The truth about Ashara Dayne's suicide

[acwill07]

14 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

The truth about Jon is yet to be revealed.

In a B+A=J scenario there could be reasons - starting with the simplest "it seemed a good idea at that time" and then Ned being too prideful to admit that it had not been such a good idea after all, to the more serious "Jon is the son of the ELDEST brother Stark" - for Ned to claim Jon as his and as younger than Robb.

We simply have to wait for the next book.

I'm sorry but literally nothing you wrote above makes the slightest bit of sense.  If Jon was Brandon's son then there would have NEVER been ANY need to keep his identity a secret, especially at the expense of Eddard's honor.  And since Eddard is probably the most honorable man in Westeros, it seems clear that he would not have besmirched his good name unless it was absolutely necessarily.   Lyanna is probably the only person in the world who could've convinced Eddard to lie like that for so many years.  

Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  Those of you who choose to bandy about theories otherwise are merely wishing these crazy things to be true when they are not.

[Ckram]

20 hours ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

Maybe Ned Dayne was right when talking to Arya "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"

It reminds me Tywin's words about Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling, a girl he also disonored: "Robb Stark is his father's son" (ASOS, Tyrion III). It might be Tywin alluding to the repeatence of what happened between Eddard and Ashara (I mean, that they suposedly had sex and Eddard promised to marry her - but the rebellion politics made him marry Catelyn instead).

12 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

IF he was in love with Ashara I think he would have begged his father and her's to except a betrothal between the two before he'd sleep with her.

Ned and Ashara were around 18yo. It's not unlikely to act irresponsibly at that age, specially if you're in love. But I agree that a betrothal sounds more like Ned Stark.

12 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

Her suicide was because when Ned arrived she learnt of her son's death at the hands of Gregor Clegane.

I like this idea. But I think that Ned would react even worse to Tywin offering the Targaryen corpses to Robert if he knew that the dead baby was in fact half-Stark (or a bastard of his own).

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I have wondered if Ashara is Aegon's real mother, or Ashara's child was the one killed in Aegon's place, but I'm also a solid believer in the Blackfyre theory, which would be negated by both of these.

If we assume that Young Griff is in fact Illyrio's son with Serra, what contradiction would there be in speculating that the baby murdered by Gregor Clegane was in fact son of Ashara?

6 hours ago, lyannaisalive said:

I think Gerold Dayne might be her son.

According to semi-canon sources and calculation, Darkstar was born years before the Tourney of Harrenhal.

[The Bard of Banefort]

7 minutes ago, Ckram said:

 

If we assume that Young Griff is in fact Illyrio's son with Serra, what contradiction would there be in speculating that the baby murdered by Gregor Clegane was in fact son of Ashara?

 

If Young Griff is Illyrio's son, and the child killed by Gregor is Ashara's, then what happened to the really Aegon, Elia and Rhaegar's son? 

[The Sleeper]

6 hours ago, lyannaisalive said:

I think Gerold Dayne might be her son. HEr son raised as her brother to save the families name and honor. 

Too old and of a different brach of the family. Ned Dayne's aunt Allyria though ... 

[Ckram]

22 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If Young Griff is Illyrio's son, and the child killed by Gregor is Ashara's, then what happened to the really Aegon, Elia and Rhaegar's son? 

Sorry, I asked this assuming that, like me, you had considered the hypothesis raised by @Buried Treasure (Elia's child been the actual stillborn), but I now see you don't.

[Lost Melnibonean]

14 hours ago, lyannaisalive said:

She's not dead. For him to specifically add that nobody actually saw the death or her body means she's not dead and has some role to play later on. 

Most likely. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 hours ago, Ckram said:

It reminds me Tywin's words about Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling, a girl he also disonored: "Robb Stark is his father's son" (ASOS, Tyrion III). It might be Tywin alluding to the repeatence of what happened between Eddard and Ashara (I mean, that they suposedly had sex and Eddard promised to marry her - but the rebellion politics made him marry Catelyn instead).

That makes a lot of sense. And a girl might throw herself from a tower for that--losing a stillborn child, losing a lover, and losing a brother who was killed by the hand of the one you loved. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 hours ago, Ckram said:

If we assume that Young Griff is in fact Illyrio's son with Serra, what contradiction would there be in speculating that the baby murdered by Gregor Clegane was in fact son of Ashara?

But what would be the point of that? 

[Free Northman Reborn]

She was told that her beloved brother was dead, but that his son by Elia Martel, Aegon, had been smuggled out of the Red Keep. She then left to join him in Essos, and is with him still.

One possible theory, anyway, and one I happen to like.

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

She was told that her beloved brother was dead, but that his son by Elia Martel, Aegon, had been smuggled out of the Red Keep. She then left to join him in Essos, and is with him still.

