Ser Petyr Parker

Jaqen H'ghar's nonsense

102 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

On 8/16/2017 at 4:58 AM, The Sleeper said:

The original faceless man was supposedly guided by the prayers he heard. Likewise, they are supposed to give the gift to those who are "marked" after prayer and sacrifice.

As to death being a gift. It doesn't need to be a gift to the recipient. It could be a gift to the one who asked for it.

I haven't finished this thread yet, but I believe the House of Black and White is just a fancy weirwood cave, very similar to Bloodraven's cave.  Skulls in niches, everything is black and white, many enter but few leave, the gift is the blood sacrifice they offer to the weirwood.  The weirwood chooses who will die (similar to the fates or Norns who sit under Yggdrasil).  Arya has to lose her identity to join, Bran is warned that he will lose his identity if he stays in the network or wargs too long.  Braavos itself is almost described as a secret floating town that can be hidden when needed, similar to Greywater Watch (and Isle of Faces).  Braavos is situated between the legs of a stone giant with green hair.

Jaqen is a weirwood agent, with red and white hair the color of weirwoood, he is a wanderer (Hagar in the bible wandered the desert), he speaks in riddles, he is a shapeshifter (very Odin of him).  I think he was there specifically to recruit Arya to the weirwood cult. 

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If the Lorathi was a wizard, Rorge and Biter could be demons he called up from some hell, not men at all.

 

"Gods are not mocked, girl."

The voice startled her. She leapt to her feet and drew her wooden sword. Jaqen H'ghar stood so still in the darkness that he seemed one of the trees.

Arya lowered the splintery point toward the ground. "How did you know I was here?"

A man sees. A man hears. A man knows."

She regarded him suspiciously. Had the gods sent him? "How'd you make the dog kill Weese? Did you call Rorge and Biter up from hell? Is Jaqen H'ghar your true name?"

"Some men have many names. Weasel. Arry. Arya."

 

"By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it." He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. "By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it."

 

"The hungry gods will feast on blood tonight, if a man would do this thing," Jaqen said.

The hungry gods are the weirwoods, he puts his hand in their mouth.  Since the Weirwoods can't walk around he is their avatar, similar to the warlocks/undying relationship, Jaqen is a wizard, I think he warged that dalmatian.  He is/was training Arya to be a "sword" for the weirwood network.

 

I agree with everyone who said Varys was trying to destabilize Westeros.  The Norns under Yggdrasil (sitting their weirwood thrones) weave destiny like a web or tapestry, spider's weave and walk on webs.  In Norse mythology their is a squirrel named Ratatoskr that lived on Yggdrasil that “helps stir up or keep feuds alive by ferrying words of malice between the participants”.  Seems like Varys and Littlefinger are doing that.

"Little birds" give him information, in the myth of Sigurd singing birds gave him information about the future.

 

21 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

why is he in Old Town?  And, perhaps most importantly, what does he need that master key for? 

Leyton Hightower seems to have shut himself in a safe-room in a tower with his daughter and almost no contact with anyone from the outside world, busy studying magical texts, that is a pretty clear metaphor for the weirwood, Also, "The sigil of House Hightower is a stone white watchtower, with a [red] fire on the top."  Located on an island. Their motto is "We Light the Way". They possess a Valyrian steel sword called Vigilance

Oldtown is described as a labyrinth.

The Citadel is guarded by towering green stone sphinxes.

(His daughter is named Malora which means "ruin, or a sudden, unexpected illness" and she is called the Mad Maid, what is that supposed to mean?  Is she an oracle?)

If an Essos/Braavos weirwood avatar is trying to infiltrate a Westeros/Oldtown weirwood, does that hint at a weirwood rivalrly?  Is Leyton trying to protect himself?  I am not sure.

Edited by By Odin's Beard

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It is an intriguing notion. Early in Clash, Samwell tells us there are books at the Wall that not even the Maesters have at the Citadel. And in Storm, after the faceless man, left Harrenhal, we see Roose Bolton burn a book. And finally in Feast we see the dude at the Citadel. 

