Football: The grind begins

[Consigliere]

A little surprised that Rooney has called time on his international career as I thought his move to Everton was to ensure more game time and improve his chances of making the WC squad. Not a bad decision by Rooney if this ends up prolonging his club career. Shearer's goals record is within sight.

[Jordan La Cabra]

Never mind the question of who the next captain will be. The real question is who is going to be the new scapegoat for the English media? Rooney wore that crown well for 13 years. Going to be a big job trying to fill those boots!

[Mark Antony]

12 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Never mind the question of who the next captain will be. The real question is who is going to be the new scapegoat for the English media? Rooney wore that crown well for 13 years. Going to be a big job trying to fill those boots!

Sterling probably 

[Philokles]

Kane or Henderson would be the sensible choice, but Rooney was clearly on the way out in 2014 and still got it.

 

In other news, Spurs have signed Paulo Gazzaniga. Delighted to see him doing well, though knowing Pochettino and coming from the same place undoubtedly helped.

[Jordan La Cabra]

1 minute ago, Mark Antony said:

Sterling probably 

He'll be up there, definitely.

Harry Kane is another option. He got his fair amount of stick after Euro 2016.

[Jordan La Cabra]

Just now, Horse of Kent said:

Kane or Henderson would be the sensible choice, but Rooney was clearly on the way out in 2014 and still got it.

That was Roy Hodgson's choice, though. So far, I have a feeling Gareth Southgate has a bit more sense than Hodgson had. Remains to be seen...

[Mme Erzulie]

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Now comes the debacle over who will be next England captain. Let the media circus commence...

Give it to Trent Alexander-Arnold and be done with it. Captain for the next 20 years. What a hero.

Honestly haven't been this excited/nervous about a Liverpool game in a long time. 

If we win and get a favourable draw in the group stages, who knows where we could end up? This has the feeling of a year where an "underdog" team might challenge. Bayern and Barca seem out of sorts, Neymar's PSG are untested as of yet, and Liverpool have shown they can go toe to toe with all the top English sides in head-to-head matchups. 

Before you laugh me out of the room, it might be worth to take a look at the squad we won the 2005 CL with. Yes, we had a couple of worldies, notably Gerrard and Alonso, but we also had Djimi Traore, Harry Kewell, Milan Baros, Djibril Cisse, Jerzy Dudek (who despite his heroics in the final was not a top class keeper) and Steve Finnan. We had Igor Biscan, Josemi and Antonio Nunez (who?) on the bench, FFS. I'd fancy our current squad against that team. 

Obviously, it's a long shot, but winning tonight would be huge, also in terms of getting new players in before the window closes or in January.

[mormont]

50 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Not a bad decision by Rooney if this ends up prolonging his club career. Shearer's goals record is within sight.

You really think Rooney is going to score another 60 goals in however many years he has left at the top level? Three, maybe four if he's lucky?

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I wouldn't have thought Hart would be a candidate. Given the way he has been shifted out on loan at club level and the fact his form has dropped to the point that Jack Butland or Jordan Pickford would be a better choice in goal for England, I can't see his status as undisputed no. 1 lasting much longer.

Pickford isn't ready, I'd have said, and Butland isn't indisputably better than Hart yet. And I say that as someone who has always thought Hart was over-hyped.

[ljkeane]

26 minutes ago, Mme Erzulie said:

Before you laugh me out of the room, it might be worth to take a look at the squad we won the 2005 CL with. Yes, we had a couple of worldies, notably Gerrard and Alonso, but we also had Djimi Traore, Harry Kewell, Milan Baros, Djibril Cisse, Jerzy Dudek (who despite his heroics in the final was not a top class keeper) and Steve Finnan. We had Igor Biscan, Josemi and Antonio Nunez (who?) on the bench, FFS. I'd fancy our current squad against that team.

Nah, I have to disagree. We were fairly limited going forward, basically reliant on Gerrard and occasionally Garcia, pulling off some magic but we had a very solid defence and central midfield. That's a decent foundation for a cup side. The current team are terrible defensively and good in attack, but tend to struggle against packed defences. That's a pretty awful set up to win cup competitions.

