Robert Baratheon's hammer Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Its often been talked about what varys true motives are with many different theories and ideas. In the show a few episodes back we finally find out when Danny confronts him, that his motives are about helping the people and protecting them. His loyalties are with the people. But does that really make sense considering his actions in the previous seasons? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Varys back the mad king right up until the end. It was Pycelle that convinced him to open the gates to Tywin before the sacking. Was the mad king really that good for the people? Was Varys okay with his plans to on set the city a blaze or did he just not know about that. Then we have his actions during Roberts reign. Robert far from the perfect king, did enjoy large periods of peace and prosperity which I Imagine have been refreshing for the people of Westeros. This far better than war. Wouldn't Varys be happy with that? Clearly he wasn't. Danny makes a great point saying why not counsel instead of scheming for someone new? His reply is ''Incompetence shouldn't be rewarded with blind loyalty''. Of-course you don't have to be blindly loyal but that doesn't mean you should go to an extreme and plot to overthrow him. He seemed to have some blind loyalty to Aerys. This brings me on to his support for Visery's. He want's to remove Robert from the throne and replace him with a guy he has never met or seen. A guy who is the son of the mad king, a Tagaryen. A family with a reputation for being a bit crazy, Flip a coin on if each child of that family will be sane. To make matters worse he want's Viserys to invade with the Dothraki who have a particularly brutal reputation for sacking cities, raping and pillaging, enslaving people they've conquered. Does he really wish that for the people he loves so much? How does he know Viserys won't also be a bad king. Will as soon as things go wrong, scheme for another king. Does he realize the amount of suffering and death a war would cause on the very people he wants to help? All these questions I have make it hard to buy the show's varys motives. Feel free to comment and correct me where I am wrong, Also remember this is a show forum on Varys motives as I would think his motives in the books are a bit different. So keep the conversation based on the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkBastard Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 I think Varys was more concerned with Tywin taking the throne, and what that would mean for the people. Rhaegar was dead, and Tywin at the door...I would have advised against it as well and tried to ensure a peaceful transition. Varys may have had a plan to stop the burning...a plan he never had to enact. I think Tywin had his claws in Rhaegar anyway, even if he hadn't died and became King...the Lannisters would be there with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elder brother jonothor dar Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 His role is to highlight the dangers of the mad queen. His motivations can change to suite the plot unfortunately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwell_Tarly Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Regarding Varys motives I think there is one scene which sums it up. Oberyn walks into the Throne room and the Camera pans back revealing Varys stood staring at the Iron Throne. Varys says ''the absence of desire leaves one to pursue other things'' and oberyn says ''such as'', Varys turns his head and stares at the IronThrone. I think he plan is to gain absolute power and the whole realm for his self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkBastard Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 8 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said: Regarding Varys motives I think there is one scene which sums it up. Oberyn walks into the Throne room and the Camera pans back revealing Varys stood staring at the Iron Throne. Varys says ''the absence of desire leaves one to pursue other things'' and oberyn says ''such as'', Varys turns his head and stares at the IronThrone. I think he plan is to gain absolute power and the whole realm for his self. A definite possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Baratheon's hammer Posted August 15, 2017 Author Share Posted August 15, 2017 44 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said: His role is to highlight the dangers of the mad queen. His motivations can change to suite the plot unfortunately Yes this does seem the case. Not the only character mind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Hustle Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Well, King Robert was going to bring the kigdom into poverty. He never cared for ruling the kingdom, he just loved being able to fuck all the hoes he can get his hands on. And drink all the wine he could get his lips on. The Kindom was bleeding money under his reign, and he didnt care. So, of course varys knew Robert wasnt a good king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Samwell_Tarly said: Regarding Varys motives I think there is one scene which sums it up. Oberyn walks into the Throne room and the Camera pans back revealing Varys stood staring at the Iron Throne. Varys