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How can Daenerys make her claim stronger than Jon's


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3 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

He named Viserys heir over Rhaegar's kids because he believed that Dorn betrayed the throne.  Specifically he believed that Prince Lweyn, a dornishman and kings guard, betrayed Rhaegar at the Trident so he didn't want a dornish heir. 

Thats also why he kept Ellia and the kids at KL instead of sending them to Dragonstone with Rhaella and Viserys. He was using them as hostages against potential Dornish aggression.  

 

And Aerys believed the Stark family were conspiring against him.  So he would go out of his way to make sure all future half-Starks could never inherit Westeros.

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33 minutes ago, Heavy D said:

And Aerys believed the Stark family were conspiring against him.  So he would go out of his way to make sure all future half-Starks could never inherit Westeros.

Uh... at that point the Starks were in open rebellion against the crown. I also don't think there has been any indication of what Aerys did or didn't know about Rhaegar's relation with Lyanna so the idea that he was at all concerned about a Targ/Stark baby seems unlikely.  

I guess it just depends on what Aerys thought his son was doing with Lyanna. 

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Thinking this over again, I'm not really sure how Jon would go about making the case for his legitimacy.

1. There's no actual in-world evidence that Jon is Lyanna's child. The only witnesses are dead, and at this point it would rely on Bran's word with zero proof.

2. Almost ditto for the resurrection thing. Here there are a few witnesses, but still is everyone going to believe that? Otherwise he's an oath breaker plain and simple and at their most important hour to boot just to attend to family affairs and then accept a kingship.

While he might have a legitimate claim, I don't think he actually has the tools in-universe to argue it.

 

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5 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

Thinking this over again, I'm not really sure how Jon would go about making the case for his legitimacy.

1. There's no actual in-world evidence that Jon is Lyanna's child. The only witnesses are dead, and at this point it would rely on Bran's word with zero proof.

2. Almost ditto for the resurrection thing. Here there are a few witnesses, but still is everyone going to believe that? Otherwise he's an oath breaker plain and simple and at their most important hour to boot just to attend to family affairs and then accept a kingship.

While he might have a legitimate claim, I don't think he actually has the tools in-universe to argue it.

 

Howland Reed.

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On 8/15/2017 at 4:18 AM, SeanF said:

After Rhaegar's death, Aerys made Viserys his heir, and following Aery's death, Rhaella crowned Viserys on Dragonstone.  Subsequently, Viserys made Dany his heir.  From the point of view of a Targaryen loyalist, there is an unbroken line of succession.

Daenerys can also argue that she is Targaryen on both sides, being born of incest, whereas Jon is part-Stark, and part-Targaryen.

Finally, we don't know what the terms of the annulment and new marriage were.  The marriage might have excluded any children from the succession.

GRRM has explained ASOIAF is loosely based on the Wars of the Roses in England.

Aerys = Henry VI. Both suffered from mental illness, which created havoc while they were ruling, and led to the split of their own houses due to long-term family infighting that began before their reigns, that their mental states exacerbated, that led to broader house v house fighting and civil war.

Jon = Henry Tudor (VII) who will reunite everyone.

BOOK:  It won't matter what declarations an insane monarch who was unfit to rule made regarding his heirs, and they're all dead anyway. Caligula made a horse a senator. Rome didn't carry on that tradition because it was crazy.

Dany's claim will never be stronger than Jon's because any sibling of Rhaegar will never be ahead of any legitimate issue of Rhaegar's, and that's Jon.  

Elizabeth II could declare William her heir, attempting to shut out Charles from the Line of Succession (which would never happen unless she somehow went crazy), in which case Parliament would likely override her, unless Charles was unfit somehow. (Now if Charles abdicates of his own volition, that's an entire different story.)

SHOW: Same, except the annulment vehicle is used because the show has never mentioned Targaryen plural marriages. 

4 hours ago, Illiterati said:

Howland Reed.

This. it's why Meera went home.

 

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On 8/16/2017 at 2:37 PM, Lurid Jester said:

Uh... at that point the Starks were in open rebellion against the crown. I also don't think there has been any indication of what Aerys did or didn't know about Rhaegar's relation with Lyanna so the idea that he was at all concerned about a Targ/Stark baby seems unlikely.  

I guess it just depends on what Aerys thought his son was doing with Lyanna. 

Brandon the fool stormed into the Red Keep threatening to kill his son.  I'd say Aerys had a very good idea what his son was up to shortly thereafter.  I would love to have been in the dungeons while Brandon Stark was being questioned.  I'm sure it was entertaining, unless you were Brandon.  Aerys and his jailers taught that idiot how to sing.  Aerys would know what Brandon was thinking.  He would make sure any child of Rhaegar's present and future are taken out of the line of succession for good.  

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On 8/15/2017 at 7:22 AM, Moon Boy for all I know said:

On a succession-by-bloodline basis, she can't. Primogeniture is the way titles change hands in Westeros. Even leaving gender out of it, the son of a first son inherits before a second son (or in this case, daughter.) In that regard, Jon's claim will always be strongen than Danaerys'.

