Pigeon Pie

Show!Rhaegar: You're Not Really Meant to Look That Deeply into Him.

30 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Or, How Game of Thrones Bastardized Rhaegar to Unbastardize Jon. 

I wrote this short study of show!Rhaegar on my tumblr today, I hope you enjoy reading it. It contains spoilers of both the books and the show so far. (AND BEFORE REPLYING PLEASE CHECK THIS OUT, IT'S JUST TWEETS THEY'LL TAKE A MINUTE BUT YOU NEED TO SEE THEM)

So, now that I can finally access the internet from my computer for an unlimited amount of time, I wanted to write down what you’re meant to make of show!Rhaegar, why he annulled his marriage to Elia (even though that shouldn’t even be possible) and how close he is to being book!Rhaegar. And while we’re at it, let me tell you all the reasons why book!Rhaegar would never do such a thing (even if he could.)

I have definitely gotten a lot of inspiration and ideas from @lyannas and @oadara especially about annulment and the complications of Jon being and then not being a bastard, and gotten a lot of useful info from A Wiki of Ice and Fire.  So huge thanks <3 The article contains mentions of rape.

 

To begin this, we need to take a look back on what the show has made of Rhaegar so far, and the differences between the show and the book depictions

1. In season one, Robert mentions Rhaegar’s kidnapping of Lyanna, but not in detail, just that Rhaegar did something bad to Lyanna. At the end of the season, in episode 10, Bran mentions specifically that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and that Robert started a war for that and killed him, but Lyanna died. Somewhere in the middle of the season, Jorah mentions that Rhaegar was the last dragon while “Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake” painting Rhaegar, for the first time on the show, in a positive light. 

Now, one thing in season one that interested me that nobody else ever notices (or if they do notice, they never talk about it) is when Jon was having a talk with Aemon. I always watched this conversation carefully as it is the first time that Jon communicated with a Targaryen and heard him speak of the family. One odd thing that Aemon said that I noticed is, (as well as I can remember) “But when I heard how they murdered my brother’s son, and his poor son, and the children... even the little children,” and then Aemon later clarifies the line of the latest Targaryen kings on the show, saying that his father was Maekar, and then Aemon’s brother Aegon V (Egg) ruled after him, and then came his son Aerys. This is unlike the books where Aerys is actually the son of Jaehaerys II, not Aemon V, so there’s a king in between that the show skipped. 

Back to the first quote now. When Aemon said “They killed my brother’s son,” he was talking about Aerys. “And his poor son,” that’s Rhaegar. Why would Aegon talk about Rhaegar especially that way? Was there some type of connection between them? Why would Aemon sympathize with Rhaegar especially? In the books, we know that Aemon exchanged letters with Rhaegar, but on the show, Aemon is now dead and we never knew (unless there’s going to be a flashback or if someone is going to find Rhaegar’s letters in Aemon’s records at Castle Black, but I don’t personally think the show gives so much regards to continuity or that Castle Black is going to exist for very long at all.)

2. In season 3, Barristan gives Dany a talk about Rhaegar and how he fought at the battle of the trident and how his men died for him because they believed in him and loved him. Again, Rhaegar is painted in a positive light, as a charismatic and well-loved leader who inspired loyalty. 

3. In season 4, the very first episode. Oberyn finally appears to give us the perspective of Elia’s family on Rhaegar’s deeds. Oberyn calls Rhaegar “beautiful and noble” sarcastically and says that he left Elia for another woman after Elia had been nothing but good and kind to him and his children. He also went as far as to say that Elia loved Rhaegar. What kind of love did he mean? Did she truly love Rhaegar or was she “fond” of him? We can’t tell. 

4. In season 5, the writers seemed to be in a hurry to catch up with reminding us who Rhaegar is, by inserting talks about him twice in one episode, for pretty long conversations. That is, of course, episode 4, in which Littlefinger tells Sansa the story of the tourney of Harrenhal as we all know it, quite objectively, and then asks, “How many men had to die because Rhaegar chose your aunt?” and Sansa replies, “Yes, he chose her, and then he kidnapped her and raped her.” The second time he is mentioned in that episode shows how much contrast there is between the two ways people see Rhaegar, when Barristan again paints him in a positive light by telling Dany that he liked to walk among the people, sing to them, give money to orphans and poor singers, and that he never liked killing, but loved singing. 

5. And of course, in season six, came the (bastardized) conversation between Ned and the three (now two) Kingsguard at the ToJ, most importantly Arthur. Ned reminds them of Rhaegar’s defeat and asks them why they weren’t there to protect him, and Arthur replies that Rhaegar wanted them at the ToJ. And at the end of the season, Bran presses play and we resume watching this scene, leading up to the big R+L=J reveal. 

6. In season seven, we are told that he (somehow????) convinced the High Septon at the time to annul his (four-year, consummated) marriage to Elia and married him to Lyanna (or to “someone else” as Gilly puts it, but we all know it’s Lyanna) in a secret ceremony in Dorne. 

So, what has the show missed?

1. In all of this, there isn’t a peep about the prophecy, when in the books we are told three times that Rhaegar cared about it and it motivated his actions a great deal: a. At the House of the Undying b. When we’re told that he found a scroll that changed his life and made him feel that he “must become a warrior” and c. When Maester Aemon discusses his communications with Rhaegar concerning the prophecy with Sam. So, as far as the show is concerned, Rhaegar never even heard the word prophecy, and would think The Prince that Was Promised was the name of a rock band if he heard of him. 

So, the part of Rhaegar’s character that escaped with Lyanna because they must have a child together who is ice + fire (and I plan on exploring why this had to be the case, why Lyanna specifically when he could have had a third child on any milkmaid or handmaiden on Dragonstone with no political consequences) basically doesn’t exist on the show. Show!Rhaegar was NOT motivated by the prophecy (and I know one could argue that he is but we just haven’t heard that yet, but I personally find it weird that we haven’t heard about this whatsoever in seven seasons, when we could have seen the scene at the HotU or at least been told by Aemon or even Barristan).

2. Rhaegar as a melancholic (potentially clinically depressed) person and an intellectual scholar is not mentioned. Again, in the books, those are important aspects of Rhaegar’s personality that also seemed to motivate his actions and affect his way of thinking. 

3. Rhaegar as a politician is not mentioned. We don’t hear anything about the rift between him and his father, his plans to establish a regency/overthrow Aerys, his possible involvement in organizing the tourney of Harrenhal, and the fact that he held his own court at Dragonstone and had his own backing. Show!Rhaegar doesn’t seem to have politics in mind much either.

