Jump to content

The truth about Ashara Dayne's suicide


Frey Kings

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Sasha said:

Thanks a lot ! :) 

Maybe Rhaenis is somewhere else. We know very little about Elia Martell. 

Gregor raped Elia, not the little girl, if I remember well. 

You're surely right. But I hope GRRM will tell us who she is. Because I feel something is wrong with her. 

But not Ashara. I don't buy this.

One weird thing is that Ashara is said to be fair haired and in another book, she is a dark haired girl. 

It's very young to talk the black. But after all, Jon was young too. 

Thanks a lot ! Do you remember to whom she was talking and where ? 

You're welcome. :)

Rhaenys was killed in the Red Keep by Ser Amory Lorch. Wherever she started out during the attack (likely in the nursery) she ran away and hid in her father's bedchamber, under his bed. Lorch dragged her out and stabbed her repeatedly. GRRM has said that this is what happened. There's no question that she was indeed killed that day.

Yes I meant that Gregor raped Elia. I doubt he would confess to that if it hadn't been Elia.

I agree that Septa Lemore may well be somebody hiding their identity, and I agree that it's probably not Ashara.

I don't recall any mentions of Ashara having light hair, only dark hair and "laughing purple eyes" which Barristan thinks of as "haunting" probably because the memory of them haunts him. Edric Dayne, I think has light hair. 

Barbrey Dustin was talking to Theon in the crypts of Winterfell. She was there for the wedding of Ramsay and the fake Arya.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

You're welcome. :)

Rhaenys was killed in the Red Keep by Ser Amory Lorch. Wherever she started out during the attack (likely in the nursery) she ran away and hid in her father's bedchamber, under his bed. Lorch dragged her out and stabbed her repeatedly. GRRM has said that this is what happened. There's no question that she was indeed killed that day.

Yes I meant that Gregor raped Elia. I doubt he would confess to that if it hadn't been Elia.

Well, who knows.. The guy is a monster. 

20 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I agree that Septa Lemore may well be somebody hiding their identity, and I agree that it's probably not Ashara.

I don't recall any mentions of Ashara having light hair, only dark hair and "laughing purple eyes" which Barristan thinks of as "haunting" probably because the memory of them haunts him. Edric Dayne, I think has light hair. 

I'm going to read it again, but I found one mention of dark haired girl for Ashara and if you take a look at any illustration they made (wiki and so) she has dark hair. 

20 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Barbrey Dustin was talking to Theon in the crypts of Winterfell. She was there for the wedding of Ramsay and the fake Arya.

Okay, thanks ! :D I was unable to remember where it was ! I'm going to read it again now ! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Sasha said:

One weird thing is that Ashara is said to be fair haired and in another book, she is a dark haired girl. 

Do you mean this description?

The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.

Here it's overall appearance, not hair colour.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am thinking how the suicide would work without a body. Had she jumped from a tower and her body lost in the sea, then it would simply look as if she disappeared. So, either there should have been witnesses, or the body was seen but not recovered.

Of course, it could just be a tale put forward.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Do you mean this description?

The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.

Here it's overall appearance, not hair colour.

 

Okay. I read it in another language. And unfortunately, it seems that the translator made the mistake. I will buy it in english, next time. :angry2:

But so, why does Barristan Selmy think that Daenerys looks like Ashara if she is dark-haired. Daenerys has silver hair. Well, beautiful girls turn his old head. 

We all know memories are treacherous. Like prophecies. ;)

 

 

And by the way, thanks to @Lady Blizzardborn  :D I read again the story of Brandon Stark and his lover Lady Dustin. She doesn't say she was seduced. She said they had a love story. And he had to marry Caitlin after that. He had no choice. So she was not a one-night -stand. They had an affair. Well, her point of view of course. Sounds different. Even if Brandon was quite infatuated with his fiancee (so Caitlin said). 

I think we should be very cautious with what everyone remembers. It's clouded by time, and maybe the desire to keep only nice memories in mind. 

Anyway, we know Brandon was well named and quite wild, like Lyanna. 

Oh but I may have another candidate for Ashara : Oberyn Martell (the red viper). He danced with her at Harrenhall. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Do you mean this description?

The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.

Here it's overall appearance, not hair colour.

