Varys a man of the people???

[Samwell_Tarly]

3 hours ago, Robert Baratheon's hammer said:

If there ever was a word to describe Tywin it would be pragmatic. He may be cruel but he gets things done and is very competent as was proved when he was hand. He recognized Aerys madness and seemed to also be very aware of Jofferys. Varys could have helped counsel Tommen and made him into a great king. This would be far more beneficial for the kingdoms than bringing a Targaryen with the Dothraki over.  

As much as I hated Tywin he was a great hand. Meanwhile with Varys if he want a Targaryen restoration by putting Viserys back on the throne,could this confirm he was a Targaryen loyalist...???? On the outset you would say no he wasnt due alot he things he does. Varys is a very mysterious character, unlike LF, who slightly mysterious , but what he does is normally quite clear to see why. 

Im not going to write paragraphs on why he does and doesnt support the Targaryens, but I think hes played a bigger undercover role than we think, shifting and planting seeds. Will he somehow shift Daenerys Targaryen into power and ultimately unite the Seven kingdoms, all before a WW invasion.  Pretty convenient would you say.... a monarch with dragons and a massive army?

[heronfriend91]

3 hours ago, Robert Baratheon's hammer said:

I agree there are plenty of cruel savages in Westeros but here he would be bringing an army of savages. This gamble is incredibly risky with a deadly cost to the people. so many variables and things that could go wrong. I'm sure he could found a lest costly/risky way of helping the people.

You make a valid point. I'm not convinced Varys is the best at doing what he claims he wishes to. To be honest, if his plan was really to restore the Targaryen dynasty under Viserys he was half-assing it at best. I wonder if his goal wasn't to unite the disparate parts of the realm that ended up being the major players in the Wot5K against a common enemy at the expense of the Targaryens at first. A single Khalasar against a united pre-Wot5K Westeros, even a Khalasar as big as Drogo's, would have been no contest. Just speculation on my part, but so was my previous post. However you slice it, he didn't seem all that committed to one side or another up until Daenerys began her war against slavery. That may have been the deciding factor.

Ultimately, though, it's still possible (if not probable) to see a certain consistency in his goals and actions in regards to helping the common people. He aspires for a realm united, preferably under a competent and compassionate monarch. Sometimes that does require a little short-term bloodshed in exchange for long-term stability, if in fact there is such a thing.

On the idea of a united, stable realm: it is difficult to have such a thing when the reigning monarch has historically been your equal. By what right does the wolf judge the lion? Why not extend that to it's logical conclusion. By what right does the stag judge the kraken? The fish judge the falcon? The rose judge the sun? The Dragon once stood above them all, and (in the realm of the show, not books) there was peace. After all, when the High Lord's play their game of thrones it's the small folk who suffer. If one family unequivocally holds that throne then peace may be possible.

Just some thoughts.

[chasing the dragons]

I think book Varys is a Targaryen (Blackfyre) and his book goals are to see the Targs back on the throne. Show Varys is never mentioned as a Targ (would've fit in nicely as a scene in Season 6 ep 10) This whole "I just want a just ruler, not ME of course, someone else could do it, I just need to approve them" is kinda whack. Especially since Varys knows all the tunnels in KL but they mentioned in the show how all the builders were put to the sword to keep the secret passages safe. 

[Robert Baratheon's hammer]

7 hours ago, chasing the dragons said:

I think book Varys is a Targaryen (Blackfyre) and his book goals are to see the Targs back on the throne. Show Varys is never mentioned as a Targ (would've fit in nicely as a scene in Season 6 ep 10) This whole "I just want a just ruler, not ME of course, someone else could do it, I just need to approve them" is kinda whack. Especially since Varys knows all the tunnels in KL but they mentioned in the show how all the builders were put to the sword to keep the secret passages safe. 

Yes I agree the books Varys makes far more sense than the show Varys. Varys actions in the show from season 1 to now do not align with his motives. 

[Armand Gargalen]

As much as I love discussing about Varys, I am afraid we won´t get any surprises from his character in the show. The showrunners have gone full into "Good Guys Team", AKA "Followers of the Dragonchick Who Wants to Break the Wheel Team" and I highly doubt they will surprise us with a last minute betrayal. 

All those inconsistencies between his stated motives and the consequences of his actions that the OP so wisely addressed are based on book Varys, and unless the George specifically instructed D&D about him, they have no clue what to do with the character.

  

[Lucius Lovejoy]

On 8/15/2017 at 8:39 AM, Samwell_Tarly said:

Regarding Varys motives I think there is one scene which sums it up. 

Oberyn walks into the Throne room and the Camera pans back revealing Varys stood staring at the Iron Throne. 

