Jaqen H'ghar's nonsense

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

20 hours ago, Makk said:

I'm not convinced George had this completely fleshed out when he first penned this storyline. I don't think he really had a detailed reason about why Jaqen was in the black cells. If you start saying he deliberately got imprisoned so he could travel north with Ned and then kill him and take his face, you have to come up with an explanation why he wouldn't simply shadow the party north and move in for the kill one night. It would mean he wouldn't start from a compromised shackled position and he wouldn't have to worry about Yoren looking for a missing person. If anything he could kill Yoren first and take his face. We'll see if anything else is ever revealed, we will almost certainly get another look at Jaqen/Pate but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for some answer to his past.

This has always been my issue with such an intricate "Ned Replacement Theory" no matter who potentially arranged such a complex scheme. All the way down to being in such a submissive position. It really does appear he "needed rescuing" or else Jaqen would not likely associate with Arya anyway.... Surely if anyone (in the entire north) would notice "Ned's" off-social-behavior or perhaps private behavior it would be Arya, the daughter of the figurehead that you are Glaumoring.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

30 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

This has always been my issue with such an intricate "Ned Replacement Theory" no matter who potentially arranged such a complex scheme. All the way down to being in such a submissive position. It really does appear he "needed rescuing" or else Jaqen would not likely associate with Arya anyway.... Surely if anyone (in the entire north) would notice "Ned's" off-social-behavior or perhaps private behavior it would be Arya, the daughter of the figurehead that you are Glaumoring.

Plot device to develop Arya's character? 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Aaaand my long post with half a dozen quotes disappears as this stupid site logs me out instead of posting... maybe I'll come redo it at some point.

58 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Plot device to develop Arya's character? 

Or simply a major plot point like:

The Syrio/Jaqen faceless man was there to kill Ned, and discovering this will be the reason Arya leaves the House of White and Black...

 

When, in theory, the faceless man entered the black cells, then carted up with Yoren, Kings Landing and the Red Keep were on lock down.

Also, why does Varys so insistently tell Ned he's a dead man while at the same time actively trying to get him to take the black, and seemingly succeeding?

All while changing his face and having authority over the black cells.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Plot device to develop Arya's character? 

Ahhh I don't mean to take away in the least. Just my initial problem with "adding" a very involved and rather specific "Ned Replacement" theory. 

I'm the last to pass judgment upon her as a character, her past storyline, or wherever it's headed bc her self-awareness and decision making are second to none regardless of age gender nobility etc. I have a belief only Arya (of all characters in The books) could have survived the sequence of events leading to her future Knowledge/storyline 

 

[devilish]

@YOVMO

I do believe that there’s a war between fire and ice and that followers of R’holler are being misled by the great other (another theory for another thread). However, I don’t think that the Braavosi are part of that plan. 

Braavos power rotates on capitalism. Kings and High Lords are kept under control through their debts, war are won through bribes, armies are often bought and financial savvy people loyal to the Braavosi get mansions, power, princesses (Drogo) and armies. Braavosi don't conquer lands. They change their rules, they make sure they are too weak to react and they reward those bright enough to be of use + who are willing to obey (Ex Illyio or Viserys). I doubt that the great other will be interested in being controlled. Dead people do not pay debts.

In my opinion, Braavos had been planning to ‘Pentoise’ Westeros since Aerys II rule. Being former slaves themselves the very concept of people having absolute power on others through birth right disgusts them and they wish to change that up. Power should go through meritocracy ie people who knows how to handle money + they can see things the Bravoosi ways. 

The problem is that Westeros is not Pentos. Their combined armies could wipe away Braavos if they wanted to and that’s exactly what they would do if they sniff a hint of political intrusion from their side. 

That is why Westeros needed to be weakened first. Aerys-Tywin alliance which contributed in keeping the economy in good health had to be ruined. The dragons had to be kicked out of Westeros to give way to decades of incompetency and wars. That suits the IB fine. Incompetency and war cost money and the IB has that in bucketloads. More chaos means more debt which translates in more power for the IB. Whoever sits on the IT will inherit so much debt that he will hardly be able to breath without Braavosi consent. 

To achieve that Varys was implanted in Aerys’s court. He first task was to destroy the strong an stable Targeryan rule.  Varys achieve that by first weakening the alliance between the lions and the dragons (who could possibly slip the information Ilyn Payne’s stupid comment if not Varys?) and then between Rhaegar and Aerys (ie spilling the beans about Harrenhal). His actions kept hitting the Targeryan hard. He possibly fed Aerys paranioa regarding the Baratheons-Starks which lead to Rickon/Brandon's death and Robert's rebellion. 