So, what does the show tell us about Rhaegar?

That Rhaegar never once thought of himself as a prophetic figure/a father to one. That he was a man who liked the smallfolk and mingling with them. That Rhaegar was charismatic, well-loved, the last dragon, and seemed like a sympathetic figure to someone as smart as Maester Aemon. And finally, that he ran away with Lyanna Stark and annulled his marriage for her, and at this point, only one reason for that is left by process of elimination: Love. 

So, basically what the show did, is try to simplify Rhaegar into someone that the viewer doesn’t need to look too deeply into. He was a spirited singer who didn’t care about politics but loved the people (who here wants to bet that show!Rhaegar also called all the nobles fake, made fun of fat noblewomen and made a lot of dick jokes?) and he was married to Elia for political reasons/because he needed to marry someone, but along came Lyanna Stark, he fell in love, and set aside everything (including his own family) to marry her, not even caring about all the political repercussions because, hey, he’s spirited! And all the nobles are fake! Who cares about politics, kids? Of course he later paid with his life and the lives of his entire family, but who cares, still got laid.

It’s basically the same thing that the show did with Jaime. Take a complex character that has a core struggle and a life mission, simplify it into a one-dimensional character that doesn’t really require any effort to understand or depict.

Now, if we look completely away from Rhaegar... why would the showmakers do this whole annulment nonsense, you say? Why did they waste screentime on it and energy writing it? Because Jon Snow is their favorite, and bastardy is such a bad thing (not just an invented and bigoted Westerosi social stigma) that, on his nameday, they decided to take it away and give him legal rights to a kingdom that he never wanted, fought for or thought of having. Even though bastardy wouldn’t have affected his ability to be a hero, and even though we already have a legal claimant with an army and three dragons, who’s struggled and fought plenty for that kingdom, there’s a small problem: She’s a woman, and she’s not everyone’s favorite like Jon Snow is. Must keep the ratings up, guys. 

Now, as to all the reasons why book!Rhaegar would never annul his marriage to Elia (even if it were possible, which it isn’t, because their marriage was beyond a shadow of doubt consensual and consummated, and Rhaegar needs to be a king to set her aside and take another wife, which he wasn’t yet. Source)

1. Let’s assume that Rhaegar absolutely held no value for Elia whatsoever and had no problem giving her the ultimate humiliation of annulment. Elia is a princess of Dorne, and Dorne has only ever joined the fold of Westeros by marriage. No Targaryen king was able to defeat Dorne and forcibly make it kneel to him. If Elia is returned to Dorne with such an insult as setting her aside, this threatens that Dorne might disassociate itself from the rest of Westeros again, taking away a huge asset from Rhaegar (the Dornish were his biggest allies against his father.)

2. For reasons mentioned here by Lyannas, it’s most likely that this annulment would result in Rhaenys and Aegon becoming bastards. Not only would Rhaegar not do that to his children who are also important prophetic figures to him (two heads of the dragon) but also it threatens civil war in the future. If Dorne decides to not only remove itself from Rhaegar’s backing but also align themselves behind Aegon against Lyanna’s (”legitimate”) children in the case that Rhaegar does become the king and the line of succession continues normally, a civil war similar to the Blackfyre Rebellion could break and the future of House Targaryen will be majorly threatened. Who has time for that when you’re trying to stop a zombie apocalypse? 

Book!Rhaegar may have been a lot of things, but he wasn’t that big an idiot as to jeopardize his future on the throne and the future of his children like this. But of course, show!Rhaegar who was practically an idiot had no problem with all that.

I want to conclude by saying that we have been looking at show!Rhaegar the wrong way. We’ve all had book!Rhaegar in mind while thinking about show!Rhaegar, but the truth is, they’re two completely different people. And while book!Rhaegar is smart and sensible enough to know that he couldn’t and shouldn’t annul his marriage to Elia, show!Rhaegar, who is merely a wasteful bastardization of everything that Rhaegar is, totally would. He’s a miracle man who was able to obtain an annulment from a marriage as steady as rocks because he’s THE Rhaegar Targaryen. And while thousands of metas and rereadings have been done to understand the dilemma of book!Rhaegar, show!Rhaegar only needs you to clear your mind of book!Rhaegar, watch the show, and enjoy his jackassery. 

Oh, poor George...

 

Edited by Pigeon Pie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

So, the part of Rhaegar’s character that escaped with Lyanna because they must have a child together who is ice + fire (and I plan on exploring why this had to be the case, why Lyanna specifically when he could have had a third child on any milkmaid or handmaiden on Dragonstone with no political consequences) basically doesn’t exist on the show. Show!Rhaegar was NOT motivated by the prophecy

Rhaegar did not went after Lyanna to make a child of ice and fire, he only wanted another kid, because the dragon has three heads, this is all in the books.

Rhaegar truly believed it was his son with Elia that was this prophesied prince. Rhaegar had no idea that his kid with Lyanna would be the prophesied prince he was after.

Since he needed more children, Rhaegar chose Lyanna as his new wife because he probably loved her. That's why we are told the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, to know how they fell in love.

We also learn in the House of the Undying why Rhaegar would want to go after Lyanna and marry her, because his wife couldn't have more children, and he needed more. It's simple math dude, believe me, Rhaegar had no "ice and fire stuff" in his head when he went after Lyanna.

 

3 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

In all of this, there isn’t a peep about the prophecy,

It would be nice if there was, but it is not needed really, Melissandre can tells us about the prophecy. That's not to say, Rhaegar did more than read books about prophecy day and night, Barristan himself says some things he used to do, and this is enough for the viewer to have an idea of how he was and why men followed him into battle.

 

3 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

Rhaegar as a politician is not mentioned. We don’t hear anything about the rift between him and his father,

This is not important for the show, but in the History and Lore of Westeros(those extras that comes with the Blu-Ray), it is mentioned in the video about the Knight of the Laughing Tree that Rhaegar arranged the tourney to take Aerys from the throne.

 

3 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

In season seven, we are told that he (somehow????) convinced the High Septon at the time to annul his (four-year, consummated) marriage to Elia and married him to Lyanna

Elia could not have children anymore, and another pregnancy would have killed her, there you have it, the reason/justification to end it. George mentions Elia's health here and there, because this is the justification used to end the marriage.

 

3 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

Let’s assume that Rhaegar absolutely held no value for Elia whatsoever and had no problem giving her the ultimate humiliation of annulment.

Dude, if he held no value for her, he would just get her pregnant again(which would kill her) and be done with it. Instead, he did not, that doesn't say something to you?

