Hibee87

Azor Ahai

85 posts in this topic

22 minutes ago, Rohlin_the_Wretched said:

"I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow." kind of debunks this theory.  Unless you are going to argue R'hllor is intentionally leading Melisandre astray.

Intentionally leading her astray?  No.  Showing her what she needs to see instead of what she's asking for?  Yes. 

R'hllor needed her with Stannis, so show her Stannis.  R'hllor needs her and Stannis's army north to help Jon, show her whatever vision she needs to convince Stannis to go to the Wall.  Mel asks for an image of Azor Ahai, R'hllor shows her an image of Snow... not because Jon is Azor Ahai but because Azor Ahai is off the board and Jon is now the focus of R'hllor's attention.  

R'hllor is moving pieces around, not wasting time to explain what those pieces are or why they're being moved. 

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16 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Melisandre has misread every vision she's had.

She is not reading anything into it, she is just reporting the fact.

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9 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Intentionally leading her astray?  No.  Showing her what she needs to see instead of what she's asking for?  Yes. 

R'hllor needed her with Stannis, so show her Stannis.  R'hllor needs her and Stannis's army north to help Jon, show her whatever vision she needs to convince Stannis to go to the Wall.  Mel asks for an image of Azor Ahai, R'hllor shows her an image of Snow... not because Jon is Azor Ahai but because Azor Ahai is off the board and Jon is now the focus of R'hllor's attention.  

R'hllor is moving pieces around, not wasting time to explain what those pieces are or why they're being moved. 

You are overdoing it, there is a simpler solution: Melissandre asked for Azor Ahai, and R'hllor showed her Azor Ahai.

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1 minute ago, watcher of the night said:

She is not reading anything into it, she is just reporting the fact.

that she is unable to interpret the visions.

 

For one thing, the lord of light would be aware that Jon is not a Snow, further damping this theory.

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Just now, Illiterati said:

that she is unable to interpret the visions.

 

For one thing, the lord of light would be aware that Jon is not a Snow, further damping this theory.

Um, so what? Who said that R'hllor does not know Jon's parents?

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1 minute ago, watcher of the night said:

She is not reading anything into it, she is just reporting the fact.

She is assuming that a "God" is at her beck and call to show her what she wants.  

Instead she is a pawn who is being shown only what she needs to see to move her from square to square.  

The end result is that she is with Jon when she needs to be.  Nothing more. 

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Just now, watcher of the night said:

Um, so what? Who said that R'hllor does not know Jon's parents?

You'e missing the point, which is that Melisandre asked to see AA and was shown snow, which is in my mind both a red herring for the viewers and yet another indication that Mel pretty much sucks at reading the fire.

 

I pray that debates like this will be settled when the story unfolds.  I fear they won't.

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Why did Melisandre give birth to that black smoke? 

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2 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

She is assuming that a "God" is at her beck and call to show her what she wants.  

Instead she is a pawn who is being shown only what she needs to see to move her from square to square.  

The end result is that she is with Jon when she needs to be.  Nothing more. 

This is entirely your speculation ...

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1 minute ago, watcher of the night said:

This is entirely your speculation ...

LOL this entire thread is nothing but speculation, unless you have information no one else has....

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Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

You are overdoing it, there is a simpler solution: Melissandre asked for Azor Ahai, and R'hllor showed her Azor Ahai.

Not at all.  Your explanation works for one vision. What about all the visions of Stannis?  

My explanation works for all of them. 

Melisandre's visions are all important, she just doesn't understand why. 

Edited by Lurid Jester

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2 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

Why did Melisandre give birth to that black smoke? 

The shadow baby.  A magical creature that facilitated the murder of Renly because Arya hadn't been trained yet. :D

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1 minute ago, Illiterati said:

You'e missing the point, which is that Melisandre asked to see AA and was shown snow, which is in my mind both a red herring for the viewers and yet another indication that Mel pretty much sucks at reading the fire.

 

I pray that debates like this will be settled when the story unfolds.  I fear they won't.

She sucks at interpreting what she saw, this time she gave no interpretation (IMHO). But yes, this is pure speculation.

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4 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

This is entirely your speculation ...

And yours isn't?

until the story is over and all questions are answered it's ALL speculation.  

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2 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Not at all.  Your explanation works for one vision. What about all the visions of Stannis?  

My explanation works for all of them. 

Melisandre's visions are all important, she just doesn't understand why. 

Did she ever saw Stannis when she asked for Azor Ahai? I don't think so. She saw him victorious here and there and she might have interpreted it as a sing of Azor Ahai; but we all agree that she sucks at interpreting her own visions.

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1 minute ago, Lurid Jester said:

And yours isn't?

until the story is over and all questions are answered it's ALL speculation.  

Mine is too, but it is a simpler one :)

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1 minute ago, watcher of the night said:

Mine is too, but it is a simpler one :)

Simpler in that it only explains some visions, not all of them.   

It doesn't explain Stannis. 

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Posted (edited)

Melisandre has sucked at interpreting, but G.R.R.M. has never said she not incorrectly seeing what is being presented to her by R'hllor.  The fact that Jon Snow is a Targaryen is irrelevant, because Melisandre doesn't know Jon is a Targaryen which is why R'hllor showed her Snow (Note the capitalization in the books and snow is only a proper noun if it is a name).  

The Lord has shown me Bolton banners burning.  Melisandre thought this was an indication of a Stannis victory, but was a vision of the burning Flayed Men at the beginning of the Battle of the Bastards.

I saw him in the flames, fighting at Winterfell.  Another reference to Jon at the Battle of the Bastards.

I have seen myself walk along the battlements of Winterfell. I have seen the flayed man banners lowered to the ground.  Again incorrectly interpreted as Stannis beating the Boltons, but it ended up being Jon who fulfilled this prophecy.

Notice none of these visions mention Stannis being there.

The visions are accurate, the interpretation is faulty.  R'hllor used Stannis to lead Melisandre to Azor Ahai at her request.  She didn't ask to be led to Lightbringer.

Edited by Rohlin_the_Wretched

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Posted (edited)

P. S.  While your theory is interesting, it relies on people being really good with metaphors and I don't G.R.R.M. would put himself into a position where he has to explain an important plot point in his stories.  In the end, for the sake of his readers, I think he used the K.I.S.S. rule:  Keep It Simple Stupid!

Just like with a joke, if you have to explain a major plot point, there was no point in telling it in the first place!

Edited by Rohlin_the_Wretched

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25 minutes ago, Rohlin_the_Wretched said:

Melisandre has sucked at interpreting, but G.R.R.M. has never said she not incorrectly seeing what is being presented to her by R'hllor. 

This. There is a difference between seeing and interpreting.

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