The whole point is moot, however, since the Targaryen dynasty was overthrown so no Targaryen has any right to the throne and the Baratheons/Lannisters rule by right of conquest. The only way a Targaryen will sit the iron throne again is if they re-conquer the Seven Kingdoms. This means that the ability to press your claim is more important than the strength of the claim itself. Considering Danaerys has three dragons and a larger army than Jon, you have to give her the edge here.

This thread could have ended after this post because it is the obvious answer.

The Targs have no claim to the throne because their dynasty was overthrown.  Only through conquest can they gain it back and whoever leads the effort and wins sits on the thrown.  Of course, she could step aside for Jon or he could challenge her after the fact.

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On 2017-08-15 at 8:00 AM, Samwell_Tarly said:

What we forget is, Daenerys does not have to make her claim stronger really. Jon is not interested in power. He'd bend the knee to Cersei if she was the only person who could help them defeat the WW and the AoD. He is really not interested in power, hes had it forced upon him multiple times.

Sam, I'm curious why you think Jon would bend the knee to Cersei to get her aid to fight the WW. Then why won't he bend the knee to Dany? I know he doesn't "know" her, but he already knows what a hot mess of a ruler Cersei is.

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32 minutes ago, I prefer summer said:

Sam, I'm curious why you think Jon would bend the knee to Cersei to get her aid to fight the WW. Then why won't he bend the knee to Dany? I know he doesn't "know" her, but he already knows what a hot mess of a ruler Cersei is.

Jon is not the self-sacrificing good guy that most of his fans on this board claim him to be.  He's an arrogant ass who is too proud to bend the knee to the one person who has the means to defeat the white walkers.  And let me remind you, the lands that he thinks he rules over is on the direct path of the white walkers.  The north will suffer first and the worst.  It's not even been proven that winter will reach the southern kingdoms.  Jon can't claim he's doing it all to defend mankind and then turn around and refuse to bend his knees. 

A claim just gives one the legitimate right, or as much right as there can be in medieval times, to pursue the throne.  Being slightly ahead of someone is less important than having the bigger army.  Logically, it is next to impossible for Jon to prove his claim absent of modern day paternity tests.  Don't get me wrong, I would not put it past Beniof and Weiss to cook up something silly to argue against this perfect logic.  Whatever they do will fail the test of logic. 

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On 8/15/2017 at 8:47 AM, elder brother jonothor dar said:

1. Kill him, tried and trusted method and has worked for centuries.

2. Attain him as an oathbraker and deserter from the night's watch.

3. Ignore his claim and take the iron throne anyway, possession is 9/10th of the law.

4. Do what the show will probably do marry him and be co rulers 

I stopped reading the thread after this.  This post is all we need, I'm not even curious how we got 5 pages deep on it.

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I don't think you can be legitimized into kingship when the dynasty you ostensibly belong to has ended. But really, at this point it all comes down to who's left standing after everything is over rather than this or that tiny detail. Say Dany and Jon and Cersei and a number of other ambitious lords have all perished, yet Gendry is alive and his parentage is widely accepted (those are a lot of ifs and rather implausible) then I guess it's not impossible that he could end up being King. Currently, Cersei theoretically rules on as a sort-of continuation of Robert after all.

IF Gendry survives at all, it's possible that Jon (likely) or Dany (possible) would restore him to the Baratheon line (where he'd be at the top) as Lord of the Stormlands however, as much for "services rendered" as for his blood.

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On 8/18/2017 at 8:30 PM, Bowen Marsh said:

Jon is not the self-sacrificing good guy that most of his fans on this board claim him to be.  He's an arrogant ass who is too proud to bend the knee to the one person who has the means to defeat the white walkers.  And let me remind you, the lands that he thinks he rules over is on the direct path of the white walkers.  The north will suffer first and the worst.  It's not even been proven that winter will reach the southern kingdoms.  Jon can't claim he's doing it all to defend mankind and then turn around and refuse to bend his knees. 

Jon probably would bend the knee to Dany if he knew she believed in the Army of the Dead. He'd still be afraid of the  northern lords going a long with him, but I bet he'd do it. The fact that he doesn't trust her doesn't mean he's letting his pride cast doubt on the Fate of Mankind.

What if he puts himself in her service, and suddenly she's all, "Shut your fool mouth about zombies, march your army South, and attack King's Landing while me and my dragons chill." Oops. His kingship is actually a hand to play in getting her to commit to the fight. And they need her, or rather her dragonfire and light cavalry.

In fact, I predict Jon WILL bend the knee immediately after Dany says she's all-in against the White Walkers. Then they'll have sex. Bank on it. 

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16 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I stopped reading the thread after this.  This post is all we need, I'm not even curious how we got 5 pages deep on it.

Because the subject of the thread is how Dany can make her claim stronger in the sense of being more legitimate. Invoking force majeure is beside the point. Though the Night's Watch aspect is intriguing.

It would be as if there were a thread asking on what grounds to impeach President Trump, and someone answered, "Shoot him in the head." That would kick him out of office, as would impeachment followed by conviction, because dead men can't be president. But it's not in the spirit of the topic. 

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