One possible theory, anyway, and one I happen to like.

Ya know, you mentioned something about this in another thread recently, and I gotta say, it intrigues me. Not sure if it's true, but worth a look. 

[Coolbeard the Exile]

On 2017-08-15 at 6:47 PM, cgrav said:

The non RLJ theories are unconvincing. They rely almost entirely on logistical possibility and are not backed by sensible or consistent literary evidence. Compared to the Targaryens and Starks, the Daynes have very little thematic significance within the story itself. They may be a tip of the iceberg of other important world building stuf, but they are only peripheral to the present action. In other words, they don't matter enough to be part of our main character's mysterious parentage. GRRM hasn't made us care much about the Daynes, save for Dawn, and it's way too late to bring that stuff in. We don't even have a family tree for the Daynes beyond a the most recent generations, while pretty much every other house of note (even Frey) is fleshed out with such background.

What's the point of the mystery if half the readers need to be reminded of who Ashara Dayne was? What's the point if Jon is just some bastard? 

Being non-Targ also contradicts the mountain of textual implications, particularly Jon's "kissed by fire" and "dragon at winterfell" themes. There's a reason Jon doesn't belong in the crypts, and it quite simply that he is not a Stark. He is a character essentially of Fire and must pass through Ice (death) in order to attain his full identity. 

And from a symbolism point of view, the purpose of the Daynes is to be dead. They were the carriers of Dawn, and their death heralds the Long Night. Their castle name, Starfall, is a direct reference to real-life Venus descending the sky immediately before dawn. Hence the introduction of the Darkstar, showing the evenstar aspect of Venus only after the Starfall Daynes have basically disappeared (unclear what Edric's role may be).

While there's a lot of fun lore that could implicate Dayne genetics in Jon's (and all Targaryens') heritage, I don't see any affirmative reason to believe that Jon is anyone but Rhaegar's and Lyanna's.

200% he is Eddard and Ashars son. 

[SFDanny]

On 8/15/2017 at 5:18 PM, lyannaisalive said:

She's not dead. For him to specifically add that nobody actually saw the death or her body means she's not dead and has some role to play later on. 

As a long time advocate of the Septa Lemore = Ashara Dayne theory, I agree. Ashara needs to be alive to understand the huge hole in Aegon's (aka Young Griff) story. For five years after he left Westeros Jon Connington knew nothing of Aegon and lived his life in exile as a member of the Golden Company. Yet someone convinced him that the child who we came to know of as Young Griff, really was Rhaegar's son Aegon. Who vouched for and convinced him the child was who he thinks he is? Not Varys, who was his golden prince's enemy. Not a Pentoshi cheese merchant. It has to be someone he trusts. And it has to be someone Prince Doran trusts, or this plot dies without Dorne's support. Lady Ashara is one of the only characters who can fit this role. She has to tell both Connington, and in the future, the Princes of Dorne that she left Starfall with Aegon to protect him from Robert. Whether any of that is true or not is another question, but she is the only character who makes this story believable to the right people.

[Crona]

18 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If Young Griff is Illyrio's son, and the child killed by Gregor is Ashara's, then what happened to the really Aegon, Elia and Rhaegar's son? 

There's another mystery baby out there!

Ashara is one of those characters I can't quite put my finger on, I believe she's alive but I don't know for what purpose. Most logical answer would be that she's there to say Aegon is legitimate and is Septa Lemore. When I first read about Lemore, I thought she was Ashara, but when I came to this forum there is a lot of compelling arguments that she is not. But if she is Septa Lemore it could also mean that she didn't have a still born and the baby is alive, making a bigger headache...

Another logical answer is that she had post partum depression after having a still born, and her brother's death made it worse. Or as a crackpot Arthur was also her lover and that in combination of a stillborn caused her suicide.

so many possibilities 

[Ckram]

10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

That makes a lot of sense. And a girl might throw herself from a tower for that--losing a stillborn child, losing a lover, and losing a brother who was killed by the hand of the one you loved. 

In deed, it makes a stronger case. But note that, even if Tywin was really referring to Ned anda Ashara, the paralel is not perfect: Ned married accordingly with war politics (Catelyn) and suposedly renounced the woman he disonored (Ashara); Robb, instead, married the girl he disonored (Jeyne) and renounced a political marriage (some Frey girl).

In any case, the imperfection of the parallel does not bother me. On the contrary: I prefer when a character describes imperfect parallels; sounds more like a real human being.

10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But what would be the point of that? 

My original point was merely to show that the hypothesis raised by @Buried Treasure and the Blackfyre Theory were not incompatible.

