Hibee87

Azor Ahai

85 posts in this topic

11 minutes ago, Rohlin_the_Wretched said:

P. S.  While your theory is interesting, it relies on people being really good with metaphors and I don't G.R.R.M. would put himself into a position where he has to explain an important plot point in his stories.  In the end, for the sake of his readers, I think he used the K.I.S.S. rule:  Keep It Simple Stupid!

Just like with a joke, if you have to explain a major plot point, there was no point in telling it in the first place!

GRRM also said he doesn't use easily decipherable prophecies.

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3 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

GRRM also said he doesn't use easily decipherable prophecies.

Again, this is not presented as a prophecy or as an "interpretation". Melisandre actually quite disappointed and she thinks that R'hllor is fooling with her.

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2 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

Again, this is not presented as a prophecy or as an "interpretation". Melisandre actually quite disappointed and she thinks that R'hllor is fooling with her.

Talking about the AA prophecy.  Snow as AA would be too simple.

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Just now, lancerman said:

It's Jamie. 

Has anyone given any consideration to Gilly as Azor Ahai and Sam as Nissa Nissa?

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Rohlin_the_Wretched said:

P. S.  While your theory is interesting, it relies on people being really good with metaphors and I don't [think] G.R.R.M. would put himself into a position where he has to explain an important plot point in his stories.  In the end, for the sake of his readers, I think he used the K.I.S.S. rule:  Keep It Simple Stupid!

He wouldn't explain it but he'll give you the bread crumbs to figure it out on your own.  Read some of his other works, or even his various comments and interviews... he is very much Not an author who keeps it simple.  

The show? Maybe.  Probably.  

Martin?  No way.  One of his big things is to screw with tropes and assumptions in fantasy literature.  

Having Melissandre constantly misinterpreting the visions is more believable than thinking she's been wrong every time before, but this time she's right.  

She thought Stannis was the Azor Ahai, but he wasn't. So why send her visions of him?  To move chess pieces.  

Edited by Lurid Jester
Spelling is hard

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9 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

GRRM also said he doesn't use easily decipherable prophecies.

It was not easy for Melisandre.  And there is still people out there who believe it is Dany with good reason.  There are probably dozens of other theories out there as well, so I wouldn't call this "easy".  This is just the most logical scenario, not the easiest.

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

She though Stannis was the Azor Ahai, but he wasn't. So why send her visions of him?  To move chess pieces.  

I don't recall Stannis being in any of her visions.  As mentioned in a post above, there was no mention of Stannis in the visions I mentioned, she just assumed she saw Stannis doing these things, when Jon was the one the visions were about.

Edited by Rohlin_the_Wretched

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11 minutes ago, Rohlin_the_Wretched said:

I don't recall Stannis being in any of her visions.  As mentioned in a post above, there was no mention of Stannis in the visions I mentioned, she just assumed she saw Stannis doing these things, when Jon was the one the visions were about.

Earlier in the series.  They don't got into in on the show but something had to convince her that Stannis was the prince that was promised.  

It wasn't his sparkling personality. 

It's explained in the books that Melisandre saw Stannis as Azor Ahai in her visions. 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos V 

"She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?" He ground his teeth. "We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must . . . we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty. Melisandre swears that she has seen me in her flames, facing the dark with Lightbringer raised on high. Lightbringer!" Stannis gave a derisive snort.

 So is this telling us that Stannis was Azor Ahai, but now isn't?  Or could it be an example of Melisandre misinterpreting a vision again. 

After all, we've already seen Stannis facing the darkness with a flaming sword raised.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos I 

[Melisandre] lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

Stannis Baratheon strode forward like a soldier marching into battle. [...] The king plunged into the fire with his teeth clenched, holding the leather cloak before him to keep off the flames. He went straight to the Mother, grasped the sword with his gloved hand, and wrenched it free of the burning wood with a single hard jerk. Then he was retreating, the sword held high, jade-green flames swirling around cherry-red steel. Guards rushed to beat out the cinders that clung to the king's clothing.

So here we have a scene from the previous book with Stannis holding a flaming sword over his head, at night, in the dark.  

The vision Melisandre was given was true, but her interpretation was false.  Again. 

Then there is this line:

Quote

He went straight to the Mother

That's interesting. One might assume, given the story of the Last Hero and the forging of Lightbringer, that he would have had to pull it from The Maid because Nissa Nissa was the Last Hero's lover.  

Nope. The Mother.

Im willing to bet that GRRM did that on purpose.  

Because Lightbringer is born, not forged.  

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Quite possible she saw a repeat of the scene in A Clash of Kings as a vision in A Storm of Swords, it would just be a vision of the past.  I am not sure this qualifies as a vision of Stannis as Azor Ahai or just a vision of Stannis doing something Azor Ahai like in Melisandre's eyes.  The only time I can recall her specifically asking for a glimpse of Azor Ahai ... she saw Snow.

And if your interpretation is correct how is a dead Rhaegar Targaryen going to come back from the dead and wield Jon Snow?  Come to think of it, how would any human wield another human as a weapon?  Maybe Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun was Azor Ahai?

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1 minute ago, Rohlin_the_Wretched said:

 

And if your interpretation is correct how is a dead Rhaegar Targaryen going to come back from the dead and wield Jon Snow?  Come to think of it, how would any human wield another human as a weapon?  Maybe Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun was Azor Ahai?