Since Robert’ rebellion Varys had been busy keeping a certain level of chaos either through through his non action. For a man who pride himself of knowing everything + to love the realm , he did suffered from some great misses. 

- He didn't knew that the Lannister twins were busy producing children

- he never reported to Ned that Robert was crushing the economy to the ground. 

-  he didn’t knew who killed Jon Arryn (and if he knew he never reported that)

- he didn’t knew that the GC were going to betray Ned (and if he knew he never reported that)

-  he didn’t help Ned to escape.

Varys kept his ‘selective’ reporting/misses throughout Joffrey’s and Tommen’s rule

-          He didn’t stopped Olenna assassination attempt

-          He didn’t help Tyrion throughout his trail

-          He escorted an angry Tyrion to his father chambers at a time when the old lion was busy with Tyrion’s GF.

-          he didn’t knew or warned Tommen or Cersei about the High Sparrow plans

Some might say that Varys was a coward. But do cowards kill a proven Lannister general like Kevan?

Varys-Illyio are important pieces to the Bravoosi plan but they are not everything. We have Syrio who was busy starting Arya’s ‘transition’ from a powerful Westerosi lady/assassin/queen under Braavosi control. We have Jaqen, a faceless man who sits at the red keep waiting for the execution commands and we have LF (whose family originates from Braavos and whose sigil is the titan of Braavos) whose pretty much creating the same type of chaos but whose operating outside of Varys-Illyio’s chain of command just in case the latter two decide to go rogue.

Meanwhile in Essos the dragon spawn were given lectures of humility and made to heel to Illyio’s (ie Braavos) commands. Danny was married off to some horselord and a Penterossi sympathiser/Illyio’s best mate (Drogo has a mansion in Pentos). What about Viserys?  Well, he was made to tag around like the beggar king he is until the time was right (Westeros is in chaos etc). I won’t be surprised that if he stuck around for enough time, then Viserys would have been married off to a totally brainwashed Arya Stark whose job would be to act pretty, smile, produce lovely babies, be in the very middle of Westerosi nobility and kill anyone who dared to challenge the Braavosi.  No wonder why Jorah (Varys former spy now in love with Danny) persuaded her not to seek Illyio. That man was using the Targs like pawns. .

Viserys, Jorah’s defection and Cersei’s actions had threw spanners into the Braavosi plan. Syrio had to die to keep Arya safe, Jaqen had to take his place and Aegon had to be slotted into Viserys/Danny role.

 

 

[Castellan]

On 15 August 2017 at 10:15 PM, Ser Petyr Parker said:

 

Thoughts? Does Jaqen's explanation make sense to you? Or do you think he was up to something else involving Arya? Was he trying to send her to the House of Black and White all along?

My only hesitation is that religions generally don't make sense and do accommodate selective cases, faulty reasoning and so forth, so Jaqen might believe this about those three particular deaths. i.e. in reality he feels he owes her but this is the repayment he comes up with and the rationale for it. 

[firstofhxrname]

On 15.08.2017 at 3:41 PM, YOVMO said:

Not at all. That JH was in the black cells at all is absolutely absurd. Who caught him? Janos Slynt? I am a huge fan of @Toe's Grand Faceless Men Conspiracy Theory though I do think there are areas it is lacking and others that need refining.

I will go on record and say that if Jaquen was in the black cells it was because he wanted to be there. I believe that Varys is a FM too and that the general plan was to have Ned take the black, JH to kill him and take his face and take up the roll of Ned on the wall to destabilize the Night's Watch. When Ned got his hair cut a little too short JH changed plans and headed over to the Citadel.

Omg, did you even read the books ?

[firstofhxrname]

On 15.08.2017 at 6:00 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

People have all sorts of absurd theories about this.  The fact of the matter is that in the limited amount of time we have seen Jaqen on page we saw him make a mistake.  While disguised as Pate he refers to himself as "Pate, like the pig boy."  We the readers, as well as Alleras/Sarella know that Pate would never refer to himself like that.

So we know the faceless men are not perfect.  We also know simply as a practical matter that shit happens.  Some guys could've tried to rob him, someone could've unluckily walked around the corner right after he dealt with those thieves.  Any number of unlucky things could have happened to wind him up in the black cells.

Niether LF, nor Cersei, and certainly Varys did not hire the FM to kill Ned.  The FM charge based on the target, and based on the person doing the hiring.  The cost seems to be at least half of everything you have.  Varys only real possessions are his life and power, he gave up neither.  LF has wealth and power, and he still has both.  Cersei had wealth, power, and children.  She still has wealth and power, and did not give her children to the FM.  Therefore none of them hired a faceless man.