An annulment is not the end of the world, her son would still be king after Rhaegar, but now she did not have to bother to have children anymore, which is a very good thing for her. People only try to see the bad side of things, it's unbelievable.

 

3 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

For reasons mentioned here by Lyannas, it’s most likely that this annulment would result in Rhaenys and Aegon becoming bastards.

The examples mentioned by Lyannas are the ones where the annulment made the children illegitimate, she did not mention those where the children where kept legitimate.

One good example would be Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII of France, they had an annulment when their marriage was on the rocks, with the pope’s approval. The consanguinity (which didn’t prevent them from getting married in the first place) was a legal Band-Aid to cover up what was, functionally, a divorce. Their two daughters were not bastardized in the process, because Louis did not want their daughters to lose their legitimacy.

That's not to say, even today an annulment doesn't make a child illegitimate, as long as the child was born during the marriage.

 

3 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

Now, as to all the reasons why book!Rhaegar would never annul his marriage to Elia (even if it were possible, which it isn’t, because their marriage was beyond a shadow of doubt consensual and consummated, and Rhaegar needs to be a king to set her aside and take another wife, which he wasn’t yet. Source)

 

He doesn't need to be a king to annul his marriage, he only needs to give a good reason to the High Septon.

And yes, his marriage will be annuled in the books as well, that's why George talks about Elia's health here and there. That's the only reason Rhaegar could give to annul his marriage and have a legitimate child with Lyanna.

Also, George himself talked with a fan about Sansa having an annulment in her marriage with Tyrion back in 2000(it was mentioned on Reddid yesterday i think), and George said that any of the partners can annul the marriage, both Sansa and Tyrion.

Those where George R.R. Martin's own words, you clearly don't need to be a king to annul a marriage.

 

3 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

Oh, poor George...

Dude, George has this in mind.

 

3 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

Elia is a princess of Dorne, and Dorne has only ever joined the fold of Westeros by marriage. No Targaryen king was able to defeat Dorne and forcibly make it kneel to him. If Elia is returned to Dorne with such an insult as setting her aside, this threatens that Dorne might disassociate itself from the rest of Westeros again, taking away a huge asset from Rhaegar (the Dornish were his biggest allies against his father.)

 

Dorne would still hold great influence in Rhaegar's court under Aegon, Elia's son and heir to the Iron Throne. You're making too much out of it.

 

3 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

while book!Rhaegar is smart and sensible enough to know that he couldn’t and shouldn’t annul his marriage to Elia,

He shouldn't do this, but if he does, he needs to have a good reason for it, and he did have a good reason/justification to end the marriage. Rhaegar wants more children, but Elia will die if she has more.

People wanted Aerys the first (not the second) to put aside his wife because they tought he didn't like her, and this is one terrible reason to end a marriage.

Rhaegar had a good and reasonable reason to end his marriage to Elia, her life would be in danger if she had another kid, and Rhaegar needed more kids. There's nothing Dorne could do about this really, they would have to be content with the fact that at the very least, Elia's son will be king(or would have been).

 

If Rhaegar goes to Doran and says that he needs more children, but that it would be too dangerous for Elia to have more, what you think Doran would say or think? he would have hated the idea, but he would know very well that Rhaegar would need a new wife.

 

 

Edited by theMADdestScientist_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Rhaegar did not went after Lyanna to make a child of ice and fire, he only wanted another kid, because the dragon has three heads, this is all in the books.

Rhaegar truly believed it was his son with Elia that was this prophesied prince. Rhaegar had no idea that his kid with Lyanna would be the prophesied prince he was after.

Since he needed more children, Rhaegar chose Lyanna as his new wife because he probably loved her. That's why we are told the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, to know how they fell in love.

We also learn in the House of the Undying why Rhaegar would want to go after Lyanna and marry her, because his wife couldn't have more children, and he needed more. It's simple math dude, believe me, Rhaegar had no "ice and fire stuff" in his head when he went after Lyanna.

This doesn't make sense. If Rhaegar believed that any third child of his would make do as the third head of the dragon, why not just have it with any common girl, thus resulting in no political repercussions that would destroy his family? The justification that "Oh he just loved Lyanna" makes him a POS. This is the only description fit for a man who endangered his family like that just because he loved a girl who wasn't his wife. Like, sorry dude, you fell in love but also if you pursue that love you're going to cause a civil war which could result in the death of your entire family. The choice should be obvious.

12 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

 

2 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

In all of this, there isn’t a peep about the prophecy,

It would be nice if there was, but it is not needed really, Melissandre can tells us about the prophecy. That's not to say, Rhaegar did more than read books about prophecy day and night, Barristan himself says some things he used to do, and this is enough for the viewer to have an idea of how he was and why men followed him into battle.

 

2 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

Rhaegar as a politician is not mentioned. We don’t hear anything about the rift between him and his father,

This is not important for the show, but in the History and Lore of Westeros(those extras that comes with the Blu-Ray), it is mentioned in the video about the Knight of the Laughing Tree that Rhaegar arranged the tourney to take Aerys from the throne.

The show has wasted time on many things that have no importance whatsoever. You would think the prophecy that constitutes the title of the series and the person who worked towards fulfilling it deserve an honorable mention, especially when the actions of said person towards fulfilling it are so crucial to the main story. I understand what you're saying about the political part, but from the annulment the decision itself, it appears that the show isn't just being hush-hush about Rhaegar's politics, but deliberately making him a political dumb*ss. 

16 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Elia could not have children anymore, and another pregnancy would have killed her, there you have it, the reason/justification to end it. George mentions Elia's health here and there, because this is the justification used to end the marriage.

That's definitely not a good enough justification according to the faith, especially that Elia had already delivered not just an heir, but also a daughter AKA everything that was required of her as the wife of the crown prince. The only justifications according to the faith are 1. If the marriage was not consummated and the parties involved/one of them wants out 2. If one of the two parties was forced into the marriage.

19 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Dude, if he held no value for her, he would just get her pregnant again(which would kill her) and be done with it. Instead, he did not, that doesn't say something to you?

An annulment is not the end of the world, her son would still be king after Rhaegar, but now she did not have to bother to have children anymore, which is a very good thing for her. People only try to see the bad side of things, it's unbelievable.

He doesn't get a gold star for not killing his wife. Also if he had gotten her pregnant anyway, the baby itself could have died, thus not delivering a third head of the dragon at all. 

20 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

The examples mentioned by Lyannas are the ones where the annulment made the children illegitimate, she did not mention those where the children where kept legitimate.