You could be interpreting a prophetic abstraction literally.  Like Mel.

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Posted (edited)

So what is going to happen in an abstract interpretation?  How does Jon stop the White Walkers if he is Lightbringer?

Like I said the theory depends on too many metaphors and moving parts, but I have seen worse theories.

Personally, I think Hot Pie has a better chance of sitting on the Iron Throne than this theory working out.

If I am wrong, I will be having my own Feast of Crows!

Edited by Rohlin_the_Wretched

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Posted (edited)

29 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

You could be interpreting a prophetic abstraction literally.  Like Mel.

BOOM!

31 minutes ago, Rohlin_the_Wretched said:

And if your interpretation is correct how is a dead Rhaegar Targaryen going to come back from the dead and wield Jon Snow?  Come to think of it, how would any human wield another human as a weapon?

Who in the show have we seen wield a flaming sword?

Berric Dondarrion, after he cut his hand with his sword and coated the blade in his own blood.  He then fights the Hound with it... and gets killed again.

 What does Berric have in common with Jon Snow?  They're both dead men raised by the Lord of Light.  

So, it can be argued that Jon can also produce a flaming sword using his own blood. If he can do that... 

Lightbringer wields himself in the form of his blood igniting Longclaw into a flaming sword.  

Edited by Lurid Jester
Added some bits

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7 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

It also implies that Rhaegar could have known that Lyanna was going to die.  Could add fuel to the "Rhaegar is a jerk" thread.  

Oh lol do not go there......

 

I really like this theory though, cant believe I haven't stumbled across this.

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Stannis wielded a fiery sword as well.  

It is plausible Jon could ignite Longclaw with his own blood if the reason Beric can do it is because he was raised by the R'hllor.  This is just another assumption.  

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Posted (edited)

20 minutes ago, Rohlin_the_Wretched said:

Stannis wielded a fiery sword as well.  

It is plausible Jon could ignite Longclaw with his own blood if the reason Beric can do it is because he was raised by the R'hllor.  This is just another assumption.  

An assumption based on some inductive reasoning.  It's not certain that Jon can do this, but it is heavily suggested.  It was also heavily suggested that Melisandre would be able to raise the dead...

...even though we'd only seen Thoros do it.  

Edited by Lurid Jester
I think it's inductive reasoning... but it's been a while. :)

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5 hours ago, Illiterati said:

Has anyone given any consideration to Gilly as Azor Ahai and Sam as Nissa Nissa?

Jamie could be a Targaryen along with Cersie, he's probably prophecy bound to kill his beloved sister Nissa Nissa. He currently weilds a blade that was once made of Ice so he would be the fire (Targaryen) weilding the former Stark blade (Ice). He would also be the third Targaryen. 

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7 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

An assumption based on some inductive reasoning.  It's not certain that Jon can do this, but it is heavily suggested.  It was also heavily suggested that Melisandre would be able to raise the dead...

...even though we'd only seen Thoros do it.  

One problem though ... If Jon is Lightbringer ... why did he have to die?  Technically he was forged at birth in your theory and therefore would not need to die to use his blood to ignite a sword.  The death was significant, but your theory makes it mute, which is a paradox.  

 

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Posted (edited)

I think "Lightbringer", "The Lion", "Nissa Nissa", "Salt and Smoke" etc are all metaphors.

Dany and Jon, together make Azor Ahai "wielding" Lightbringer. Many elements seem to alternatively apply to both of them.

Note that the prophecy clearly mentions that the PTWP would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen. So we can pretty much do away with Jaime, or Tyrion, or Gendry, or the Hound, or Bronn(?!). Its either Dany or Jon (or the alleged Aegon son of Elia, which is unlikely since he has been omitted from the story) or both.

Also, expect all these prophecies to never be clearly explained like some Young Adult novel (remember Harry Potter taking a 30 min time off from his final to explain his whole history to his nemesis? ROFL). This will be all left to interpretation by fans and characters of the show alike. 

Edited by daemonTheBlack

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On 8/15/2017 at 4:48 AM, DarkBastard said:

People sometimes think that Azor Ahai will be the same as the original (Nissa Nissa and all that) but  the story of the original Azor Ahai will not replay exactly as it did in legend (forging Lightbringer for example):

 In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Come again, pull a sword from the fire, that sword will be Lightbringer.  Much open to interpretation, but how would Sandor wake dragons from stone?  Only Daenerys has done that.  

No one knows for sure what will come of all this, but my money is not on Sandor.

Can this even happen in the show tho now?  Has this prophecy even been mentioned except by one person in passing one time?

Show only.  In my thread "Will R+L+J Deliver?" I'm asking WHAT will be the significance we have all been being led to concerning that.............. and how the only real payoff to fans for that would some very cool Azor Ahai event/revelation (clearly, not under-stated or assumed).  Then my point is, Azor Ahai has  never been ramped up AT ALL in the show but in passing.  Is it not too late now to insert this into the story?

And if the Promised Prince idea and prophesy is NOT in the show, will that make R+L+J fail totally........

What - beside Azor Ahai - is the payoff to Jon's lineage?  Jon rides a dragon?  Serious?

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