 

Yes, I have heard that in some translations, the English work "fair" was translated in the non-English word for "blonde." But to be clear, fair in the context here, means "attractive." 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yes, I have heard that in some translations, the English work "fair" was translated in the non-English word for "blonde." But to be clear, fair in the context here, means "attractive." 

"Fair" is a tricky word for us with english as a second language. Sometimes it means "a lot", sometimes it means "light in colour", sometimes it means "pretty" and sometimes it means "just"... There's way too many options. :D

+ you can have "fair complexion", "fair hair" and be "fair" and honestly it isnt always obvious which is the correct meaning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Sigella said:

"Fair" is a tricky word for us with english as a second language. Sometimes it means "a lot", sometimes it means "light in colour", sometimes it means "pretty" and sometimes it means "just"... There's way too many options. :D

+ you can have "fair complexion", "fair hair" and be "fair" and honestly it isnt always obvious which is the correct meaning.

On behalf of the half-billion or so native English speakers, I apologize. :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Forty-one is indeed past forty. So is fifty. In her thirties, however is not past forty.

Time passes in Martin's world. When he tells us in 2002 that Howland Reed and Ashara Dayne would be in their thirties in the story as it was at that time, it means that the characters would be in that age range as the story unfolds up to and including A Storm of Swords. A thirty-nine year old Ashara could turn forty before the turning of the new year (the Purple Wedding) and still be in Martin's age range for the great bulk of the time the series deals with up to that point. When we get to A Dance with Dragons and the introduction of Tyrion to Septa Lemore and the rest of the Shy Maid's cast of characters Lemore could have already turned forty-one depending on how long after the Purple Wedding that event takes place. That's the outside limit on one side of the range Martin has given us for Ashara's age. Which means if strictly adhere to Martin's range (we should) and also look for this to strictly adhere to the range Tyrion gives us (we shouldn't, given all the reasons I've stated) we still can't use age to rule out Ashara being Septa Lemore.

 

23 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I wonder what Tyrion would need to make a general estimate of her age, apart from the fact that he has functioning eyes and that he presumably has seen women past the age of forty before from all walks of life. From Lemore's end she is described as handsome, attractive, with glowing skin. That sounds like someone who is well preserved, not premeturely aged. Also have you seen her doing any manual labor on the boat?

Tyrion is not some street magician who tells people's age as a parlor trick to amuse the crowds. Like most people, he makes judgements based, I'm sure, on a number of factors regarding people's superficial appearance. He can be right or wrong in his estimate unless he has something more objective to work from. He doesn't with the Septa, and we are not meant to take this as anything more than his estimate, his guess.

If you have read the various ages different characters assume others to be, then you know these statements vary wildly in accuracy. Look to Ned's view of Tommen and Renly's ages to look for some of the most untrustworthy guesses of age in the story. There are others who are more reliable, such as Catelyn and Varys. Which makes sense in that their places in society put the need to be accurate about these details more highly than Neds. Why you assume Tyrion to be reliable in his guess about the age of a woman he knows next to nothing about is beyond me. Rather this estimate says as much about Tyrion as it does about Lemore's appearance.

Regarding whether or not Lemore  does manual labor, we don't know the answer, but it isn't a factor I've argued. I've point out the exposure of the elements (wind, sun, water, temperature) has on the aging process, but I have not spoken to the unknown amount of manual labor has done in her life. That's because it's unknown.

 

23 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

But hey, if you want to disregard how she is described in the text, I want to play too. You can't really assume that Lemore's hair color is natural. She is presumably hiding her identity, right? Both Jon Connington and Aegon dye their hair to hide their identity. There is nothing to discount that she is not doing the same thing. For all we know she could be a blond or a redhead.

I don't assume Lemore's hair color is natural. At least not in the sense you use the word "natural." I think it is modified by bleaching from the sun. Probably through the use of honey and lemons to bleach the hair. Notice this wouldn't mean the loss of color from the dye being washed out. Like the rest of the crew, they are hiding, and, like Aegon, Lemore admits to wanting to hide her appearance. 