One good example would be Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII of France, they had an annulment when their marriage was on the rocks, with the pope’s approval. The consanguinity (which didn’t prevent them from getting married in the first place) was a legal Band-Aid to cover up what was, functionally, a divorce. Their two daughters were not bastardized in the process, because Louis did not want their daughters to lose their legitimacy.

That's not to say, even today an annulment does't make a child illegitimate, as long as the child was born during the marriage.

The examples where the children were not bastardized are few compared to the other ones, though, and it's still pretty risky business. Even if Aegon had remained legitimate and Rhaegar's rightful heir, who's to say that his mother being set aside won't still cause some to feel like he isn't the rightful king in the future, especially with the fact that many Westerosi are racist against Dornishmen and will feel that the white, "more Westerosi" Starks are better consorts. Civil wars have broken in the history of the Targaryens for less. This situation would be way too similar to that of Aegon the Unworthy. I don't think any Targaryen king, including Rhaegar, would want to be remembered for that.

24 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

He doesn't need to be a king to annul his marriage, he only needs to give a good reason to the High Septon.

And yes, his marriage will be annuled in the books as well, that's why George talks about Elia's health here and there. That's the only reason Rhaegar could give to annul his marriage and have a legitimate child with Lyanna.

Also, George himself talked with a fan about Sansa having an annulment in her marriage with Tyrion back in 2000(it was mentioned on Reddid yesterday i think), and George said that any of the partners can annul the marriage, both Sansa and Tyrion.

Those where George R.R. Martin's own words, you clearly don't need to be a king to end a marriage.

Again, Elia's health is NOT a good reason in the books, nor should it have been on the show, for annulment. If this were the case, we'd hear about many more annulments in Targaryen Kings' history. The only annulment we ever heard of was that of Baelor the Blessed, and it was possible only because the marriage is unconsummated. 

26 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Dorne would still holds great influence in Rhaegar's court under Aegon, Elia's son and heir to the Iron Throne. You're making too much out of it.

Like I already mentioned, it's much more likely that Aegon would be bastardized by the annulment than not. Not a single great house in Westeros would take something like annulment lightly. I mean, Tywin was so insulted by Aerys just declining to marry Cersei to Rhaegar that he resigned as hand of the king, let alone someone take a PRINCESS OF DORNE as his wife, then set her aside after she had done her duty and given him two children, one of them a healthy male heir. 

I think you're the only thinking too lightly of annulment. An annulment is NOT a divorce. It's not a simple "Sorry, we just didn't get along so it had to end," it's unmaking a marriage as if it never happened. What basically happened here is that show!Rhaegar took the daughter of a great house that had held on to its sovereignty for a long time, used her to produce heirs, then deemed her unsatisfactory when she could no longer deliver more, and decided to erase her from his life and isolate her and her family politically. It's a slap in the face. 

31 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

He shouldn't do this, but if he does, he needs to have a good reason for it, and he did have a good reason/justification to end the marriage. Rhaegar wants more children, but Elia will die if she has more.

People wanted Aerys the first (not the second) to put aside his wife because they tought he didn't like her, and this is one terrible reason to end a marriage.

Rhaegar had a good and reasonable reason to end his marriage to Elia, her life would be in danger if she had another kid, and Rhaegar needed more kids. There's nothing Dorne could do really, they would have to be content with the fact that at the very least, Elia's son will be king(or would have been).

 

If Rhaegar goes to Doran and says that he needs more children, but that it would be too dangerous for Elia to have more, what you think Doran would say or think? he would have hated the idea, but he would know very well that Rhaegar would need a new wife.

Well, what other options does Rhaegar have to obtain a third child?

If the child being of Stark blood is not of paramount importance (which I think it is) like I said he could have had it on any servant girl in Dragonstone with zero repercussions. There's no mention anywhere that the child has to be a legitimate Targaryen to be a third head of the dragon (heck, I don't think it needs to have Targaryen blood at all) and therefore Rhaegar didn't even have to marry Lyanna or annul his marriage to Elia at all. This is just the show's poor writing and turning Rhaegar from a person who cared about the world's fate and tried to save it by fulfilling a prophecy, to a love struck idiot who abandoned his family to marry a sixteen year old girl, all because they wanted Jon to have a legitimate claim to the throne. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have no idea idea what the actual grounds were for for the annulment.  We don't know what liberty the High Septon has in granting such, and we do not know how he was prevailed upon.

It's pointless at best and highly misleading to pretend that the rules of the Roman church apply to Westeros, let alone to the Targaryens who were special in all things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

We have no idea idea what the actual grounds were for for the annulment.  We don't know what liberty the High Septon has in granting such, and we do not know how he was prevailed upon.

It's pointless at best and highly misleading to pretend that the rules of the Roman church apply to Westeros, let alone to the Targaryens who were special in all things.

All the information about the children of an annulled marriage and annulment and its possible grounds have been drawn from 1. A Wiki of Ice and Fire 2. The similarities between The Faith of the Seven and Catholicism, especially that there are no previous cases by which we can judge the situation (and really, the fact that no Targaryen ruler before has been capable of doing this no much how big a rift between him and his wife there was, that fact alone should tell people how stupid this whole annulment situation is.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

Like, sorry dude, you fell in love but also if you pursue that love you're going to cause a civil war which could result in the death of your entire family. The choice should be obvious.

Look closer, hindsight is not the best to way to look at the rebellion. No one, no one would ever thought that such a thing would happen. Rhaegar did took Lyanna and contributed to the war, but Brandon and especially Aerys's actions also contributed to it.

People(including Rhaegar) only saw that Aerys was truly insane after he killed Brandon and Rickard, before this they thought he was just nuts.

Not even Rhaegar thought it was a good thing to reason with Aerys, and the entire realm called him the mad king by that point(as Catelyn confirms in ACOK), as to mock him, but they did not know that he was truly insane yet. Nonetheless, Brandon(not Rickard) goes there and does what even Rhaegar did not, would you call it a smart move? please.

Rhaegar, Aerys and Brandon contributed to the war, and probably others we don't know the name yet.

 

5 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

it appears that the show isn't just being hush-hush about Rhaegar's politics, but deliberately making him a political dumb*ss. 

Truth being told, he was not. If we take Lyanna out of the equation, we don't have Rhaegar making any decisions without good/fair reasons, we don't have nothing to use against him that would qualify him as a "political dumb'ss". He wisely avoided any conflict with Aerys at Harrenhal, even if he organized the tourney to end his reign. He only annuled his marriage with Elia when he found a reasonable reason to do it, one that Dorne would understand, even if they did not like it(they would have hated it).