I don't think there's much hope at all of Liverpool pulling off an upset win of the whole thing but we do have the potential to cause good teams difficulties if they come out and play against us so we might have some fun games before we crash out.

[baxus]

I'd have to agree with @ljkeane on this one. 2005 Xabi Alonso and Gerrard make all the difference in the world. Hell, Xabi Alonso could make the current Liverpool squad without breaking a sweat had he not retired.

Regarding Liverpool's chances in the Champions League this year, it's way to early to count those chickens. It would depend a lot on, first and foremost, making it past Hoffenheim tonight which is anything but a foregone conclusion and after that the group stage draw. Liverpool are far from European best at the moment and all it takes to make advancing from the group very difficult for them is to get drawn with a top tier European club. I don't think Liverpool would be without chances against Barca, given Barca's recent form, but Barca would definitely be favourites in those matches. I wouldn't rate Liverpool's chances of beating tight, organized teams highly either. It's not that difficult to imagine Mane, Firmino, Sallah and Coutinho (I'm not giving up on him just yet  ) repeatedly failing to break through Atletico's defensive setup and Atletico scoring on a breakaway.

[Jordan La Cabra]

Unfortunately it is becoming harder and harder for 'outsiders' to win the Champions League. If you look at the last decade, only Chelsea winning in 2012 is a case where a team that wasn't fancied ended up winning the competition.

You could say that Atletico managed to get to two finals in three years, but they've also been regularly getting to the semis, too. Even if Atletico were to win it next year, it would be hard to call them an outsider anymore.

It would obviously be nice to see someone that isn't a usual suspect win the competition, but I fear no side in Europe is a match for Real Madrid, right now. My money would be on them going one better and winning an unprecedented third straight Champions League title.

Liverpool have a great history in this competition, but none of the members of the current squad were even part of the team that lost to AC Milan in the final 10 years ago. This is a completely different Liverpool team, whose best European experience was losing in the Europa League final to Sevilla.

Teams that surprise in the Champions League tend to be defensively sound and smart tactically when it comes to knockout fixtures. Think Chelsea in 2012, Atletico getting to two finals, Rafa's Liverpool in 2005, Mourinho's Porto in 2004 and to a lesser extent, you could throw in Mourinho's Inter in 2010. This current Liverpool side's weakness is its defence, which puts them at a disadvantage when and if they came up against teams like Real Madrid and Bayern Munich.

[Consigliere]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

You really think Rooney is going to score another 60 goals in however many years he has left at the top level? Three, maybe four if he's lucky?

Breaking the record is a long shot but he could get mighty close.

 

Chances are Liverpool get a tough group should they get past Hoffenheim given that the spots in pot 1 and 2 are already filled up meaning they would go into pot 3.

[ljkeane]

21 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Breaking the record is a long shot but he could get mighty close.

Doubt it. There's no way Rooney's getting close to averaging 15-20 goals a season into his mid 30s. He looks a bit better than I thought he would at Everton but he doesn't look that good, plus with his legs already gone at 31 it's only going to get worse.

24 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Chances are Liverpool get a tough group should they get past Hoffenheim given that the spots in pot 1 and 2 are already filled up meaning they would go into pot 3.

Despite being pretty negative about our overall chances if we get through tonight I think we might do alright in the group stages.

People talk a lot about Liverpool playing a gegenpressing style, I've seen a few comments about trying so hard to keep Coutinho when Klopp's entire philosophy is built around not having to focus attacks through a playmaker, but there aren't actually that many opportunities to play that way in the league. Most teams have cottoned onto the fact that not playing with the ball in your own half and waiting for a set piece opportunity/defensive error is a pretty good way to beat Liverpool. We tend to looks miles better when we actually are allowed to play the way Klopp wants to.