While I'm at it, let me also deal with the other primary argument used to "disqualify" Lemore really being Ashara - the lack of mention of Ashara's purple eyes. Let me point out the obvious. If we had someone who tells us about Lemore's eye color and they said they were something other than purple, then we would have something to disqualify the theory. We don't, and I think It's important that we have no character who yet comments on her eye color.

After all, this is a detail often has complained about making sure he got it right (remembering Renly's blue eyes that were green) and the expectation that it might get mentioned somewhere along the line in, say, Jon Connington's POV, not to mention Tyrion's. I think there are a few reasons for this omission. First, that mentioning violet eyes would give the mystery away to soon for the story. If Lemore is Ashara, she has a crucial role to play and our author cannot reveal her identity before he needs to do so. Secondly, I think Martin is playing with the reader in the way he hides the omission of Lemore's eye color. We get the detail of Lemore's description from Tyrion's very male gaze. The old stereotype of a man who focus is only on the shape of a woman's breasts to the extent he neglects to look her in the eye is being used to omit telling the reader her eye color. The debauched and leering Tyrion is wholly focused on Lemore's naked body, but he says nothing about her eyes. That is not to say he never notices her eyes, but that in the state Tyrion is in when we get Lemore's description it is believable he does not comment on her eye color. Martin uses, I believe, Tyrion's sexist male gaze as a way to hide what is likely a too important clue.

But all of this is just an argument about why Ashara cannot be ruled out as Lemore's hidden identity. What is more important is the argument why this secret is likely true.

The five year gap from Jon Connington's exile to his introduction to the child he comes to call "young Griff" means someone else has to vouch for the child's identity. That means Connington has no way of convincing the most important person for the success of this plot about whether or not Aegon is who he says he is. Someone has to convince the Prince of Dorne that this youth is really Rhaegar and Elia's child miraculously saved from death at the hands of Gregor Clegane.

Varys story is fine as a story goes, but it doesn't prove to Doran this is his nephew and not some fake the old mummer has tricked up and fooled others about. He needs someone who will vouch for Aegon who the Prince will trust to the point of calling his banners to war. There aren't many people who can do that, and plausibly have been with the baby Aegon from his escape from King's Landing to this day. In fact, I would suggest that Ashara Dayne is likely the only person who can both claim to taken Aegon out of King's Landing and out of Westeros and to be able to convince Doran she is not lying.

Ashara was a friend and confidant to Elia and likely to Rhaegar as well. Martin has mentioned that she was not "nailed to the floor" in Dorne which begs the question where was she during this critical time? We don't know. But it would not be a stretch of believability to hear her tell Doran that she went with the disguised Aegon when the Pisswater Prince was substituted for him and she went to Starfall and then on to the Free Cities with Aegon to keep him safe from Robert. That she also faked her own death would not be unbelievable since her body was never recovered. Only a real Ashara though, could convince Doran of the tale. Regardless of whether or not the tale is true. The evidence for this being Ashara rests in the need for someone to fill this plot hole that Aegon's tale so far leaves with us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I am thinking how the suicide would work without a body. Had she jumped from a tower and her body lost in the sea, then it would simply look as if she disappeared. So, either there should have been witnesses, or the body was seen but not recovered.

Of course, it could just be a tale put forward.

Thats a great point! The detail of her leaping from the Palestone Sword must have come from somewhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

First, that mentioning violet eyes would give the mystery away to soon for the story. If Lemore is Ashara, she has a crucial role to play and our author cannot reveal her identity before he needs to do so.

But why did GRRM decide that Ashara would have notable eyes if the only way he could cope with it was leave it out altogether? That's very unGRRMish, I'd say. And I'd also say it would be very weird writing if one character's eye colour is left out even though it is important plot-wise, while we have another character in the same chapters whose eye colour is also a plot point.

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Secondly, I think Martin is playing with the reader in the way he hides the omission of Lemore's eye color. We get the detail of Lemore's description from Tyrion's very male gaze. The old stereotype of a man who focus is only on the shape of a woman's breasts to the extent he neglects to look her in the eye is being used to omit telling the reader her eye color. The debauched and leering Tyrion is wholly focused on Lemore's naked body, but he says nothing about her eyes. That is not to say he never notices her eyes, but that in the state Tyrion is in when we get Lemore's description it is believable he does not comment on her eye color. Martin uses, I believe, Tyrion's sexist male gaze as a way to hide what is likely a too important clue.