 

But Rhaegar committed a serious mistake in taking Lyanna the way he did, the way he managed the situation was...terrible and insensible to say the least.

 

5 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

That's definitely not a good enough justification according to the faith, especially that Elia had already delivered not just an heir, but also a daughter AKA everything that was required of her as the wife of the crown prince. The only justifications according to the faith are 1. If the marriage was not consummated and the parties involved/one of them wants out 2. If one of the two parties was forced into the marriage.

 

These are some of the reasons that one can use to end a marriage, not the only ones. If you have a different reason, they will listen to you, just as the church always did back then. And if your reason/justification to end the marriage is reasonable, they will grant you an annulment.

Yes, you are correct, Elia did her duty, we know this, but this is not about her, it's about the fact that Rhaegar wants more children(legitimate children), and due to Elia's health, it would be far too dangerous for her to have more kids.

 

5 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

He doesn't get a gold star for not killing his wife. Also if he had gotten her pregnant anyway, the baby itself could have died, thus not delivering a third head of the dragon at all. 

So? he could have made another child with his new wife after Elia and their kid had died.

The only reason for Rhaegar not to impregnate Elia again, is because he did not want her to die, is that simple. This is a good example that he was not eager to do "everything" for prophecy, but that he would do what he could.

 

5 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

Even if Aegon had remained legitimate and Rhaegar's rightful heir, who's to say that his mother being set aside won't still cause some to feel like he isn't the rightful king in the future, especially with the fact that many Westerosi are racist against Dornishmen and will feel that the white, "more Westerosi" Starks are better consorts. Civil wars have broken in the history of the Targaryens for less. This situation would be way too similar to that of Aegon the Unworthy. I don't think any Targaryen king, including Rhaegar, would want to be remembered for that.

It would have been for Rhaegar to say to the others who is his heir(for him, it was his son with Elia), and it would be for him to manage the situation. Rhaegar had good examples thanks to Viserys I and the Dance of the Dragons, so he had an idea of what not to do when you have legitimate children from two different wives.

 

Rhaegar died, so, there is no point in talking about this, but i would have been very interested to see how he would have managed the situation.

5 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

Again, Elia's health is NOT a good reason in the books, nor should it have been on the show, for annulment. If this were the case, we'd hear about many more annulments in Targaryen Kings' history. The only annulment we ever heard of was that of Baelor the Blessed, and it was possible only because the marriage is unconsummated. 

I answered this already, but again, he wanted more children, and he needed to give a good and reasonable reason to the High Septon to give him an annulment. It seems he found one.

 

5 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

Like I already mentioned, it's much more likely that Aegon would be bastardized by the annulment than not. Not a single great house in Westeros would take something like annulment lightly. I mean, Tywin was so insulted by Aerys just declining to marry Cersei to Rhaegar that he resigned as hand of the king, let alone someone take a PRINCESS OF DORNE as his wife, then set her aside after she had done her duty and given him two children, one of them a healthy male heir. 

Everything that happened with Tywin was personal. Tywin resigned as hand of the king because he could not suffer being shamed by Aerys anymore, which included not only the betrothal Tywin wanted, but much more stuff as well.

As for the other Great Houses not taking it lightly, that's none of their business. Remember when the Tyrells were plotting to make Robert set Cersei aside and marry Margaery instead? they didn't seem to care about what the other houses would think of it, great or small houses, they simply did not care, because it was not their problem, the others simply had nothing to do with it.

 

5 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

I think you're the only thinking too lightly of annulment. An annulment is NOT a divorce. It's not a simple "Sorry, we just didn't get along so it had to end," it's unmaking a marriage as if it never happened. What basically happened here is that show!Rhaegar took the daughter of a great house that had held on to its sovereignty for a long time, used her to produce heirs, then deemed her unsatisfactory when she could no longer deliver more, and decided to erase her from his life and isolate her and her family politically. It's a slap in the face. 

I know very well what an annulment is, as i also know that there is no easy precedent to make a legitimate child illegitimate.

You are correct, the marriage would cease to exist completely, but for as long as it existed, any children born from that marriage would be considered legitimate. It worked this way back then, and it works almost the same way nowadays.

The thing about an annulment, is that it almost looks like a divorce, the difference is that it erases the marriage completely, but what you did during that marriage still remains, and by "what you did", i mean the children of course. To make a legitimate child illegitimate, is not something easy.

To put it simply, an annulment is a complex process, where many things can happen in various different ways,

 

5 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

If the child being of Stark blood is not of paramount importance (which I think it is) like I said he could have had it on any servant girl in Dragonstone with zero repercussions. There's no mention anywhere that the child has to be a legitimate Targaryen to be a third head of the dragon

Rhaegar pretty much said how things are. When Aegon was born, he gave him a name fit for a king, and said that he needed one more child, because he had only two. He did not want bastards, he pretty much made it clear.

One could argue that he could have had a bastard on a servant girl in Dragonstone, and then legitimized him/her. But in the end, it's not the same, besides cheating on his wife, he would have had to legitimize and give a claim to the Iron Throne to the child of a peasant. Can you imagine it? a prince born from a servant girl, in Westeros, has a claim to the Iron Throne, this would be disgraceful.

The solution? he married a highborn woman(it does not matter if it has Stark blood for him) after he ended his marriage, because the son of a highborn woman would be much more acceptable.

 

5 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

a love struck idiot who abandoned his family to marry a sixteen year old girl, all because they wanted Jon to have a legitimate claim to the throne. 

I'm very indifferent to this argument, his children were safe in Dragonstone, Elia was safe in Dragonstone, it was the war that made everything look worse.

As for Lyanna, treat her like any other betrothed girl/women, Rhaegar had to act quickly if he wanted to marry her, otherwise her father could have married her to Robert Baratheon at any moment. Rhaegar acted swiftly, though he handled the situation very badly afterwards, even if Brandon going to King's Landing was an unpredictable act.

Edited by theMADdestScientist_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Rhaegar did not went after Lyanna to make a child of ice and fire, he only wanted another kid, because the dragon has three heads, this is all in the books.

Rhaegar truly believed it was his son with Elia that was this prophesied prince. Rhaegar had no idea that his kid with Lyanna would be the prophesied prince he was after.

Since he needed more children, Rhaegar chose Lyanna as his new wife because he probably loved her. That's why we are told the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, to know how they fell in love.