says ''the absence of desire leaves one to pursue other things'' and oberyn says ''such as'', Varys turns his head and stares at the IronThrone. I think he plan is to gain absolute power and the whole realm for his self. Yes, I agree. Varys definitely craves power. Not necessarily in his own name though, I think he's well aware how unlikely that would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwell_Tarly Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, Mikkel said: Yes, I agree. Varys definitely craves power. Not necessarily in his own name though, I think he's well aware how unlikely that would be. Yes I agree, I was going to add this part, ''it leaves one to pursue other things'', one doesn't mean himself directly pursuing it, but more than likely pursuing someone, who he believes is the rightful monarch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Baratheon's hammer Posted August 15, 2017 Author Share Posted August 15, 2017 37 minutes ago, Charlie Hustle said: Well, King Robert was going to bring the kigdom into poverty. He never cared for ruling the kingdom, he just loved being able to fuck all the hoes he can get his hands on. And drink all the wine he could get his lips on. The Kindom was bleeding money under his reign, and he didnt care. So, of course varys knew Robert wasnt a good king. Yes the crown was in a lot of debt when Robert was in charge but is the solution really to start a war and bring a foreign army who have a completely different culture to that of Westeros to overthrow the king and put someone in his place who he knows little about. What happens if that king/queen isn't up to his standards either? Another war? Not to mention this war to get another leader would cost an enormous amount in human life and money. Bringing the kingdom into even more debt and a lot more poverty. The people would suffer the most from this plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noneofyourbusiness Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Advising Aerys not to open the gates for the sacking of King's Landing isn't necessarily a bad thing. Rape, pillaging... And without the Lannister forces coming in, Aerys wouldn't have been stimulated to burn the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illiterati Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Varys has shown himself to be a walking, breathing hypocrisy at every turn. I don't take him at his word that he wants the best for the people. That's the expedient story for him right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 40 minutes ago, Illiterati said: Varys has shown himself to be a walking, breathing hypocrisy at every turn. I don't take him at his word that he wants the best for the people. That's the expedient story for him right now. He might even believe it himself, don't underestimate the power of denial (as I'm sure Varys would be the first to tell you, heh). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heronfriend91 Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 There is, to a great degree, internal consistency within Varys' actions. Robert Baratheon was a lecherous, ineffectual sot who was bleeding the realm dry in Summer, the time when the coffers and larders should be filled, not emptied. Furthermore the claws of Tywin Lannister, a man who time and again demonstrated a willingness to slaughter wholesale anyone who even nominally opposed him, rich and poor alike, and set his own family above all others, were sunk deeply into Robert, effectively making him a tool of Lannister ambition. This was not good for the realm in any way, shape, or form. Viserys was far from an ideal candidate, but he actually had some claim, unlike anyone else who could oppose Robert. House Tyrell, House Martell, House Arryn, House Greyjoy, House Stark...none of these great Houses had anything close to a claim that the other Great Houses would support, with only House Tyrell strong enough to even really stand up to Tywin. This left House Baratheon, already in power and under the domination of House Lannister, or the exiled House Targaryen. One supposes that he could have backed Renly, but such a thing would have been a tough sell to many of the other Great Houses, as we saw. House Targaryen, for better or worse, it was. Viserys Targaryen was a spiteful, petty, and paranoid little man, this is undeniable. The Dothraki are brutal, violent, and enslaving rapists, this is also undeniable. Yet, with them there was at least as much hope for a better world as with Joffrey Baratheon and Tywin's dogs (i.e. Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch, and their ilk). It was obvious what Joffrey and Tywin were, but Viserys and Daenerys we're still relative unknowns, and more easily manipulated by Varys and his allies than Tywin and Joffrey. It was a terrible choice to make, but what is the better option: stick with the horrible thing you have going or gamble on something that could end up better? Do I think Varys was making a good decision? No. But the hand he was dealt was very, very bad so I find it hard to blame him for making a gamble in hopes of a better chance for long term stability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Hustle Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 31 minutes ago, heronfriend91 said: There is, to a great degree, internal consistency within Varys' actions. Robert Baratheon was a lecherous, ineffectual sot who was bleeding the realm dry in Summer, the time when the coffers and larders should be filled, not emptied. Furthermore the claws of Tywin Lannister, a man who time and again demonstrated a willingness to slaughter wholesale anyone who even nominally opposed him, rich and poor alike, and set his own family above all others, were sunk deeply into Robert, effectively making him a tool of Lannister ambition. This was not good for the realm in any way, shape, or form. Viserys was far from an ideal candidate, but he actually had some claim, unlike anyone else who could oppose Robert. House Tyrell, House Martell, House Arryn, House Greyjoy, House Stark...none of these great Houses had anything close to a claim that the other Great Houses would support, with only House Tyrell strong enough to even really stand up to Tywin. This left House Baratheon, already in power and under the domination of House Lannister, or the exiled House Targaryen. One supposes that he could have backed Renly, but such a thing would have been a tough sell to many of the other Great Houses, as we saw. House Targaryen, for better or worse, it was. Viserys Targaryen was a spiteful, petty, and paranoid little man, this is undeniable. The Dothraki are brutal, violent, and enslaving rapists, this is also undeniable. Yet, with them there was at least as much hope for a better world as with Joffrey Baratheon and Tywin's dogs (i.e. Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch, and their ilk). It was obvious what Joffrey and Tywin were, but Viserys and Daenerys we're still relative unknowns, and more easily manipulated by Varys and his allies than Tywin and Joffrey. It was a terrible choice to make, but what is the better option: stick with the horrible thing you have going or gamble on something that could end up better? Do I think Varys was making a good decision? No. But the hand he was dealt was very, very bad so I find it hard to blame him for making a gamble in hopes of a better chance for long term stability. truth!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMudz Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Charlie Hustle said: truth!!! 1 hour ago, heronfriend91 said: There is, to a great degree, internal consistency within Varys' actions. Robert Baratheon was a lecherous, ineffectual sot who was bleeding the realm dry in Summer, the time when the coffers and larders should be filled, not emptied. Furthermore the claws of Tywin Lannister, a man who time and again demonstrated a willingness to slaughter wholesale anyone who even nominally opposed him, rich and poor alike, and set his own family above all others, were sunk deeply into Robert, effectively making him a tool of Lannister ambition. This was not good for the realm in any way, shape, or form. Viserys was far from an ideal candidate, but he actually had some claim, unlike anyone else who could oppose Robert. House Tyrell, House Martell, House Arryn, House Greyjoy, House Stark...none of these great Houses had anything close to a claim that the other Great Houses would support, with only House Tyrell strong enough to even really stand up to Tywin. This left House Baratheon, already in power and under the domination of House Lannister, or the exiled House Targaryen. One supposes that he could have backed Renly, but such a thing would have been a tough sell to many of the other Great Houses, as we saw. House Targaryen, for better or worse, it was. Viserys Targaryen was a spiteful, petty, and paranoid little man, this is undeniable. The Dothraki are brutal, violent, and enslaving rapists, this is also undeniable. Yet, with them there was at least as much hope for a better world as with Joffrey Baratheon and Tywin's dogs (i.e. Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch, and their ilk). It was obvious what Joffrey and Tywin were, but Viserys and Daenerys we're still relative unknowns, and more easily manipulated by Varys and his allies than Tywin and Joffrey. It was a terrible choice to make, but what is the better option: stick with the horrible thing you have going or gamble on something that could end up better? Do I think Varys was making a good decision? No. But the hand he was dealt was very, very bad so I find it hard to blame him for making a gamble in hopes of a better chance for long term stability. But Tywin was an excellent ruler. His tenure as hand under Aerys marked a period of prosperity which only ended when Aerys's paranoia and madness started. Tywin had brutal methods but he was an excellent administrator and exerted complete control when he was hand to Joffrey. That scene where he sends him to bed was evidence of that. As long as we was alive the realm would have prospered with him in control. So Varys should have recognised that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Hustle Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 The realm would have prospered, but the lannisters would have prospered more. He would have had a death choke on the realm and monopolized its inheritance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran the Shipper Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Varys is a character that I have a very hard time understanding, because I don’t