As for destabilizing the Nights Watch.  I don't even know how to comment on that.  

Thank you ! I scrolled through the whole thread and lost enthusiasm to join discussion because of all those nonsensical theories. I think the "Pate, like the pig boy" moment was a mistake, like you said, a proof of Jaqen being cocky. It was a clever way to make readers sure Pate is Jaqen. It was exactly what Jaqen would do, being too sure of himself, getting cocky when things go well and he plays people around as he wishes. Jaqen is very young in the books and that's how he behaves. He did the same in Harrenhal when he showed Arya face changing trick. He grinned like a boy seeing her  expression. That sort of behavior could get him locked in the Black Cells. We see through Arya's pov that Jaqen is a great swordsman but even the greatest swordsman can be beaten when he's surrounded by a bunch of guards and he happens to not have a proper weapon at the moment. That's how Syrio got killed. That's how Jaqen could have been captured. 

  

[LiveFirstDieLater]

11 minutes ago, firstofhxrname said:

. That's how Syrio got killed. That's how Jaqen could have been captured. 

Defending the Sealord of Braavos after someone found out he was harboring a Targaryen Exile and helping facilitate his marriage to Dorne?

It’s like when Syrio calls Arya a boy, and just a sword, and gives faceless man lessons... way before Jaqen appears at all! Making a mistake... not the kind that ends you up in jail though. 

We never met Syrio, he was a faceless man the whole time, and that’s how Jaqen ended up in a black cell. And why he knew who Arya was.

[cpg2016]

11 minutes ago, firstofhxrname said:

Thank you ! I scrolled through the whole thread and lost enthusiasm to join discussion because of all those nonsensical theories. I think the "Pate, like the pig boy" moment was a mistake, like you said, a proof of Jaqen being cocky. It was a clever way to make readers sure Pate is Jaqen. It was exactly what Jaqen would do, being too sure of himself, getting cocky when things go well and he plays people around as he wishes. Jaqen is very young in the books and that's how he behaves. He did the same in Harrenhal when he showed Arya face changing trick. He grinned like a boy seeing her  expression. That sort of behavior could get him locked in the Black Cells. We see through Arya's pov that Jaqen is a great swordsman but even the greatest swordsman can be beaten when he's surrounded by a bunch of guards and he happens to not have a proper weapon at the moment. That's how Syrio got killed. That's how Jaqen could have been captured. 

  

Glad to see another intelligent poster.

The Faceless Men are not gods, they are human and are fallible like all other humans.  They have special abilities and skills, but that is it.  We don't hear why Jaqen is in the black cells because it does not matter.  Maybe he got caught breaking into a home, or stealing some bread, or killing a previous target.  Maybe the face he wore was unknowingly that of a wanted criminal who died in the House of Black & White.

We know he was there, and we know his being there was an inconvenience to his plans, because he he wants to escape that captivity, and it's a stupid plan which requires being captured if one needs freedom of movement, and none of his actions thereafter are towards the North.

Not every character is another in disguise, and it's awful the way half the fandom thinks that a character is unimportant unless they have a secret identity; it's the exact same problem the GoT showrunners fell victim to, where they thought that things like Jon Snow's true parentage were an awesome heroic moment and not a soul-crushingly awful burden to bear.

[Kandrax]

7 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Glad to see another intelligent poster.

The Faceless Men are not gods, they are human and are fallible like all other humans.  They have special abilities and skills, but that is it.  We don't hear why Jaqen is in the black cells because it does not matter.  Maybe he got caught breaking into a home, or stealing some bread, or killing a previous target.  Maybe the face he wore was unknowingly that of a wanted criminal who died in the House of Black & White.

We know he was there, and we know his being there was an inconvenience to his plans, because he he wants to escape that captivity, and it's a stupid plan which requires being captured if one needs freedom of movement, and none of his actions thereafter are towards the North.

Not every character is another in disguise, and it's awful the way half the fandom thinks that a character is unimportant unless they have a secret identity; it's the exact same problem the GoT showrunners fell victim to, where they thought that things like Jon Snow's true parentage were an awesome heroic moment and not a soul-crushingly awful burden to bear.

I sign every your word.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

13 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

We know he was there, and we know his being there was an inconvenience to his plans, because he he wants to escape that captivity, and it's a stupid plan which requires being captured if one needs freedom of movement, and none of his actions thereafter are towards the North.

Except that he wanted to leave the Red Keep, and Kings Landing, which were on lock down after Cersei’s coup, it’s not so stupid to leave with the Nights Watch guy who has a way out... announced in open court, and passage for the captives in the black cells were signed by Ned, who Syrio was serving, and who was supposed to be going North as well. 