We also learn in the House of the Undying why Rhaegar would want to go after Lyanna and marry her, because his wife couldn't have more children, and he needed more. It's simple math dude, believe me, Rhaegar had no "ice and fire stuff" in his head when he went after Lyanna.

 

 

My theory is: he believed that Aegon is the one until he found The Pact of Ice and Fire - a marriage agreement between Targs and Starks that was never fulfilled. So I guess he found out about that Pact somewhere in between Harrenhall and Lyanna's abduction and then he pursued Lyanna. I think the fact that he was in love just enhanced his confidence that he is on the right track with the prophecy. Let's be fair Aegon does not fit the description of Ice and Fire combo - Martells are not associated with ice at all.  I wonder how Rheagar explained the  "His is the song of Ice and Fire" when he was talking about Aegon.

Rhaegar thought that he was the Prince at first, but that's also ridiculous - can't see any ice. He probably thought that he should fight Ice, but I do not recall anything about fighting ice in the PtwP prophecy.

Anyway, it was Prince in the prophecy he needed and not a King, so Aegon and Rhaenys could rule and his Ice and Fire child could be a prince.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:
18 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Rhaegar did not went after Lyanna to make a child of ice and fire, he only wanted another kid, because the dragon has three heads, this is all in the books.

Rhaegar truly believed it was his son with Elia that was this prophesied prince. Rhaegar had no idea that his kid with Lyanna would be the prophesied prince he was after.

Since he needed more children, Rhaegar chose Lyanna as his new wife because he probably loved her. That's why we are told the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, to know how they fell in love.

We also learn in the House of the Undying why Rhaegar would want to go after Lyanna and marry her, because his wife couldn't have more children, and he needed more. It's simple math dude, believe me, Rhaegar had no "ice and fire stuff" in his head when he went after Lyanna.

This doesn't make sense. If Rhaegar believed that any third child of his would make do as the third head of the dragon, why not just have it with any common girl, thus resulting in no political repercussions that would destroy his family? The justification that "Oh he just loved Lyanna" makes him a POS. This is the only description fit for a man who endangered his family like that just because he loved a girl who wasn't his wife. Like, sorry dude, you fell in love but also if you pursue that love you're going to cause a civil war which could result in the death of your entire family. The choice should be obvious.

I don't think he thought he was going to cause a civil war by falling in love with Lyanna. I could be wrong but just my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, TheMachine said:

I don't think he thought he was going to cause a civil war by falling in love with Lyanna. I could be wrong but just my opinion.

Maybe when news of Brandon's trip to King's Landing, and the subsequent events resulting in his and his father's deaths, Rhaegar looked at Lyanna and said:

"You told me your family was totally okay with all this.  So why does everyone think I kidnapped you?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that people aren't supposed to put much thought into show Rhaegar.  He isn't even a character on the show at all.

Show Rhaegar is basically....

Half the realm loved him and thought he was awesome.....half the realm didn't.......he caused a war that left Robert on the IT.......he annulled his first marriage and is the real father of Jon Snow.......making Jon Snow the rightful heir (by blood) to the Iron Throne.

That's all the show says about Rhaegar and it is really all that is needed on the show to get to where they are going.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lord Okra said:

I agree that people aren't supposed to put much thought into show Rhaegar.  He isn't even a character on the show at all.

Show Rhaegar is basically....

Half the realm loved him and thought he was awesome.....half the realm didn't.......he caused a war that left Robert on the IT.......he annulled his first marriage and is the real father of Jon Snow.......making Jon Snow the rightful heir (by blood) to the Iron Throne.

That's all the show says about Rhaegar and it is really all that is needed on the show to get to where they are going.

Perfect summary.  While I think Daenerys has a better claim technically than Jon, and really I believe right of conquest is the only claim that should effectively matter, this is what show Rhaegar's role is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Woooooow. 

The thing is, the show didn't need to simplify Rhaegar for him to be "bastardized". People already hate Rhaegar regardless of how deep the story goes. It's really a love hate thing in both books and show which mirror's the realm's attitude beautifully. 

People hate Rhaegar because he was "prophecy obsessed" or appreciate the presence of the prophecy because it gives another layer to Rhaegar's motivations for starting a relationship with Lyanna other than love. 

People hate Rhaegar because they believe he kidnapped (and raped) Lyanna or they love him because they believe they loved each other and ran off. 

People hate Rhaegar because he was irresponsible and selfish and like him because he was passionate and romantic. 

People hate Rhaegar because Lyanna was (or wasn't) underage (in the context or by modern standards), and excuse that because close to everybody else was underage (and least by modern standards if not in the context too) when married off. 

People hate Rhaegar because he annulled (assuming that was possible and did happen, as told in the show) his wife and appreciate him for the same thing because it's way more honorable to get a divorce than to just walk out on a spouse or be polygamist. 

People hate Rhaegar because he was a brooding emo and love him because he was sensitive and artistic and romantic or excuse him because he was "clinically depressed" (as if that was a concept that exists in the context). 

People hate Rhaegar for not removing his father sooner and respect him as one of the few characters (on the show at least) honorable enough to not have murdered a relative. 

People love or hate Rhaegar based on their impressions, moral and ideological beliefs, culture, upbringing, taste in men, sympathy triggers etc and line up their arguments accordingly. Loving or hating Rhaegar is about us not Rhaegar, he is the same character, we just see him in different lights according to our own personalities. The show didn't put Rhaegar in a worse or better light, they barely changed the light he was in, which is so dim with the amount of information we have about this character that we can barely see him anyway. Maybe that's why the opinions of him are so contradicting. we have room to think more into him than we do into other characters that are way more visible and better outlined  through actions and more (detailed) descriptions from more sources. 

I like Rhaegar and his illogical annulment doesn't affect that at all, because I view it as more of a fair play than just cheating on Elia. Yes, we don't know how this complies with laws and the religion of the seven but the opposite wasn't established at least, so this is still more believable than the crowning of Cersei Lannister (after laws of succession and her criminal record had been established over and over again in the previous seasons). 

In further defense of this ridiculous record in a citadel diary, it's not unheard of that a secret marriage is officiated at the will of a monarch and against better judgment (see Robb stark and Talisa - historically an agreement of marriage was in certain times, in certain places, also considered a lawful agreement not to be broken on a whim), and the location's being Dorne is no more odd than in the case of the Tower of Joy which is unarguable book canon and a constant topic of discussion as well (why on earth would Rhaegar take Lyanna there and why on earth would the Dornish tolerate this). As for Rhaegar's children, let's not be over dramatic, it takes one piece of paper and a king's (who was soon going to be Rhaegar himself at that time) seal to legitimize them after the annulment, this was the case in the Tudor situation as well, to which Rhaegar's annulment has been compared to as real life example (Henry just issued an act restoring Mary and Elizabeth to the line of succession a few years after annulling/beheading their mothers). 