I found this little gathering of dragon lore references in ASoIaF (mostly or all from Tyrion's chapters, I think) and it's kind of interesting.  Especially this part:

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He was less hopeful concerning Septon Barth's Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History. Barth had been a blacksmith's son who rose to be King's Hand during the reign of Jaehaerys the Conciliator. His enemies always claimed he was more sorcerer than septon. Baelor the Blessed had ordered all Barth's writings destroyed when he came to the Iron Throne. Ten years ago, Tyrion had read a fragment of Unnatural History that had eluded the Blessed Baelor, but he doubted that any of Barth's work had found its way across the narrow sea. And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel.

A Dance with Dragons, Tyrion IV

(Emphasis mine)  Hmm...interesting.

Also:

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If anyone had thought to ask him, Tyrion could have told them not to bother. Unless one of those long iron scorpion bolts chanced to find an eye, the queen's pet monster was not like to be brought down by such toys. Dragons are not so easy to kill as that. Tickle him with these and you'll only make him angry.
The eyes were where a dragon was most vulnerable. The eyes, and the brain behind them. Not the underbelly, as certain old tales would have it. The scales there were just as tough as those along a dragon's back and flanks. And not down the gullet either. That was madness. These would-be dragonslayers might as well try to quench a fire with a spear thrust. "Death comes out of the dragon's mouth," Septon Barth had written in his Unnatural History, "but death does not go in that way."


A Dance with Dragons, Tyrion XI

(Emphasis mine)

So, it appears there are some forbidden writings by Septon Barth that may offer knowledge on how to defeat/kill dragons and some of them may reside at the Citadel.  So, maybe that part of my theory may be a little more solid?  I don't think it's much of a stretch to think Jaqen is after forbidden dragon lore at the Citadel and that's why he needed Pate's master key.  However, the theory that Jaqen was first going to try the library at the Wall is far more of a stretch.  Maybe getting thrown in the Black Cells and subsequently being given to the NW was all just an unexpected detour for him?  Maybe the purpose of that whole thing in the story really was just for Jaqen to cross paths with Arya and to set her on the road to the HoBaW?:dunno:

 

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

What scrutiny, though? Scrutinize how?

There's no paper trail to follow. There's no people to ask (what would the questions even be?). He won't be sending nor receiving any mail so they could try to read it. And there's no prize at the end: whatever secrets the new recruit might have, they'll be worthless. Once at the Wall, black brethren are untouchable by law or vengeance. He can't be turned in. He can't be blackmailed. So, why bother? They'd pry a few times, pushed by regular idle curiosity, and leave it.

On the other hand, a man Yoren judged to be so dangerous that he needed to be locked up in a cage, at the Wall should enjoy extra attention from superior officers. Maybe of the "that man doesn't go anywhere alone until Lord Commander says otherwise" variety. And he'll still get all the idle curiosity.

Sure.  I tried to expand on where I am coming from above (probably to no avail:P). 

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5 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

And, yes, it's all just speculation.  I'm just musing and trying to find a way to fit the pieces together...but maybe the pieces don't fit together?  Only time will tell.    

Indeed. To me, a plan that involves getting locked in the black cells with no way of knowing that Ned would give Yoren leave to recruit any prisoners he may want seems really, really too convoluted but anything is possible.

As for fitting pieces... eh, at this point I think it's very complicated. "Jaqen" has just obtained a key that opens every door at the Citadel but his purpose is unknown. A common assumption is that he wants the book that supposedly contains informations on how to kill dragons because the Faceless Men, given how they came to be, are natural enemies of Valyria... except the only dragonlord (dragonlady?) in existence is actively trying to destroy slavery, which would instead put them firmly in her camp. Also, "Pate" is last seen with Marwyn, who appears to be on Daenerys' side and, given his ability to use glass candles, should be aware of who the fake accolyte really is and of what he's doing. So maybe the Faceless Men really are after that book but they only want it in order to prevent the maesters from using it (again?). Oh well, I don't know if I'm making any sense, I'm pretty drunk right now,

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Good cover to volunteer at the Wall? “Do you provide me with food and Shelter? Yes? Then when can I start?”

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I was looking for clues that the Black Essos weirwoods have a rivalry with White Westeros weirwoods, to give some hint as to what Jaqen might be doing in Oldtown.   There is the scene in Feast chapter 35 when Sam visit Marwyn at the Isle of Ravens.  Alleras says that "the white ravens and the black ones quarrel like Dornishmen and Marchers, so they keep them apart."