As you point out, they aren’t gods and their plans aren’t perfect...

Also, Balon Greyjoy is killed by a faceless man North of King’s Landing.

[Prince of the North]

My theory has always been that Jaqen was purposely in the Black Cells at that time because he wanted to be sent to the Wall.  After all, there would be no better way to infiltrate the Nights Watch.  And the reason I believe Jaqen wanted to infiltrate the Nights Watch is because he is seeking dragon lore written by Septon Barth but forbidden (and ordered destroyed) by King Baelor the Blessed.  Why the Wall then?  Because it's very remote and happens to have a library presided over by a Targaryen maester for over 60 years.  Someplace like that may still have a copy of Barth's writings on dragons lying around.

Then that plan went awry on the way north.  Jaqen had to change plans after escaping Harrenhall.  After all, he couldn't then just walk up and volunteer for the Nights Watch (not without an airtight backstory because volunteers to the NW are quite rare and are almost always nobles).  So, his choice was to either get himself thrown in jail again somewhere and hope like hell he'd be given the choice of the Wall instead of simply being executed outright...or he could head to another place that just might still have a copy of Barth's forbidden dragon lore under lock and key - the Citadel  

 

[The Mother of The Others]

The topic title opened my mind further than usual, and it's already loose as if it gave birth several times.   The new thing I'm open to is that Hagar's words to Arya were just that- - - his way of speaking to a child.   

We may have made a mistake in assuming he and/or the House of black & white had such a credo.  A life owed for a life saved.   I think now he was just saying to arya that he was in her debt and was willing to work off that debt by performing his best talent for her (the killing thing he does), since he knew she was hiding amongst enemies she wanted dead or would benefit from their removal.  So jaqen didn't sign up to fight arya's war for her, but he did agree to show her his gratitude by getting the ball rolling for her to have a better situation.

[Rufus Snow]

On 3/27/2018 at 10:34 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Defending the Sealord of Braavos after someone found out he was harboring a Targaryen Exile and helping facilitate his marriage to Dorne?

It’s like when Syrio calls Arya a boy, and just a sword, and gives faceless man lessons... way before Jaqen appears at all! Making a mistake... not the kind that ends you up in jail though. 

We never met Syrio, he was a faceless man the whole time, and that’s how Jaqen ended up in a black cell. And why he knew who Arya was.

I also agree that Syrio and Jaqen were both 'played' by the same Faceless Man.

For one, we don't see Syrio killed - although Arya later assumes he died at the hands of Ser Boros. If the Lannisters wanted Arya (and they did) perhaps the most sensible thing to do is clap her last known defender in the Black Cells rather than kill him, in case they could get some useful info from him. Between getting thrown in by the Lannisters, and pulled out by Yoren, Syrio became Jaqen, I believe.

Syrio had already set in motion plans to go to Winterfell with Arya, before it all went tits up, so he had to find a back-up plan once he found himself locked up. I don't think there's any need to have him planning to get locked up - it happened, he adapted.

I also took particular note of a certain verbal tic:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya IV

"Just so. Opening your eyes is all that is needing. The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true. Look with your eyes. Hear with your ears. Taste with your mouth. Smell with your nose. Feel with your skin. Then comes the thinking, afterward, and in that way knowing the truth."

"Just so," said Arya, grinning.

Syrio Forel allowed himself a smile. "I am thinking that when we are reaching this Winterfell of yours, it will be time to put this needle in your hand."

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya IV

Arya did not want to leave him, but he had taught her to do as he said. "Swift as a deer," she whispered.

"Just so," said Syrio Forel as the Lannisters closed.

Arya retreated, her own sword stick clutched tightly in her hand. Watching him now, she realized that Syrio had only been toying with her when they dueled. The red cloaks came at him from three sides with steel in their hands. They had chainmail over their chest and arms, and steel codpieces sewn into their pants, but only leather on their legs. Their hands were bare, and the caps they wore had noseguards, but no visor over the eyes.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

"I won't."

"Just so." He seemed resigned. "The thing will be done, but a girl must obey. A man has no time for talk."

"A girl will obey," Arya said. "What should I do?"

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Arya II

"You told me that if I left, I couldn't come back."

"Just so."

Those words made her sad. Syrio used to say that too, Arya remembered. He said it all the time. Syrio Forel had taught her needlework and died for her. "I don't want to leave."

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cat Of The Canals

"We all were. Lord Snow's command. I told Sam, leave the old man, but the fat fool would not listen." The last light of the setting sun shone in his hair. "Well, it's too late now."