trust most of what he says. I would trust his actual background and from that we can try and deduce some of his motives. The most obvious being his hatred of magic. This however puts him completely at odds with being the Targaryen supporter that he claims to be since the Targaryen line is heavily tied to magic. I think his talk with Tyrion in this episode brings to light that he is not on Daenerys’ side. If he is correct that the right advice can prevent Dany from falling into madness then the unspoken truth is that the wrong advice could push her over the edge. And if the Targaryen madness isn’t something that is inherent in the person then bad advice could be what caused the Aerys to go mad. Who was the man whispering into the king’s ear all the tales of potential threats, driving him mad with paranoia? That would be Varys. But Aerys going mad is most certainly not what was best for the realm, but if what Varys wants is the eradication of the Targaryen line, it certainly helped on that front. By supporting Viserys/Dany’s claim to the throne he can bring them back into the game and under his sway. Where he can then ensure their destruction in a way that would not be possible if they were left free to wander the free cities of Essos. I don’t think that he and Illyrio see eye to eye on this plan and Illyrio is likely completely unaware and is being used by Varys. I don’t really have much proof to these theories but I definitely don’t trust him. His actions do not support his claim to be for the realm and his background (and dislike of fire and blood magic specifically) does not lend itself to him being a Targaryen loyalist like he claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Baratheon's hammer Posted August 15, 2017 Author Share Posted August 15, 2017 6 hours ago, heronfriend91 said: There is, to a great degree, internal consistency within Varys' actions. Robert Baratheon was a lecherous, ineffectual sot who was bleeding the realm dry in Summer, the time when the coffers and larders should be filled, not emptied. Furthermore the claws of Tywin Lannister, a man who time and again demonstrated a willingness to slaughter wholesale anyone who even nominally opposed him, rich and poor alike, and set his own family above all others, were sunk deeply into Robert, effectively making him a tool of Lannister ambition. This was not good for the realm in any way, shape, or form. Viserys was far from an ideal candidate, but he actually had some claim, unlike anyone else who could oppose Robert. House Tyrell, House Martell, House Arryn, House Greyjoy, House Stark...none of these great Houses had anything close to a claim that the other Great Houses would support, with only House Tyrell strong enough to even really stand up to Tywin. This left House Baratheon, already in power and under the domination of House Lannister, or the exiled House Targaryen. One supposes that he could have backed Renly, but such a thing would have been a tough sell to many of the other Great Houses, as we saw. House Targaryen, for better or worse, it was. Viserys Targaryen was a spiteful, petty, and paranoid little man, this is undeniable. The Dothraki are brutal, violent, and enslaving rapists, this is also undeniable. Yet, with them there was at least as much hope for a better world as with Joffrey Baratheon and Tywin's dogs (i.e. Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch, and their ilk). It was obvious what Joffrey and Tywin were, but Viserys and Daenerys we're still relative unknowns, and more easily manipulated by Varys and his allies than Tywin and Joffrey. It was a terrible choice to make, but what is the better option: stick with the horrible thing you have going or gamble on something that could end up better? Do I think Varys was making a good decision? No. But the hand he was dealt was very, very bad so I find it hard to blame him for making a gamble in hopes of a better chance for long term stability. I agree there are plenty of cruel savages in Westeros but here he would be bringing an army of savages. This gamble is incredibly risky with a deadly cost to the people. so many variables and things that could go wrong. I'm sure he could found a lest costly/risky way of helping the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Baratheon's hammer Posted August 15, 2017 Author Share Posted August 15, 2017 4 hours ago, SerMudz said: But Tywin was an excellent ruler. His tenure as hand under Aerys marked a period of prosperity which only ended when Aerys's paranoia and madness started. Tywin had brutal methods but he was an excellent administrator and exerted complete control when he was hand to Joffrey. That scene where he sends him to bed was evidence of that. As long as we was alive the realm would have prospered with him in control. So Varys should have recognised that. If there ever was a word to describe Tywin it would be pragmatic. He may be cruel but he gets things done and is very competent as was proved when he was hand. He recognized Aerys madness and seemed to also be very aware of Jofferys. Varys could have helped counsel Tommen and made him into a great king. This would be far more beneficial for the kingdoms than bringing a Targaryen with the Dothraki over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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