This whole chapter is loaded with weirwood symbolism (so is the prologue).  It is called the Isle of Ravens, it is on the Honeywine river (weirwood paste = honey wine?) it has a sick weirwood tree, it is where the ravens are kept, it has a tower with old wizened men in it, one of whom is senile and is named Walgrave (wal can mean "forest").  Alleras (Sallera sand) is called the "sphinx" (cat body, human head, eagle wings, serpents tail, a creature who guards something, he/she is an excellent archer with a goldenheart--[summer isles weirwood?] bow) leads Sam there to meet Marwyn. 

They meet Leo trying to see visions in the flames inside of a symbolic weirwood tower, who has Odin symbolism (one eye covered, Ash-colored hair, speaks in riddles e.g. "the menagerie hates the mastiff" and "Old powers awaken. Shadows stir. An age of wonder and terror will soon be upon us, an age for gods and heroes."  Leo tries to provoke fights, is a good fighter himself),  Alleras asks him if he is looking for his destiny or his death (Odin foresaw his own death).  His name is Leo Tyrell (leo means lion, Tyr means god)  In the prologue Leo knew Alleras was high-born, and referred to himself as "A man"--is Leo also an agent?

They meet Marwyn the Mage (mar meaning "spoil or damage" and wyn meaning "white" or "wine"--also sounds like Merlin the magician).  Marwyn is a thick-bodied white-haired maester has a red mouth from chewing sourleaf, who practices the dark arts.  Very weirwood-ish.  He looks like a mastiff--"as if he wants to bite you."  That is, he is compared to a large and aggressive predatory guard dog who watches over and guards the flock.  He worships at the church of starry wisdom.  He has a glass candle that allows him to see "across mountains, seas, and deserts" and "enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to . . . another half a world apart"

This sounds exactly like what a greenseer does in his weirwood throne.

Marwyn tells Sam the maesters can and will assassinate people with poison, they killed the dragons the last time round, and "that service is the highest honor, and obedience the highest virtue" (and the maesters have masks).  Sounds like the faceless men--assassins, destroyed Valyria and killed the dragons, "all men must serve" and they wear masks.  "Marywn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth."

Then there is the line about prophecy:

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"I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time."

I have said that I think the prophecies are just the weirwood's way of moving pieces around the board.  In the context of this quote, I would say that the express purpose of the prophecy is to trick you into a situation in which your prick will be bitten off.  Prophecy will bite your prick off every time, because that was the whole point, it is working as intended.  It is a feature, not a bug.  It's not "prophesy can bite your prick off some of the time"  It will every time--by design. 

 

Then there's Pate, whose name means "head or wit, cleverness, cognitive abilities," which is ironic, because he is a dim-wit.  The in-story myth about Spotted Pate

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Spotted Pate the pig boy was the hero of a thousand ribald stories: a good-hearted, empty-headed lout who always managed to best the fat lordlings, haughty knights, and pompous septons who beset him. Somehow his stupidity would turn out to have been a sort of uncouth cunning; the tales always ended with Spotted Pate sitting on a lord's high seat or bedding some knight's daughter. But those were stories. In the real world pig boys never fared so well.

My interpretation of this is that the weirwoods manipulate events so that fools like Pate end up in positions of power.  And in this case, a weirwood avatar literally body-snatches the Pate to do his bidding.  In Norse mythology, Odin would deliberately let some of the best warrior's get killed by inferior men, just so he could have their ghost spirits to fight on his side during Ragnarok.

But how did Jaqen/the Alchemist know that Pate would have access to that key? 

 

So Marwyn has at least two spies right under his nose, I think he is aware who Alleras really is and approves of her mission, does he know who Pate really is?  If not, that glass candle has failed him.

(I don't want to get too far off track but the part in the prologue where Dornish Alleras shoots two apples out of the air with a weirwood bow--in the dark--but misses the third is a metaphor for the 3 "black dog" spaceships that blot out the sun, the first two got shot down by the weirwood--the Qartheen moon legend and the Long Night, the third shot will miss.)

 

Anyway, getting back to what Jaqen is doing there.  The black and white weirwoods have a sibling rivalry and must be kept separate.  Jaqen is from the House of Black and White, I think he is trying to unite the weirwoods/ hijack the westeros weirwoods.