Sorry but this really doesn't hold. Tyrion has been around Lemore for quite some time, and at the moment when he learns that she is hiding her identity, he starts to observe her more closely wondering who she might be. That is a moment when he is thinking with his brain, not private parts, and a notable eye colour ought to ring a bell with him.

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

But all of this is just an argument about why Ashara cannot be ruled out as Lemore's hidden identity. What is more important is the argument why this secret is likely true.

The five year gap from Jon Connington's exile to his introduction to the child he comes to call "young Griff" means someone else has to vouch for the child's identity. That means Connington has no way of convincing the most important person for the success of this plot about whether or not Aegon is who he says he is. Someone has to convince the Prince of Dorne that this youth is really Rhaegar and Elia's child miraculously saved from death at the hands of Gregor Clegane.

Varys story is fine as a story goes, but it doesn't prove to Doran this is his nephew and not some fake the old mummer has tricked up and fooled others about. He needs someone who will vouch for Aegon who the Prince will trust to the point of calling his banners to war. There aren't many people who can do that, and plausibly have been with the baby Aegon from his escape from King's Landing to this day. In fact, I would suggest that Ashara Dayne is likely the only person who can both claim to taken Aegon out of King's Landing and out of Westeros and to be able to convince Doran she is not lying.

Except that Ashara was not in KL during the Rebellion - isn't there a SSM saying that much? And even if she made a secret trip there, then how did she wind up back at Starfall to meet Ned Stark? And why? If she collaborated with Varys, wouldn't it be better to fake a suicide before she went to fetch Aegon? Because her being at Starfall after the Sack suggests that she wasn't at KL during the Sack and thus cannot vouch for anything. Besides, if she wasn't with Elia during the Rebellion, how would she know herself that the baby is indeed Aegon?

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Ashara was a friend and confidant to Elia and likely to Rhaegar as well. Martin has mentioned that she was not "nailed to the floor" in Dorne which begs the question where was she during this critical time? We don't know. But it would not be a stretch of believability to hear her tell Doran that she went with the disguised Aegon when the Pisswater Prince was substituted for him and she went to Starfall and then on to the Free Cities with Aegon to keep him safe from Robert.

Er, but why did she return to Starfall at all? From KL, the Free Cities are just across the sea. Starfall is on the other side of the continent. If I were Doran, I wouldn't be convinced. At. All.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

But why did GRRM decide that Ashara would have notable eyes if the only way he could cope with it was leave it out altogether? That's very unGRRMish, I'd say. And I'd also say it would be very weird writing if one character's eye colour is left out even though it is important plot-wise, while we have another character in the same chapters whose eye colour is also a plot point.

Sorry but this really doesn't hold. Tyrion has been around Lemore for quite some time, and at the moment when he learns that she is hiding her identity, he starts to observe her more closely wondering who she might be. That is a moment when he is thinking with his brain, not private parts, and a notable eye colour ought to ring a bell with him.

Except that Ashara was not in KL during the Rebellion - isn't there a SSM saying that much? And even if she made a secret trip there, then how did she wind up back at Starfall to meet Ned Stark? And why? If she collaborated with Varys, wouldn't it be better to fake a suicide before she went to fetch Aegon? Because her being at Starfall after the Sack suggests that she wasn't at KL during the Sack and thus cannot vouch for anything. Besides, if she wasn't with Elia during the Rebellion, how would she know herself that the baby is indeed Aegon?

Er, but why did she return to Starfall at all? From KL, the Free Cities are just across the sea. Starfall is on the other side of the continent. If I were Doran, I wouldn't be convinced. At. All.

I don't like Ashara as Lemore either. What's your best guess? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Sasha said:

Okay. I read it in another language. And unfortunately, it seems that the translator made the mistake. I will buy it in english, next time. :angry2:

But so, why does Barristan Selmy think that Daenerys looks like Ashara if she is dark-haired. Daenerys has silver hair. Well, beautiful girls turn his old head. 

We all know memories are treacherous. Like prophecies. ;)

 

 

And by the way, thanks to @Lady Blizzardborn  :D I read again the story of Brandon Stark and his lover Lady Dustin. She doesn't say she was seduced. She said they had a love story. And he had to marry Caitlin after that. He had no choice. So she was not a one-night -stand. They had an affair. Well, her point of view of course. Sounds different. Even if Brandon was quite infatuated with his fiancee (so Caitlin said). 