However, nothing prevents us from stacking the following new speculations (all of them very cheesy and poorly elaborated, imagined solely for the sake of debate) on that one:

1. Perhaps it was the revelation of Elia's baby identity that compelled Rhaegar to seek Lyanna in order to have a legitimate heir or to generate the real "prince that was promised".
2. An account on the exchange of Elia's baby could be distorted by Varys and Illyrio in order to legitimize the story they tell about Young Griff.
3. The fact that Ned really spawned a bastard would have helped to bring some truth to the feeling of "stained honor" he carried.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 8/16/2017 at 4:47 PM, Coolbeard the Exile said:

200% he is Eddard and Ashars son. 

I'm sorry to tell you this but at no point during the war is it likely that Ned and Ashara could have hooked up. GRRM says Ashara was in Dorne during the war, and so far as we know aside from maybe a couple of border skirmishes there wasn't fighting in Dorne. Ned would not have been on border skirmish duty, he was too busy being in the thick of things. By the time Ashara could have found out where he was and traveled through a war zone to get to him, he and the army would have moved on. She was a noted beauty from a family well-known to be pro-Targaryen. There is no way she could slip through both armies' lines twice and not be recognized by one side or the other, and that would have meant huge trouble for her.

The only way Jon is Ned and Ashara's is if he was conceived at Harrenhal, and that would make him way too old to be Robb's younger half-brother, which is the cover story Ned has. Not to mention that there is absolutely no reason why Ned couldn't eventually have told Catelyn the truth if Jon really was his. I understand not telling her at first when they didn't even know each other, but after 15 years and five children together, there is no excuse. A man like Ned would not keep that from the woman he now loves.

Now back to Ashara herself. We don't even know if there was a baby. We do know that we have no suicide note thus far, no eyewitness accounts, and no body. This doesn't necessarily mean she's alive today, but it does make it very likely that suicide was a cover story and she disappeared for a very good reason. She could have died at a later date. 

If she had indeed been pregnant and only recently had a stillbirth (if it was a girl I vote Oberyn for the father) she could have served as a wetnurse for Aegon or any potential Jon twin (not arguing in favor of a twin, just saying that would be a good reason for Ashara to disappear, and an even better reason for Ned to personally escort Dawn home).

As has been mentioned up-thread, she wouldn't still be coming up if there wasn't something important about her. I don't think she's Septa Lemore. I don't think we've seen her unless she's under a glamour to mask her eye color.

[gbellinator]

On 8/15/2017 at 7:18 PM, lyannaisalive said:

She's not dead. For him to specifically add that nobody actually saw the death or her body means she's not dead and has some role to play later on. 

You'll just have to wait a decade to find out!  :-)

 

[TMIFairy]

35 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The only way Jon is Ned and Ashara's is if he was conceived at Harrenhal,

We do not know where Ashara had been when Lyanna was kidnapped. And we know that Ned was in the Lower Six, most probably in the Vale.

So, at that very moment of the kidnapping the Quiet Wolf could had just made Ashara

"scream his name as he pushed her over the edge into her release and she momentarily lost all capacity for coherent thought as her secret womanly core throbbed in spasms of pleasure"  *

 

in some inn in the Riverlands or the Vale. Or in a flower bedecked meadow as the birds sang and butterflies fluttered.

Although my money is on Woof-woof Brandon the Lustful Wolf.

I believe that Ashara could had conceived a Stark bastard up to pretty much somewhere around the moment of Brandon's death, making Jon 4-6 weeks older than Robb.

* I read too much bad fanfiction, I know

 

[cgrav]

17 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

We do not know where Ashara had been when Lyanna was kidnapped. 

 

 

Again... "we don't know" doesn't mean "it could be anything".

And Brandon was caravanning to his own wedding at Riverrun when he heard Lyanna was kidnapped, so Ashara would have to have been pretty close to that route at the time. Coming up from Starfall, that's a huge trip for her to make by herself or even with a few others. It's also pretty reckless of him to just go and hook up with Ashara on the way to his own wedding, surrounded by Starks and Tullys. This adds up to a scenario that is so absurdly improbable that we have no reason to consider it, unless some other concrete information points this way.

[The Sleeper]

What seems to me most likely, would be that she was with Elia until the war started and then went to Starfall. Or she left when she found out she was pregnant.

[Buried Treasure]

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

What seems to me most likely, would be that she was with Elia until the war started and then went to Starfall. Or she left when she found out she was pregnant.

I lean against Ashara being in Dorne for most of her pregnancy because Barristan knows or thinks he knows what happened at the end of her pregnancy. Barristan was not in Dorne, and certainly not late in the war when he was Robert's prisoner, and there is not otherwise gossip of her stillborn (such rumours as there about her work backwards from Ned's acknowledged bastard's mother being unknown). I would suggest that Ashara and Barristan were in proximity in KL or Dragonstone, which allowed him to see or hear something to conclude that she had a stillborn baby.