 

Following description of the Isle of Faces being guarded by ravens as a parallel to the Isle of Ravens

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Whether the green men still survive on their isle is not clear although there is the occasional account of some foolhardy young riverlord taking a boat to the isle and catching sight of them before winds rise up or a flock of ravens drives him away.

 

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On March 27, 2018 at 5:03 PM, firstofhxrname said:

Omg, did you even read the books ?

lol.

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On 4/8/2018 at 1:22 PM, By Odin's Beard said:

I have said that I think the prophecies are just the weirwood's way of moving pieces around the board.  In the context of this quote, I would say that the express purpose of the prophecy is to trick you into a situation in which your prick will be bitten off.  Prophecy will bite your prick off every time, because that was the whole point, it is working as intended.  It is a feature, not a bug.  It's not "prophesy can bite your prick off some of the time"  It will every time--by design. 

There is also the added metaphor for taking a man’s seed... or his future from him.

Like the Night’s king’s corpse bride.

Like the three eyed crow eating bran’s corn and waking up... impotent?

Even Cersei’s prophesy is losing her children.

Arya is told she will have to give up her private parts.

MMD’s tent of shadows claims the life of Dany’s unborn son.

Melisandre has her shadow babies.

Im now wondering if any of those Targaryens who saw visions over the years ever had children after...

But even beyond he literal taking of someone’s children as part of the cost, there is the fact that seeing a vision of the future takes away a mans ability to decide his own fate, it eats away at his free will.

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On 4/3/2018 at 2:43 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

When you say stupid things and get corrected don’t get mad, we all make mistakes.

The Iron Islands are in the same direction from King’s Landing as The North (its confusing if you only capitalize one word, how am I to know where you fucked up?). And anyway, The North, the name, is based the same comcept as the direction north... you do realize that?

This idea is literally covered in the book when the free folk call anything south of the wall The South.

More importantly, there is no reason to be so rude and petty... my point stands and this is pointless semantics 

No, it isn't pointless semantics.  Here, let me show you and example.

Until tonight. Something was different tonight. There was an edge to this darkness that made his hackles rise. Nine days they had been riding, north and northwest and then north again, farther and farther from the Wall, hard on the track of a band of Wildling raiders. Each day had been worse than the day that had come before it. Today was the worst of all. A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things. All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not. Gared had felt it too. Will wanted nothing so much as to ride hellbent for the safety of the Wall, but that was not a feeling to share with your commander.

That is the prologue.  As you see in bold, when "north" is a direction, it is not capitalized.

Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

As you can see, when the North is referred to as the political entity, it is capitalized.  The article ("the", since it seems you don't understand simple grammar) is never capitalized, except when at the beginning of a sentence.

This is beyond the debate at hand.  If you don't understand basic grammar, you have no business arguing with me.  "The North" (beginning of a sentence, see?) refers to a political entity.  The fact that the North is a polity is due to factors beyond the purely geographic, and goes to cultural and religious issues as well.  

Moreover, because I feel like you probably need a little bit of education in a bunch of areas, you are also factually incorrect about the grammar surrounding the Free Folk.  In no circumstance, not once, do they refer to the south as the South.

"Winterfell's not in the south," Jon objected.
"Yes it is. Everything below the Wall's south to us."
He had never thought of it that way. "I suppose it's all in where you're standing."
Again, this is a direction, not a proper noun.
 
I suppose I fucked up in assuming you understand English.  The fact that you are fighting this is what is bothering me; it's not petty if you are calling out my grammar when you are so blatantly and unforgivably wrong.
 
And by "unforgivably", I am referring to the failure of the public school system, which has so woefully under-prepared you for something as simple as an internet discussion, let alone the real world.

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3 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

No, it isn't pointless semantics.  Here, let me show you and example.

Until tonight. Something was different tonight. There was an edge to this darkness that made his hackles rise. Nine days they had been riding, north and northwest and then north again, farther and farther from the Wall, hard on the track of a band of Wildling raiders. Each day had been worse than the day that had come before it. Today was the worst of all. A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things. All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not. Gared had felt it too. Will wanted nothing so much as to ride hellbent for the safety of the Wall, but that was not a feeling to share with your commander.

That is the prologue.  As you see in bold, when "north" is a direction, it is not capitalized.

Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

As you can see, when the North is referred to as the political entity, it is capitalized.  The article ("the", since it seems you don't understand simple grammar) is never capitalized, except when at the beginning of a sentence.

This is beyond the debate at hand.  If you don't understand basic grammar, you have no business arguing with me.  "The North" (beginning of a sentence, see?) refers to a political entity.  The fact that the North is a polity is due to factors beyond the purely geographic, and goes to cultural and religious issues as well.  

Moreover, because I feel like you probably need a little bit of education in a bunch of areas, you are also factually incorrect about the grammar surrounding the Free Folk.  In no circumstance, not once, do they refer to the south as the South.

"Winterfell's not in the south," Jon objected.
"Yes it is. Everything below the Wall's south to us."
He had never thought of it that way. "I suppose it's all in where you're standing."
Again, this is a direction, not a proper noun.
 
I suppose I fucked up in assuming you understand English.  The fact that you are fighting this is what is bothering me; it's not petty if you are calling out my grammar when you are so blatantly and unforgivably wrong.
 
And by "unforgivably", I am referring to the failure of the public school system, which has so woefully under-prepared you for something as simple as an internet discussion, let alone the real world.

That's kinda rough, innit? 

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On 15 August 2017 at 10:15 PM, Ser Petyr Parker said:

He could truly believe that three lives are owed to a god ... But that assumes Martin wrote something that made little sense.

I thought that it lacked sense on reading. But, he is writing about a religion. Of course it makes no sense. Actually more like a cult cause its not like everyone can sign up to worship death and knock people off for payment, is it? It would kind of impede social functioning.

As to wider issues, I don't think he'd be in the cells or put on the cart north without Varys knowing, he obviously had a mission in Westeros, what it was we can debate forever.....

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On 4/8/2018 at 1:22 PM, By Odin's Beard said:

So Marwyn has at least two spies right under his nose, I think he is aware who Alleras really is and approves of her mission, does he know who Pate really is?  If not, that glass candle has failed him.

It's curious that the Alchemist is in the room with Marywyn when Sam first meets him.  Marwyn tells Sam that he knows everything that Sam told Alleras already.  Sam notes the smell of something burned in the brazier and so I think it's possible that Marwyn was using the glass candle while the Alchemist was present and the burnt offering came from the hapless Pate.    I get the sense that the Alchemist and Marwyn are working together and it was Marwyn who took out the contract on Pate. Getting the master key requires getting rid of Pate and replacing him with a FM while silencing the acolyte for good.  No witnesses.  It's ominous that Marwyn tells the Alchemist to "look after Sam".  Yet I suspect that it will be the Alchemist who leads Sam to the books that he needs.  

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Posted (edited)

16 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

No, it isn't pointless semantics.  Here, let me show you and example.

Until tonight. Something was different tonight. There was an edge to this darkness that made his hackles rise. Nine days they had been riding, north and northwest and then north again, farther and farther from the Wall, hard on the track of a band of Wildling raiders. Each day had been worse than the day that had come before it. Today was the worst of all. A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things. All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not. Gared had felt it too. Will wanted nothing so much as to ride hellbent for the safety of the Wall, but that was not a feeling to share with your commander.

That is the prologue.  As you see in bold, when "north" is a direction, it is not capitalized.

Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

As you can see, when the North is referred to as the political entity, it is capitalized.  The article ("the", since it seems you don't understand simple grammar) is never capitalized, except when at the beginning of a sentence.

This is beyond the debate at hand.  If you don't understand basic grammar, you have no business arguing with me.  "The North" (beginning of a sentence, see?) refers to a political entity.  The fact that the North is a polity is due to factors beyond the purely geographic, and goes to cultural and religious issues as well.  

Moreover, because I feel like you probably need a little bit of education in a bunch of areas, you are also factually incorrect about the grammar surrounding the Free Folk.  In no circumstance, not once, do they refer to the south as the South.

"Winterfell's not in the south," Jon objected.
"Yes it is. Everything below the Wall's south to us."
He had never thought of it that way. "I suppose it's all in where you're standing."
Again, this is a direction, not a proper noun.
 
I suppose I fucked up in assuming you understand English.  The fact that you are fighting this is what is bothering me; it's not petty if you are calling out my grammar when you are so blatantly and unforgivably wrong.
 