I think in the group stages without so much pressure to grind out results there are a lot of teams who'd back themselves to come out and play against Liverpool which definitely plays to our strengths. Atletico or Juve would probably be bad 'big' teams to draw. The problem is I'm not sure how capable we are of doing it consistently with two games in a week.

[Mme Erzulie]

54 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

It would obviously be nice to see someone that isn't a usual suspect win the competition, but I fear no side in Europe is a match for Real Madrid, right now. My money would be on them going one better and winning an unprecedented third straight Champions League title.

Liverpool have a great history in this competition, but none of the members of the current squad were even part of the team that lost to AC Milan in the final 10 years ago. This is a completely different Liverpool team, whose best European experience was losing in the Europa League final to Sevilla.

Teams that surprise in the Champions League tend to be defensively sound and smart tactically when it comes to knockout fixtures. Think Chelsea in 2012, Atletico getting to two finals, Rafa's Liverpool in 2005, Mourinho's Porto in 2004 and to a lesser extent, you could throw in Mourinho's Inter in 2010. This current Liverpool side's weakness is its defence, which puts them at a disadvantage when and if they came up against teams like Real Madrid and Bayern Munich.

Real Madrid do indeed look very impressive. I'm not saying I think anyone should bet their life savings on Liverpool winning the CL.

I'd be worried if we still had a lot of players from 2007 still playing for us today. 

Here's where I think a lot of people are underestimating or misjudging Klopp's LFC: They are fucking deadly when they're the underdog, i.e. when teams come out to play. Liverpool didn't lose to another top 6 PL side in the league last season. We won five and drew five.

And yes, it was pre-season, but we demolished Bayern as well. We're much better against stronger opposition. Atletico Madrid are an exception among the big European teams, in that their whole setup is destructive and defensive.

 

1 hour ago, baxus said:

I'd have to agree with @ljkeane on this one. 2005 Xabi Alonso and Gerrard make all the difference in the world. Hell, Xabi Alonso could make the current Liverpool squad without breaking a sweat had he not retired.

Regarding Liverpool's chances in the Champions League this year, it's way to early to count those chickens. It would depend a lot on, first and foremost, making it past Hoffenheim tonight which is anything but a foregone conclusion and after that the group stage draw. Liverpool are far from European best at the moment and all it takes to make advancing from the group very difficult for them is to get drawn with a top tier European club. I don't think Liverpool would be without chances against Barca, given Barca's recent form, but Barca would definitely be favourites in those matches. I wouldn't rate Liverpool's chances of beating tight, organized teams highly either. It's not that difficult to imagine Mane, Firmino, Sallah and Coutinho (I'm not giving up on him just yet  ) repeatedly failing to break through Atletico's defensive setup and Atletico scoring on a breakaway.

33 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Breaking the record is a long shot but he could get mighty close.

 

Chances are Liverpool get a tough group should they get past Hoffenheim given that the spots in pot 1 and 2 are already filled up meaning they would go into pot 3.

But group 1 consists of teams like Spartak Moscow and Shaktar Donetsk, a heavily depleted Monaco and Benfica. Group two actually looks tougher on paper if you disregard Real, Bayern and Juve. Barca, Atletico, Sevilla, Dortmund, both Manchester clubs and PSG? People will be praying they draw Porto from that group (who are no slouches themselves).

In conclusion, I think Liverpool are about 85 % to win the treble this season. 

YNWA

[baxus]

25 minutes ago, Mme Erzulie said:

Real Madrid do indeed look very impressive. I'm not saying I think anyone should bet their life savings on Liverpool winning the CL.

I'd be worried if we still had a lot of players from 2007 still playing for us today. 

Here's where I think a lot of people are underestimating or misjudging Klopp's LFC: They are fucking deadly when they're the underdog, i.e. when teams come out to play. Liverpool didn't lose to another top 6 PL side in the league last season. We won five and drew five.

And yes, it was pre-season, but we demolished Bayern as well. We're much better against stronger opposition. Atletico Madrid are an exception among the big European teams, in that their whole setup is destructive and defensive.