I think we should be very cautious with what everyone remembers. It's clouded by time, and maybe the desire to keep only nice memories in mind. 

Anyway, we know Brandon was well named and quite wild, like Lyanna. 

Oh but I may have another candidate for Ashara : Oberyn Martell (the red viper). He danced with her at Harrenhall. 

Dany reminds Barristan of Ashara because of her eyes. Dany's eyes are purple. Ashara's eyes were purple. That's the only physical similarity.

Also Dany is young, and Ashara will always be young in his mind. He also feels maybe he failed Ashara and is determined not to fail Dany. He seems to have almost a father-daughter relationship with Dany, so it's natural that her eyes being the same color as the woman he loved, he might also think in terms of the family he might have had with Ashara if things had been different.

Happy to help. Barbrey definitely was in love with Brandon. Don't know if Brandon was in love with her. His line about swords looking best when blooded, with its associated sexual connotations makes me think maybe he made a habit of deflowering virgins.

Oberyn is a definite possibility. The both would have been in Dorne at the right time, and if she did indeed have a girl, we know Oberyn is capable of fathering one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't like Ashara as Lemore either. What's your best guess? 

Wenda the White Fawn. The Kingswood brotherhood gets a lot of attention in the last book, the story of her branding the asses of noble prisoners is even repeated (it's in the Merret epilogue and then in a Jaime chapter when he talks to Merret's family), and her fate is unknown (unlike the other notable members). The origin of her nickname is unknown; white could refer to septa's robes (BTW, Lemore taught YG about the Faith - such a task should be done by someone well-versed in the doctrine, not merely its follower like Ashara, about whom we have no mention as being religious). Furthermore, if Wenda was a former septa, then in the parallel between the Kingswood brotherhood and Robin Hood's merry band, she is Lady Marian and Friar Tuck, who otherwise doesn't have a parallel. We know that Lemore had given birth; being a soiled septa - or made to become one because of being soiled - would explain her rather personal vendetta against the young noblemen as proxies for the one who seduced and dumped her. We also have an account of Barristan rescuing Jeyne Swann and her septa from the brotherhood - well, wouldn't it be a cute chance for Wenda to save her ass, seeing that the brotherhood was doomed? It was speculated that Wenda may have been of House Cafferen (sigil of two fawns), which is a Stormland house, just like house Swann, which would allow for a possibility for the two women being acquainted and Jeyne thus cooperating to help Wenda. Finally, there is a possible connection through the Toynes - Simon Toyne was the brotherhood's Robin Hood, the GC was led by Miles Toyne who was on the Aegon plot.

The original idea is FireEater's, I only elaborated on it a bit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Supposing that Lemore is Ashara then it would make sense as a disguise to discard the septa's robes and bleach her hair. A dark haired purple eyed Westerosi would draw attention. A white blond with purple eyes can pass as a Lyseni or a Volantene. In truth being a Septa does not seem to be an act. She seems genuinely pious and when they dock at Selhorys she dons civilian clothes.

The same applies for Aegon. Why bother with the blue hair. They could just claim he was either Volantene or Lyseni. Granted harder to pretend the former when he doesn't even speak the language. But that can be corrected.

What doesn't work with his natural hair color is his supposed relationship with Griff. In truth the disguises are rather feeble and everything in their little party screams Westeros. I suspect that what kept them hidden was isolation and the fact that they kept moving around. Varys probably thought of the disguises so they wouldn't be immediately recognizable and to maintain ambience.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Spoiler
22 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

The same applies for Aegon. Why bother with the blue hair. They could just claim he was either Volantene or Lyseni.

 

Is not dying hair and beards the fashion for males "over there"?

Maybe the dyejobs make them appear more "local"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, TMIFairy said:
  Hide contents

 

Is not dying hair and beards the fashion for males "over there"?

Maybe the dyejobs make them appear more "local"?

Only for Tyroshi. You get some others here and there, but it is basically a custom of Tyrosh. Hence the supposed lady of Tyrosh as a mother.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...