And by "unforgivably", I am referring to the failure of the public school system, which has so woefully under-prepared you for something as simple as an internet discussion, let alone the real world.

You are hysterical... terribly childish, but hysterical. 

Yes, proper names of places like The North or titles like Warden of the South are capitalized. Didn’t debate that. 

Also, while entertaining, none of his changes the map, or the fact that the Iron Islands, and the location of Balon Greyjoy’s assasination by a faceless man, was north of King’s Landing.

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I get the sense that the Alchemist and Marwyn are working together and it was Marwyn who took out the contract on Pate.

Mawyn is an archmaester, he already has that key. I think.

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Posted (edited)

On 4/11/2018 at 6:23 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

There is also the added metaphor for taking a man’s seed... or his future from him.

seeing a vision of the future takes away a mans ability to decide his own fate

Add Craster to your list!  He trades away the future of his bloodline in return for his continued herem existence being tolerated by the bemused coldmagic community of the north.  The Others are satisfied with his sacrifice, which amounts to him selling his "soul" to them in more real- world terms.   Give up your future for magic gain is the constant drumbeat theme.

On 4/8/2018 at 10:22 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

was looking for clues that the Black Essos weirwoods have a rivalry with White Westeros weirwoods...and must be kept separate..., to give some hint as to what Jaqen might be doing in Oldtown.   ... Jaqen is from the House of Black and White, I think he is trying to unite the weirwoods/ hijack the westeros weirwoods.

It was tough to see the forest through all the trees (literery allusions) in your megapost, but this distilled headline is gripping!   I see the black & white trees as having sway over their local magic community, (shade of the evening vs. Paste, etc.) and thus the weir determines much of the events of human history, but more unintentionally than how you see it.  I think the trees are a vast subconscious that bleeds through into our subconscious & dreams as a cosmic accident or side effect, not because of dark super- sentient design on the part of the trees, but because we lack a full understanding of their effect on us and how to defend against such interference from alien brainwave intrusion.

If Jaquen's house of black & white truly is a big-tent philosophy that seeks to incorporate both weir types, then he's my hero and my hope for resolving the fire & ice conflict by coming up with a common magic dialect so the trees (and magic communities) stop butting heads.  Or , failing that, stop the madness by putting all magics on a leash with their brand of judicious oversight.  (More ambitious than maesters who want to, "put Baby in a corner" by shelving magic.)  Arya benefits from Faceless membership with increased adaptibility, maybe putting the continent similarly under their charge is the best thing for Westeros!  Balance!

Quote

1) glass candle ...sounds exactly like what a greenseer does in his weirwood throne.

2)maesters can and will assassinate people ...Sounds like the faceless men

3) prophecies are just the weirwood's way of moving pieces around the board.  Prophecy will bite your prick off every time, because that was the whole point, it is working as intended.

4) My interpretation of this is that the weirwoods manipulate events so that fools like Pate end up in positions of power. 

 

1) different internet portals.  Trees aren't the ultimate source, magic emanates through them same as through the candles.

2)  Faceless use magic assassination to bring balance  (as they see it); maesters assassinate magic to bring balance (as they see it).   Different franchises of death.

3)  i think prophecy is deeply unintended.  We mortals are stealing it from the godminded dreams of the weir, and we on this side of the veil aren't equipped to handle it, this god- vision perception of the future, so we're destined to fumble once we glipse it.

4)  the problem with ancient astronaut theories is they rob humanity of all our accomplishments and credit aliens with doing it all.   Or the weir.  This thinking amounts to a form of poor cultural self esteem in our species.   Human nature is what puts Pates in power.   To not own that is a dodge.

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

he's my hero and my hope for resolving the fire & ice conflict by coming up with a common magic dialect so the trees (and magic communities) stop butting heads. 

 

"sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it "  Magic is unsafe at any speed.  Abstinence is the only safe way, bro.

 

9 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

thus the weir determines much of the events of human history, but more unintentionally than how you see it.  I think the trees are a vast subconscious that bleeds through into our subconscious & dreams as a cosmic accident or side effect, not because of dark super- sentient design on the part of the trees

I quoted this in the other tree thread, but they are directly telling people to murder, and inviting foreign armies to invade.