Varys says ''the absence of desire leaves one to pursue other things'' and oberyn says ''such as'', Varys turns his head and stares at the IronThrone. 

I think he plan is to gain absolute power and the whole realm for his self.

Part of me thinks D&D just put this scene in the show because it was really cool and a good scene for Oberyn who was a boss on the show, not because it made any sense.  By part of me thinks I mean that all of me knows.

Show Varys only has a two motives.

1.  To make equally clever witticisms back to Tyrion.

2.  To be contrarian to whatever character he is talking to that isn't Tyrion.

[Armand Gargalen]

2 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Part of me thinks D&D just put this scene in the show because it was really cool and a good scene for Oberyn who was a boss on the show, not because it made any sense.  By part of me thinks I mean that all of me knows.

Show Varys only has a two motives.

1.  To make equally clever witticisms back to Tyrion.

2.  To be contrarian to whatever character he is talking to that isn't Tyrion.

You summed it up perfectly. You are definitely a "great judge of character".

[Littlefinger of the Hand]

From the times of the Mad King to "modern times", several DECADES have passed. Don't analyze Varys as one stable unchanged person. Within these decades Varys' personality has evolved, Varys's plans are evolved, and Vary's power evolved. His purposes have changed many times as his potentials grow bigger. 

Moreover, one huge mistake everyone makes. A schemer like Varys can't plan everything. His ability is to shape his plans accordingly to the dynamic ever-changing reality, in order to achieve his final goals.

[falcotron]

16 minutes ago, Littlefinger of the Hand said:

From the times of the Mad King to "modern times", several DECADES have passed. Don't analyze Varys as one stable unchanged person. Within these decades Varys' personality has evolved, Varys's plans are evolved, and Vary's power evolved. His purposes have changed many times as his potentials grow bigger. 

Yes, this is a good point.

And there's another point I think people are missing. How could the same man who supports Dany because she'll be a good ruler for the people have ever supported Aerys? Remember that there was a plot to dethrone Aerys in favor of Rhaegar (or install Rhaegar as regent). If Varys was part of that plot, then it would make sense to keep Aerys on the throne, and keep things as stable as possible, until the plot was ready. And that's enough to explain how a "man of the people" could have done everything Varys did on Aerys's behalf.

And put the two together: It's quite possible that Varys now considers that to have been a mistake, and one he's learned from. Supporting a bad king temporarily for pragmatic reasons while running a long-term secret plot may have seemed clever, but it's hard to imagine a worse backfire than starting the wrong civil war and being forced to back the wrong King and lose to a different wrong King.

I think that things are going to be more nuanced in the books than the show. If he really is an idealist, he won't be a nice 21st century constitutional democrat, he'll have far more radical ideas, possibly tinged by vengeance as much as idealism. I could even see GRRM setting him up as a sort of Marat character, who dies at just the right time to become a martyr for Dany's ideals (and for every other radical and reformer for centuries to come), and we don't even find out the details of what he really wanted and why.

 

 

[Robert Baratheon's hammer]

5 hours ago, falcotron said:

Yes, this is a good point.

And there's another point I think people are missing. How could the same man who supports Dany because she'll be a good ruler for the people have ever supported Aerys? Remember that there was a plot to dethrone Aerys in favor of Rhaegar (or install Rhaegar as regent). If Varys was part of that plot, then it would make sense to keep Aerys on the throne, and keep things as stable as possible, until the plot was ready. And that's enough to explain how a "man of the people" could have done everything Varys did on Aerys's behalf.

And put the two together: It's quite possible that Varys now considers that to have been a mistake, and one he's learned from. Supporting a bad king temporarily for pragmatic reasons while running a long-term secret plot may have seemed clever, but it's hard to imagine a worse backfire than starting the wrong civil war and being forced to back the wrong King and lose to a different wrong King.

I think that things are going to be more nuanced in the books than the show. If he really is an idealist, he won't be a nice 21st century constitutional democrat, he'll have far more radical ideas, possibly tinged by vengeance as much as idealism. I could even see GRRM setting him up as a sort of Marat character, who dies at just the right time to become a martyr for Dany's ideals (and for every other radical and reformer for centuries to come), and we don't even find out the details of what he really wanted and why.

 

 

I don't think Varys was part of the plot to overthrow Aerys and install Rhaegar. I'm pretty sure he informed Aerys that Rhaegar was organizing the tourney at Harrenhall to get all the lords together to discuss the removal of Aerys. Having heard that, Aerys decided to leave the red keep for the first time in 4 years to attend this tourney. If Varys was part of the plot why would he make Aerys paranoid?

I do agree however with the sentiment that people can change over time and do make mistakes.