 

Edited by RhaenysB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The show did it this way because an annulment allows the audience to understand that jon is legitimate. I think in the books we will get polygamy as a way for jon to be a targaryen. Its been set up with previous targaryens through history including aegon the conquerer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/15/2017 at 5:25 PM, Pigeon Pie said:

That's definitely not a good enough justification according to the faith, especially that Elia had already delivered not just an heir, but also a daughter AKA everything that was required of her as the wife of the crown prince. The only justifications according to the faith are 1. If the marriage was not consummated and the parties involved/one of them wants out 2. If one of the two parties was forced into the marriage.

Why are so many people so sure that they know what the laws of Westeros and the Faith are in detail? We have very little to go on—and what little we have tells us that the laws are no more detailed and unambiguous than those of medieval England and Catholicism.*

It's like claiming that there's no way Argilac the Arrogant could have beaten the Dornish invasion of the Stormlands. We have virtually no facts except the fact that Argilac did in fact win that war, so obviously it was plausible for him to have done so. Likewise, in this case, we have virtually no facts except the fact that the High Septon did in fact proclaim the annulment, so obviously it was plausible for him to have done so.

Every case we read about in the books or see or hear about on the show is decided by the relevant Lord, King, or Septon more on pragmatic and diplomatic reasons (or a trial by combat, or a war…) than on legal arguments or matters of fact. Maybe a legal argument has to be good enough to not be so patently ridiculous that it's insulting, but that's about it.

And if you want to bring up real life, let's look at the most famous case in history:** Was Henry VIII's case for annulment of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon right or wrong? Who cares? Nobody ever argued the ecclesiastical or theological merits of Wolsey's reading of Leviticus, or the facts of the case, or the applicability of any precedents.*** Plenty of people, on the other hand, argued about setting aside the aunt of England's strongest ally, marrying a woman from an ambitious family, marrying a woman connected to the religious Reformer faction, questions of praemunire facias, etc. The last of those eventually escalated to the point where England created the Anglican Church. The actual annulment question, on the other hand, was basically irrelevant once Parliament and Francis I accepted Henry's marriage to Anne and Charles V didn't raise a fuss over it.

 

So, could Rhaegar have gotten the High Septon to agree to an annulment? We don't know his reading of the diplomatic situation, or his relations with Rhaegar, Aerys, or the Dornish, or what kind of Septon he was, or really anything that would have gone into that decision. Based on what we know, both answers are perfectly plausible. Which means that if the show (or the next book) picks one or the other, it's ridiculous to claim that it's wrong, or implausible.

 

* If you're going to suggest that England didn't have much written down, but it developed a strong common-law system based on precedents anyway—then yes, that's true, and once Westeros becomes a constitutional monarchy with professional judges and lawyers, rather than a feudal system with lieges sitting in judgment, they'll probably be on the way to the same thing. But that's clearly well in the future.

** And this is even after what's usually considered the medieval era.

*** There was, a few years later, an official canon law judgment by Archbishop Cranmer, but it was entirely concerned with whether Parliament was right to accept Wolsey's authority without consulting the Pope even before the Act in Restraint of Appeals, and even though Wolsey turned out to be convicted of treason over the whole mess, not with whether Wolsey was right or wrong in the first place. Meanwhile, Clement never gave an opinion on the case, even after excommunicating Henry and Cranmer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

As for Rhaegar's children, let's not be over dramatic, it takes one piece of paper and a king's (who was soon going to be Rhaegar himself at that time) seal to legitimize them after the annulment, this was the case in the Tudor situation as well, to which Rhaegar's annulment has been compared to as real life example (Henry just issued an act restoring Mary and Elizabeth to the line of succession a few years after annulling/beheading their mothers). 

 

^ this. 

Henry VIII only made Mary and Elizabeth bastards to get back at their mothers whilst having them divorced/beheaded. It wasn't because of the divorce or annulment itself. If it was, then he wouldn't have been able to legitimise them again later...with just a piece of paper. 

And just reading up about the other annulemnt under the Catholic Church makes things a lot easier. King Louis and Eleanor of Aquitaine were married and had 2 daughters. However they had a unhappy marriage and both of them decided to have the marriage annulled, but they did not make their daughter bastards whilst doing so. It seems as if they could have chosen if they wanted to or not - but they chose not to. Eleanor and Loius both went on to marry other people, and no one had a problem with it - it was that easy. Rhaegar and Elia's situation could have been like this to.

People assume too much when finding out Rhaegar had an annulment. This seems to automatically make him a jerk because he 'abandoned' Elia and his kids and ran off with Lynanna because he was 'prophecy obsessed.' Except it's more likely Elia agreed - because if she decided to stay in the marriage, she would have been obliged to give Rhaegar another kid because of prophecy/inheritance reasons...which she couldn't do. Then people would have regarded  Rhaegar as a jerk for impregnanting Elia and killing her because of it. This scenario of annulment and taking another wife would be much better, and he would actually be doing Elia a favour by doing so. And anyway, the books could always go with the polygamy route - so who knows? 

People are making wild assumptions on Rhaegar's annulment and Elia's feelings and how big of a hypocrite Lyanna was - except this doesn't get them anywhere because a). Everyone seems to see facts and theories in a different light and b). We are 2 WHOLE books short of evidence, so why are such personal opinions on R+L being formed now?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

People assume too much when finding out Rhaegar had an annulment. This seems to automatically make him a jerk because he 'abandoned' Elia and his kids and ran off with Lynanna because he was 'prophecy obsessed.' Except it's more likely Elia agreed - because if she decided to stay in the marriage, she would have been obliged to give Rhaegar another kid because of prophecy/inheritance reasons...which she couldn't do. Then people would have regarded  Rhaegar as a jerk for impregnanting Elia and killing her because of it. This scenario of annulment and taking another wife would be much better, and he would actually be doing Elia a favour by doing so. And anyway, the books could always go with the polygamy route - so who knows? 

Well put!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Elia had agreed to that annulment, why would she stay on Dragonstone where she's in much more danger, when she could have been secretly transported back to Dorne where she will be in the safety of her own home? Not to mention that that was such a massive insult to Elia and House Martell that she would never agree to such a thing. If I married someone (even if it were someone I wasn't in love with) and risked my own life and safety to give him children and then he came and told me that he'll divorce me because I was no longer good enough because I can't deliver a third child/I'm not from a certain family, I'd be livid. He may have told her about it, but she had no option but to not contest it. Doesn't mean she agrees. 