"Just so," said Cat as they stepped into the gloom of a twisty little alley.

By the time Cat returned to Brusco's house, an evening fog was gathering above the small canal. She put away her barrow, found Brusco in his counting room, and thumped her purse down on the table in front of him. She thumped the boots down too.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cat Of The Canals

She had been watching the waif's face the whole time she told her story, but the other girl had shown her no signs. "The Many-Faced God took two-thirds of your father's wealth, not all."

"Just so. That was my exaggeration."

Arya grinned, realized she was grinning, and gave her cheek a pinch. Rule your face, she told herself. My smile is my servant, he should come at my command. "What part was the lie?"

So, it may be put down to a Braavosi habit of speech, but it really does crop up a lot during the FM scenes. And the whole arc of Syrio with the Sealord's cat, Arya chasing cats in the Red Keep, and her becoming Cat of the Canals also forms a very suggestive link, and finally her seeing through the cat's eyes when she reveals she knows the KM is the one hitting her.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Blind Girl

Many of her other duties had remained the same, but as she went about them she stumbled over furnishings, walked into walls, dropped trays, got hopelessly helplessly lost inside the temple. Once she almost fell headlong down the steps, but Syrio Forel had taught her balance in another lifetime, when she was the girl called Arya, and somehow she recovered and caught herself in time.

Some nights she might have cried herself to sleep if she had still been Arry or Weasel or Cat, or even Arya of House Stark … but no one had no tears. Without eyes, even the simplest task was perilous. She burned herself a dozen times as she worked with Umma in the kitchens. Once, chopping onions, she cut her finger down to the bone. Twice she could not even find her own room in the cellar and had to sleep on the floor at the base of the steps. All the nooks and alcoves made the temple treacherous, even after the blind girl had learned to use her ears; the way her footsteps bounced off the ceiling and echoed round the legs of the thirty tall stone gods made the walls themselves seem to move, and the pool of still black water did strange things to sound as well.

"You have five senses," the kindly man said. "Learn to use the other four, you will have fewer cuts and scrapes and scabs."

Arya accepts it as a fact that Syrio 'died for her', but when she parted from Jaqen, he told her that man was dead, too - ie she parted from the Faceless Man at the point his 'character' died (both times if you accept there was but the one FM)  This is another passage where the links are made between the FM and Syrio - note the reference to 'another lifetime' - was that hers, or Syrio's other lifetime? During that other lifetime, Syrio also stressed using all fives senses...

And there's a whole lot of foreshadowing of the cats in the Red Keep and the cats of Braavos, but that's probably best left for later

[Kandrax]

6 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Meryn

Fixed.

 

I heard the theory that original Jaqen was killed by FM during the trip to the Wall.

[Rufus Snow]

5 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Fixed.

Thanks, Kandrax - it was getting late and I didn't bother to double-check which knight it was....

Quote

 

I heard the theory that original Jaqen was killed by FM during the trip to the Wall.

I hadn't heard that one before, but it strikes me as a bit risky, as it would entail the FM getting into the cage, killing the 'original', hiding the body, slipping on the newly-flayed face and then chaining himself in. About the only narrative purpose that would serve to my mind is explaining why Rorge and Biter were so respectful towards Jaqen. For the purposes of just infiltrating the 'recruits' there would have been many easier people to replace.

[Kandrax]

3 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Biter

Biter? I know that Rorge fears Jaqen, but honestly i can't find a proof that is same with Biter.

Also, it should be noted that Rorge didn't seemed to fear Jaqen at all during Arya's second chapter. Though maybe was that because he was in schackles.

[cpg2016]

On 3/27/2018 at 5:49 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Also, Balon Greyjoy is killed by a faceless man North of King’s Landing.

You are aware that "the North" and "north" are different concepts in this world?  I didn't say Jaqen wasn't heading north, because he obviously is.  I said he wasn't heading to "the North".  That is why the word "north" is capitalized.  Grammar is difficult, I know, but kind of essential.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

You are aware that "the North" and "north" are different concepts in this world?  I didn't say Jaqen wasn't heading north, because he obviously is.  I said he wasn't heading to "the North".  That is why the word "north" is capitalized.  Grammar is difficult, I know, but kind of essential.

When you say stupid things and get corrected don’t get mad, we all make mistakes.

The Iron Islands are in the same direction from King’s Landing as The North (its confusing if you only capitalize one word, how am I to know where you fucked up?). And anyway, The North, the name, is based the same comcept as the direction north... you do realize that?

This idea is literally covered in the book when the free folk call anything south of the wall The South.

More importantly, there is no reason to be so rude and petty... my point stands and this is pointless semantics