 

But group 1 consists of teams like Spartak Moscow and Shaktar Donetsk, a heavily depleted Monaco and Benfica. Group two actually looks tougher on paper if you disregard Real, Bayern and Juve. Barca, Atletico, Sevilla, Dortmund, both Manchester clubs and PSG? People will be praying they draw Porto from that group (who are no slouches themselves).

In conclusion, I think Liverpool are about 85 % to win the treble this season. 

YNWA

Liverpool averaged 2 points per match against other top 6 PL sides. Would you care to guess what they averaged in the league over the entire season? Yup, it's 2 points per match. They do not get better results against better teams, they just get better results than people expect them to. That's it.

Last summer, Liverpool demolished Barcelona 4-0 (or maybe 5-0, even) and still wouldn't have won the Champions League, even if they somehow managed to qualify. There is no doubt that Liverpool COULD get a great result in the Champions League, it's just highly unlikely to see them in the semifinals or finals. I mean, bookies give odds on every single team in it winning the competition so there is a possibility.  

Let's be a bit more serious now, do you think for a moment that Liverpool could beat Real or Juventus in knockout stages? Or Bayern for that matter, despite beating them in the preseason? Not saying that this Liverpool team is bad, just that for this season I'd be happy to see them advancing from the group stages.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

36 minutes ago, Mme Erzulie said:

And yes, it was pre-season, but we demolished Bayern as well. We're much better against stronger opposition. Atletico Madrid are an exception among the big European teams, in that their whole setup is destructive and defensive.

Yes, but beating Bayern this pre-season wasn't as big a feat as it sounds like. They played rather poor throughout the pre-season.

[Jordan La Cabra]

18 minutes ago, baxus said:

Let's be a bit more serious now, do you think for a moment that Liverpool could beat Real or Juventus in knockout stages? Or Bayern for that matter, despite beating them in the preseason? Not saying that this Liverpool team is bad, just that for this season I'd be happy to see them advancing from the group stages.

What's quite a shame is that that question applies to all 5 English clubs who could enter the group stages of the Champions League this year. 

Right now, I wouldn't give any of the English clubs a chance against Real Madrid. Perhaps Bayern, as I think someone like Chelsea or Man United could get a result against them over two legs. But Real Madrid are the standard bearers for European football, and all the English clubs are quite far away from that level, I feel.

[ljkeane]

7 minutes ago, baxus said:

Liverpool averaged 2 points per match against other top 6 PL sides. Would you care to guess what they averaged in the league over the entire season? Yup, it's 2 points per match. They do not get better results against better teams, they just get better results than people expect them to. That's it.

Er, what? Isn't actual results versus expected results exactly how you'd measure performance? Averaging the same points against the other top 6 teams as they did against a sample including another 14 worse teams is doing better against better teams.

[Jordan La Cabra]

1 minute ago, Soylent Brown said:

If we qualify I kind of want a tough group. Not so much because we often do a little better against that type of team, but just because it's been so long since we've played competetive games against the big boys.

And to make amends for the last time Liverpool were in the CL, when they got drawn in a group with Real Madrid, and during their away fixture at the Bernabau, Brendan Rodgers started the likes of Manquillo, Allen, Markovic and Borini, while leaving Gerrard, Henderson, Coutinho and Sterling on the bench.

[Consigliere]

1 hour ago, Mme Erzulie said:

In conclusion, I think Liverpool are about 85 % to win the treble this season. 

YNWA

Not sure about that. There are a few question marks over Liverpool, viz. defensive frailties, game management and depth. While Liverpool are entertaining to watch and have the potential to run through teams, too many of their games tend to be frenetic affairs. There have been a number of games that Liverpool could have seen out in third gear but they continued throwing players forward, end up conceding a silly goal or two and then have to expend more energy than was necessary to get a result. This didn't prove too costly last season even though the team did look leggy at times in the second half of the season. Having to play midweek games right from the outset this term combined with questionable depth, I think it is a fair question to ask whether the squad will start to run out of gas at the business end of the season.