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the island remained a perilous place for outsiders, for the Empress of Leng was known to have congress with the Old Ones, gods who lived deep below the ruined subterranean cities, and from time to time the Old Ones told her to put all the strangers on the island to death. This is known to have happened at least four times in the island's history if Colloquo Votar's Jade Compendium can be believed.

The network is at least as manipulative as Bloodraven, who has been 100% assimilated.  He has long term strategies.  I think the weirwood does more than just radiate negative psychic energy that some people can pick up on.  You don't get a nickname like "demon tree" for no reason.

 

9 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

the problem with ancient astronaut theories is they rob humanity of all our accomplishments and credit aliens with doing it all.   Or the weir.  This thinking amounts to a form of poor cultural self esteem in our species.   Human nature is what puts Pates in power.   To not own that is a dodge.

I agree with this.  The ancient aliens guys who think primitive humans could not move huge stones or build huge monuments are seriously underestimating human ingenuity.  My "Westeros is Earth before the Flood" theory is that everything the aliens built was destroyed and the only thing that remained was their "ghost"--the imprint they left on the collective unconscious of human beings--the belief in god, magic, human sacrifice, prophecy, divine right of rulers--these are the only things the aliens left behind.  Human myth-makers tap into this collective unconscious and that is why so many myths are similar, and Tolkien tapped into it, and Lovecraft tapped into it. 

At some point humans were basically good and lived in harmony with nature.  Something happened an now humans are a cancer on the planet.  I agree it is a dodge of the true dark side of human nature, but I think George's myth is offering a hopeful thought that it maybe wasn't our fault.

 

9 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Trees aren't the ultimate source, magic emanates through them same as through the candles.

Well, you know I don't think there is any magic, just psi-powers (is there a difference though?)

The fact that the glass candles powered up when the dragons were "born" and that they really are a technological artifact from a fallen advanced civilization, makes me think they are advanced technology rather than magic.  The "dragon" (ship) powered up and all the remote-comms came online, because the ship is the power source.  When Sam describes the light they put off, it sounds like a single-point artificial light source, like a bare LED light.

Reminds me of the Grey King and Nagga's "living fire"

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The hall had been warmed by Nagga's living fire, which the Grey King had made his thrall. On its walls hung tapestries woven from silver seaweed most pleasing to the eyes. The Grey King's warriors had feasted on the bounty of the sea at a table in the shape of a great starfish, whilst seated upon thrones carved from mother-of-pearl.

This reminded me of Morgan's spaceship in Bitterblooms, she has a spaceship that can no longer fly, but still has power and tells primitive people that it is magical.  Nagga's living fire sounds like an artificial heat source, the tapestries are viewing screens, the mother-of-pearl chairs sounds like iridescent plastic of some kind.  He lived to be a 1,000 years old, brought civilization to the Iron Born, and nobody could get Nagga to generate heat after he went into the sea. 

 If Nagga was just an overturned weirwood boat, what was the unlimited heat source that lasted for a 1,000 years?

 

(dammit, another megapost)

Edited by By Odin's Beard

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Okay, good show.  Magic = Sword without a Hilt may be true always.  Or it's just the prevailing school of thought because everyone's been schooled by the maesters, who are, like, biased, man.  It is more dangerous to try to master it, obviously, like it's dangerous to practice the triple lutz on iceskates.   If you can weild it though, you're a lot better protector of humanity vs. the Others, whereas maesters have left us dreadfully exposed / out of practice.   Dany seems forged of sturdier stuff, like a vessel who needn't worry about magic biting her prick off.  The hope is she can be the subject of prophecy without fumbling.  That she might enjoy a measure of control.  Forge a hilt onto magic, which might be the lightbringer metaphor, come to think of it. 

I won't be doing spaceships today.  But I will add, for people's consideration, that human "dreamers" (non- Mexican variety) who get invited from afar to settle on Westeros and die bloody there..... these people may be inviting themselves.  What i mean is, joining with the dreaming mind of the old gods, you may have a vision of what's relevant to your own id.   Like a kid runs straight to the toy aisle in the superstore (i.e. vast subconscious oversoul of the old gods).   Or like how we change the channel sometimes during our own dreams, directing the action.   Night night.

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8 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:
On 4/11/2018 at 8:23 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

There is also the added metaphor for taking a man’s seed... or his future from him.

seeing a vision of the future takes away a mans ability to decide his own fate

   Give up your future for magic gain is the constant drumbeat theme.

