ theories are unconvincing. They rely almost entirely on logistical possibility and are not backed by sensible or consistent literary evidence. Compared to the Targaryens and Starks, the Daynes have very little thematic significance within the story itself. They may be a tip of the iceberg of other important world building stuf, but they are only peripheral to the present action. In other words, they don't matter enough to be part of our main character's mysterious parentage. GRRM hasn't made us care much about the Daynes, save for Dawn, and it's way too late to bring that stuff in. We don't even have a family tree for the Daynes beyond a the most recent generations, while pretty much every other house of note (even Frey) is fleshed out with such background.

What's the point of the mystery if half the readers need to be reminded of who Ashara Dayne was? What's the point if Jon is just some bastard? 

Being non-Targ also contradicts the mountain of textual implications, particularly Jon's "kissed by fire" and "dragon at winterfell" themes. There's a reason Jon doesn't belong in the crypts, and it quite simply that he is not a Stark. He is a character essentially of Fire and must pass through Ice (death) in order to attain his full identity. 

And from a symbolism point of view, the purpose of the Daynes is to be dead. They were the carriers of Dawn, and their death heralds the Long Night. Their castle name, Starfall, is a direct reference to real-life Venus descending the sky immediately before dawn. Hence the introduction of the Darkstar, showing the evenstar aspect of Venus only after the Starfall Daynes have basically disappeared (unclear what Edric's role may be).

While there's a lot of fun lore that could implicate Dayne genetics in Jon's (and all Targaryens') heritage, I don't see any affirmative reason to believe that Jon is anyone but Rhaegar's and Lyanna's.

[Buried Treasure]

7 hours ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

She was best friends with Elia. Her brother was the same with Rhaegar. 

I think Ashara's suicide was over guilt. She told Ned Stark where to find Lyanna, and when he returned with Dawn she felt she was responsible for her brother's death.

And finally, What baby?

Barristan Selmy is the only one that bought up that Ashara commited suicide becauce of a stillborn and the culprit? One of the Starks. No other mention by another character. A gorgeous noble woman that every man wanted? Maybe Barristan is still hurting after all these years.

 

Her suicide was because when Ned arrived she learnt of her son's death at the hands of Gregor Clegane.

An unwedded noblewoman having a pregnancy would be considered dishonorable, so she would have good reason to keep it secret. There are reasons Barristan would know things about Ashara that are not common gossip - he was infatuated with her so would have paid close attention to her actions, and he was a KG so would have had access most do not. As you say Ashara was close to Elia so anytime they were together in Dragonstone or Kings Landing is a time Barristan might have been close enough to learn some of Ashara's secrets.

What Barristan thought he knew might not be the whole truth though; Elia gave birth in the year after Harrenhal, so the possible windows for when the two women conceived / were pregnant overlap. Elia was sickly, and her husband had already started looking elsewhere, so if she had given birth to a stillborn girl she might have been afraid of being set aside, and if Ashara had given birth to a healthy bastard boy whose Dayne looks resembled Targ looks then switching could have solved problems for both of them.

 

 

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I simply don't see Eddard Stark dishonoring a high born woman that he is not even betrothed to especially if he has strong feelings for her. IF he was in love with Ashara I think he would have begged his father and her's to except a betrothal between the two before he'd sleep with her.

That leaves Brandon Stark, who we know has no qualms about sleeping with high born Ladies who he isn't going to marry. Ned and Ashara may have fell in love at Harrenhal but if a Stark bedded her it was Brandon, in my opinion. 

I don't see why her suicide would be hard to except, we know practically nothing about her personality. 

[cgrav]

52 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

I don't see why her suicide would be hard to except, we know practically nothing about her personality. 

I think that's exactly why it's so easy to speculate. Suicide isn't particularly common in the story, and many characters endure far worse losses without the thought even crossing their mind. We aren't told of her being melancholy at any other mention, for what it's worth, and that would have been a very easy way reinforce the truth of the suicide.

Her brother and household servant were at ToJ, which strongly implicated the whole of House Dayne in the attempt to secretly continue the Targaryen line, a position that practically guaranteed her death or severe punishment. They didn't just fight for the Targs, they conspired with Robert's arch nemesis and against the Iron Throne. 

Remember that Ned was in the south ending the war, not just trying to find Lyanna. He offered the holdout KG chances to kneel for Robert or flee, and I'd say it's entirely possible Ned asked Ashara to pledge fealty on behalf of her otherwise treasonous house.

I have an inkling that one of Ned's "lies" was covering the circumstances of Ashara's death in order to hide Rhaegar's shadow dynasty. Either he let her flee, let her commit suicide, or executed her himself. The result in any case was to close the door on any questions about Rhaegar's conspiracy, which would have eventually led to the discovery of the secret Targaryen heir. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Man, I wish I knew the answer. 

[lyannaisalive]

She's not dead. For him to specifically add that nobody actually saw the death or her body means she's not dead and has some role to play later on. 

[lyannaisalive]

Jon's mother has to be Lyanna, there is no evidence to support she is Jons mother. I doubt NEd killed Lyannas son and there is nobody else that that could be Lyannas son

[The Bard of Banefort]

Ashara Dayne is a character I have a hard time wrapping my head around.  She seems like such a minor character -- a beautiful young woman who died young, just like many other characters in this series. But I know she wouldn't still be coming up in ADWD if she didn't hold some greater significance to the story.

I believe that Brandon Stark was the man Ashara was in love with, and that the "dishonor" she suffered wasn't premarital sex, but rather a broken heart. Like Barbrey Dustin, Ashara probably thought Brandon would break off his engagement with Catelyn to be with her, especially once it was revealed she was pregnant. But as we all know, he didn't, and the odds that he was ever really in love with Ashara or Barbrey are pretty slim. 

I have wondered if Ashara is Aegon's real mother, or Ashara's child was the one killed in Aegon's place, but I'm also a solid believer in the Blackfyre theory, which would be negated by both of these.

At this point, it looks like it's one of those mysteries that we won't be able to solve until more material is released. 

 

[lyannaisalive]

5 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Ashara Dayne is a character I have a hard time wrapping my head around.  She seems like such a minor character -- a beautiful young woman who died young, just like many other characters in this series. But I know she wouldn't still be coming up in ADWD if she didn't hold some greater significance to the story.

I believe that Brandon Stark was the man Ashara was in love with, and that the "dishonor" she suffered wasn't premarital sex, but rather a broken heart. Like Barbrey Dustin, Ashara probably thought Brandon would break off his engagement with Catelyn to be with her, especially once it was revealed she was pregnant. But as we all know, he didn't, and the odds that he was ever really in love with Ashara or Barbrey are pretty slim. 

I have wondered if Ashara is Aegon's real mother, or Ashara's child was the one killed in Aegon's place, but I'm also a solid believer in the Blackfyre theory, which would be negated by both of these.

At this point, it looks like it's one of those mysteries that we won't be able to solve until more material is released. 

 

I think Gerold Dayne might be her son. HEr son raised as her brother to save the families name and honor. 

[Lord Wraith]

7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Man, I wish I knew the answer. 

Don't we all?