People seem to think that annulment is a simple matter and that it's just like a modern divorce. It isn't. Elio and Linda just made a video about it that I invite all of you to watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZTfVpNnRQo 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎17‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 8:20 AM, RhaenysB said:

Woooooow. 

The thing is, the show didn't need to simplify Rhaegar for him to be "bastardized". People already hate Rhaegar regardless of how deep the story goes. It's really a love hate thing in both books and show which mirror's the realm's attitude beautifully. 

People hate Rhaegar because he was "prophecy obsessed" or appreciate the presence of the prophecy because it gives another layer to Rhaegar's motivations for starting a relationship with Lyanna other than love. 

People hate Rhaegar because they believe he kidnapped (and raped) Lyanna or they love him because they believe they loved each other and ran off. 

People hate Rhaegar because he was irresponsible and selfish and like him because he was passionate and romantic. 

People hate Rhaegar because Lyanna was (or wasn't) underage (in the context or by modern standards), and excuse that because close to everybody else was underage (and least by modern standards if not in the context too) when married off. 

People hate Rhaegar because he annulled (assuming that was possible and did happen, as told in the show) his wife and appreciate him for the same thing because it's way more honorable to get a divorce than to just walk out on a spouse or be polygamist. 

People hate Rhaegar because he was a brooding emo and love him because he was sensitive and artistic and romantic or excuse him because he was "clinically depressed" (as if that was a concept that exists in the context). 

People hate Rhaegar for not removing his father sooner and respect him as one of the few characters (on the show at least) honorable enough to not have murdered a relative. 

People love or hate Rhaegar based on their impressions, moral and ideological beliefs, culture, upbringing, taste in men, sympathy triggers etc and line up their arguments accordingly. Loving or hating Rhaegar is about us not Rhaegar, he is the same character, we just see him in different lights according to our own personalities. The show didn't put Rhaegar in a worse or better light, they barely changed the light he was in, which is so dim with the amount of information we have about this character that we can barely see him anyway. Maybe that's why the opinions of him are so contradicting. we have room to think more into him than we do into other characters that are way more visible and better outlined  through actions and more (detailed) descriptions from more sources. 

I like Rhaegar and his illogical annulment doesn't affect that at all, because I view it as more of a fair play than just cheating on Elia. Yes, we don't know how this complies with laws and the religion of the seven but the opposite wasn't established at least, so this is still more believable than the crowning of Cersei Lannister (after laws of succession and her criminal record had been established over and over again in the previous seasons). 

In further defense of this ridiculous record in a citadel diary, it's not unheard of that a secret marriage is officiated at the will of a monarch and against better judgment (see Robb stark and Talisa - historically an agreement of marriage was in certain times, in certain places, also considered a lawful agreement not to be broken on a whim), and the location's being Dorne is no more odd than in the case of the Tower of Joy which is unarguable book canon and a constant topic of discussion as well (why on earth would Rhaegar take Lyanna there and why on earth would the Dornish tolerate this). As for Rhaegar's children, let's not be over dramatic, it takes one piece of paper and a king's (who was soon going to be Rhaegar himself at that time) seal to legitimize them after the annulment, this was the case in the Tudor situation as well, to which Rhaegar's annulment has been compared to as real life example (Henry just issued an act restoring Mary and Elizabeth to the line of succession a few years after annulling/beheading their mothers). 

 

Exceptionally well said RhaenysB.

I'm not hearing any bitching over the fact Robert B was possibly going to divorce/annul Cersei for Margery.

Also its interesting to note that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married in Dorne, she was kept hidden in Dorne and protected by Ser Arthur Dayne - a Dornish man. 

We really have no other info about how Elia felt about all of this tho do we ?   

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Once again we fall into the trap of WE DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT RHEAGAR TARGARYEN OR LYANNA STARK TO MAKE INFORMED OPINIONS ABOUT WHAT THEIR CHARACTERS WOULD OR WOULD'T DO!

It's entirely possible Rheagar wasn't obsessed with prophecy or maybe he was and was just as crazy as his dad, had a bout of lust when he saw Lyanna, literally kidnapped her and forced a marriage, and then raped Jon into her. It's also possible that Rheagar was a total wimp that Lyanna seduced and gave him an ultimatum of marrying her or not be with her and he caved despite the ramifications. We simply do not know enough about these two. If the prophecy was that important to Rheagar and he felt Jon needed to be his heir, then the annulment was the easiest way to do it. 

Everybody has to stop overthinking this. The closest we ever got to a scene with either of them was a freaking fever dream Ned had in the first book where Lyanna repeated promise me Ned over and over again. 

It's also entirely possible Rheagar was a totally nice guy and did all the nice things we think he did and told his wife Elia about the prophecy and she completely understood it and put her and her children aside for the fate of the world. 

Those are all possibilities. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, princess_snow said:

Exceptionally well said RhaenysB.

I'm not hearing any bitching over the fact Robert B was possibly going to divorce/annul Cersei for Margery.

Also its interesting to note that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married in Dorne, she was kept hidden in Dorne and protected by Ser Arthur Dayne - a Dornish man. 

We really have no other info about how Elia felt about all of this tho do we ?   

 

Yes, that's (or used to be though probably still is) a huge chunk of the whole R+L debate. Why would the Dornish cooperate? There's a "theory" or idea or not sure what's the right term here that Elia was on board with the whole PTWP prophecy obsession and helped Rhaegar get the third head of the dragon in any way should, and gave her blessing that's rhagear kidnap Lyanna And rape and hold her hostage in Dorne just so there's a third baby. Yeah sure... my take is that Elia knew about the prophecy and she liked Rhaegar enough to give her blessing to the Lyanna business (and the annulment - if we believe the show). Liked and not loved because the latter is exactly why she would sign up for R+L. And if she didn't know and didn't give her blessing I don't see why Rhaegar would be stupid enough to set up everything in Dorne or why Oberyn wouldn't march up there and tear down his tower of joy (this is of course contradicted by the show in which Oberyn has some level of resentment for Rhaegar - I'm actually not sure that it was the same in the books). As for Arthur Dayne, he was best pals with Rhaegar so I can see him helping even if Elia didn't know/agree. 

No. we know very little about Elia and close to nothing about her relationship with Rhaegar. Elia was intelligent, nice and they were" fond of "each other is all I think. And her frail health which is why it was said that she couldn't have another baby after Aegon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now