The weirwood is running a vampire blood-bank pyramid scheme.  In exchange for a portion of your (or someone else's) life-force it will dole out a little bit of "magic" for you.  It wants to get you hooked.  It wants you to keep coming back for more.  But it is a poisoned gift.  And it gradually sucks you dry.  In the case of Stannis, Mel was sent false prophecies by the weirwood that Stannis was Azor Ahai.  She made him think he had a very special purpose--that he was going to save the world.  This led him to do very uncharacteristic things because the "ends justify the means"  He committed adultery with someone who was clearly a witch--he gave Mel his seed, and she took a portion of his soul (a portion of his future), and made a demon baby to murder his own little brother.  She was clearly evil, and he used to be a just and honorable man.  But that prophecy poisoned his mind.  Thus is a great battle commander turned into a husk of a man and a kinslayer.

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the king's fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him.

Sounds like something a vampire might say about a corpse they are slowing bleeding to death

 

You want to win the war against the humans?  That will cost the blood 1,000 captives.

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And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young). And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled.

Really though, war itself is just another form of child sacrifice.

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

You want to win the war against the humans?  That will cost the blood 1,000 captives.

Quote

And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young). And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled.

Really though, war itself is just another form of child sacrifice.

I thought it was interesting you picked this quote...

This is describing the breaking of the arm of dorne and the hammer of the waters.

The first men had crossed the arm and waged war on the Children.

But the breaking of the arm, as pointed out in the world of ice and fire, was too late to stop this migration. 

I do not believe that was the intent.

I believe that the First Men crossed originally running from something. Likely from Valyria or those who founded it, possibly at the collapse of the empire of the dawn.

I’d suggest that the arm was broken as part of the deal, so who or whatever they were fleeing could not follow from Essos. And that the children and men interbred, so their sacrifices were both men and children...

I would also suggest that not all the Children made peace, some of them, perhaps not the wisest, never made peace and instead went north in search of other allies to defeat men, The Others.

Of course, by the time of ASoIaF there would be very few of the children left who made peace, the weirwoods having been destroyed across most of Westeros, but I can’t wait till someone makes it out to the God’s Eye.

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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To be pedantic, "King in the North" and "Warden of the North" are capitalized, and the region is also capitalized in TWOIAF. Within the other publications, however, GRRM has used lower case for the region.

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... Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own. (AGOT Bran I)

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"The next time you visit the godswood, pray that your brother has the wisdom to bend the knee. Once the north returns to the king's peace, I mean to send you home." (ACOK Sansa III)

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Arrows for my brothers, Jon thought. Arrows for my father's folk, for the people of Winterfell and Deepwood Motte and the Last Hearth. Arrows for the north. (ASOS Jon I)

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Robb shook his head. "Even if Harrion were that sort, he could never openly forgive his father's killer. His own men would turn on him. These are northmen, Uncle. The north remembers." (ASOS Catelyn III)

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The ravens had gone forth from Castle Black in a storm of black wings, summoning the lords of the north to declare for Stannis Baratheon and join their strength to his. (AFFC Samwell I)

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"That can only mean a strike at Moat Cailin, to open the way for his lord father to return to the north. The bastard must think I am too busy with the wildlings to trouble him. Well and good. The boy has shown me his throat. I mean to rip it out. Roose Bolton may regain the north, but when he does he will find that his castle, herds, and harvest all belong to me." (ADWD Jon IV)

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The north was a world all its own, Ser Arlan always said. No one up there was like to know the tale of Penny Jenny and the Knight of the Pussywillows. No one will laugh at you up there. They will know you only by your blade, and judge you by your worth. (TMK)

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The north was too remote to be of much import in the fight, the council judged; by the time the Starks gathered their banners and marched south, the war might well be over. (TPATQ)

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The vagaries of geography and history set the North apart from their southron neighbors. (TWOIAF The North)

 

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On 4/11/2018 at 9:56 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

That's kinda rough, innit? 

It has to be.  This fool has been puffing up like he knows what he's talking about, and that by being aggressive and asserting blatant falsehoods he can make me back off of a point that I am 100%, incontrovertibly correct on.  Since the first few polite responses didn't do it, I had to be a little rough.

At the end of the day, it'll be worth it for him (or her) as it will give them a better understanding of English grammar.

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