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Bakker L - Unholy Consultation and Collaboration (Now with TUC Spoilers!)


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45 minutes ago, Cithrin's Ale said:

I'm rereading Warrior-Prophet and am currently at Antwurat. I like that for all the glorification Cnaiur's military genius received, Skauras thoroughly outwitted him. It's fun to wonder if the Holy War would have prevailed over the Fanim without Kellhus' defense of the swazond standard.

Isn't Cnaüir one the the best characters in fantasy? He highlights so much in the human condition and his conflict with himself and Kellhus at the same time is brilliant. In answer to your question, no. The don't even come close to Shimeh without Kellhus.

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1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Isn't Cnaüir one the the best characters in fantasy? He highlights so much in the human condition and his conflict with himself and Kellhus at the same time is brilliant. In answer to your question, no. The don't even come close to Shimeh without Kellhus.

Is that sarcasm? I can't tell. A lot of people, both here and at TSA, love that child murdering rapist.

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2 hours ago, Gronzag said:

Is that sarcasm? I can't tell. A lot of people, both here and at TSA, love that child murdering rapist.

No sarcasm. I'm don't think he is a great character because of rape. My Lord. It his inner battles he fights along with the external ones as well that makes him such a great character. The dialogue between him and Kellhus, some of the best stuff I've read. Look this is fantasy and "grimdark" at that. All characters do shitty things. It doesn't make them any less of a great reading experience and character. I'm not playing the moral high ground game...

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Cnaiur is interesting, but inconsistently so. His arc in TTT is a good example, where he goes from amazing to just weird to amazing to oddly convenient to confusing. TWP is where he really shines.

His placement in TAE is just not very good at all. 

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1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Cnaiur is interesting, but inconsistently so. His arc in TTT is a good example, where he goes from amazing to just weird to amazing to oddly convenient to confusing. TWP is where he really shines.

His placement in TAE is just not very good at all. 

I felt his inclusion in TAE completed his character development, with him finally getting the recognition he craved from the Scylvendi. I also liked that he realized that Serwe (or in this case, her visage) was the key to manipulating him and acted accordingly. On the level of dark humor, the way he responding "yes" to Moe Jr.'s accusations during his torture was hilarious. 

More problematic for me was the fact that Conphas had no role in TAE. It's so damn easy to imagine him taking Fanayal's place.

On a side note, I always wondered what happened to Anissi (Cnaiur's favorite wife) during his absence with Kellhus...

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Hi all. Colleague of a fan who directed me here. I'm a facilitator for two writers who were writing a pilot proposal and season treatment of The Darkness That Comes Before prior to Amazon scooping up PON late 2016. Now that Amazon has cut ties, the writers are proposing to resume their project.

In the interest of sourcing a crowd, what are your thoughts on adapting the first book as well as setting up later seasons for the second and third books?

I should mention, a couple major changes that the writers already seemed set on were as follows:

- The barbarian Cnaiur capture the Dunyain Kellhus right away. Basically, move the "Barrow Reunion" to the opening two episodes. There are a couple crucial plot beats after that apparently.

- A plot line imagine the Ikurei family before they are introduced in the books.

- The sorcerer, the priest, and the prostitute all begin in the religious capital, Sumna, I believe, and have flashbacks tell their preceding stories.

- The first season arc would focus on both the holy war gathering and the consult spy reveal as finale fodder.

Any thoughts, criticisms welcome. The writers are looking to resume work in earnest in the next couple weeks. Thanks in advance.

[Should add that the prostitute would be a madame, rather than a common prostitute; i.e. someone running their own brothel.]

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Eh, to have fun with it:

Quote

The barbarian Cnaiur capture the Dunyain Kellhus right away. Basically, move the "Barrow Reunion" to the opening two episodes. There are a couple crucial plot beats after that apparently.

This is missing the classic 'farmboy starts to discover the world' start up. It'd be like starting the audiences first meeting with Luke Skywalker in the canteena meeting Han Solo, skipping all that 'unnecessary stuff'.

If you want to drop a bomb right near the start (like the star destroyer following the rebel ship drops a bomb in new hopes opening), go with the nonman encounter Kellhus has and it's eventual fight, leading to hardcore magic from the nonman. I'm sure the cloak of faces will give some popularity kick as well from the OMG crowd. Flashback Kellhus's exile, being saved by Leweth then his strange attitude to Leweth as 'keep 'em teased' cut aways during his harrowing escape. This is still a farmboy discovering Earwa. Atleast to the audience. As Kellhus flees the Nonmans magic, reveal Kellhus abandoning wounded Leweth to the sranc. Then 'Two months pass...' or such, and he's sitting on the barrow. Surrounded by dead followers and dead sranc.

I'd suggest making some kind of allusion to the 'little Dunyain' the worldborn who followed Kellhus, and their faces having traits that are, to Kellhus, similar to Leweths. Since they are lying around him dead, one at his lap. It'd just help join the dots with viewers of what happened after.

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[Should add that the prostitute would be a madame, rather than a common prostitute

Augh! For goodness sake - literally 'because common prostitutes can't do anything'! If you want to build her up, show how she manages to survive on the streets by wits - just barely, because wits don't automatically overcome massive lack of resources. Which ties into his background with her lost daughter. 

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5 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I don't even know if I should take this seriously or not. I feel like I slipped through a hole in time or something.

I kind of like it. If we're going down that hole, then 

1. Describe Kellhus' Dunyain-thinking in Sherlock-style terms and display. 

2. Make Esmenet a fallen lowly priestess-beggar of Yatwer who has turned to prostitution. Gives a connection to Yatwer so it doesn't feel out of left field later on. 

3. Make Conphas a woman, like Bakker's editor wanted to do. It'll make him/her more interesting. 

 

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7 hours ago, Chatterly said:

Any thoughts, criticisms welcome. The writers are looking to resume work in earnest in the next couple weeks. Thanks in advance.

I think skipping the whole Prologue would be a definite missed opportunity to frame the whole series.  The again, I do maintain that doing the series justice is almost certainly unfilmable without an insane budget.  I once wrote a quick and dirty adaptation of the beginning of the Prologue, but I am not a writer, I am not talented and I am not pretending I have accomplished something that no one else could.

4 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Augh! For goodness sake - literally 'because common prostitutes can't do anything'! If you want to build her up, show how she manages to survive on the streets by wits - just barely, because wits don't automatically overcome massive lack of resources. Which ties into his background with her lost daughter.

Yeah, can't help but agree.  While there are elements that can no doubt be changed, I think that fundamental a change in Esmenet defeats most of the purpose of her character. 

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4 hours ago, Summer Bass said:

I kind of like it. If we're going down that hole, then 

1. Describe Kellhus' Dunyain-thinking in Sherlock-style terms and display. 

2. Make Esmenet a fallen lowly priestess-beggar of Yatwer who has turned to prostitution. Gives a connection to Yatwer so it doesn't feel out of left field later on. 

3. Make Conphas a woman, like Bakker's editor wanted to do. It'll make him/her more interesting. 

 

Oh, was Esmenet the name of the prostitute?  Sounds familiar.  Anyone remember the name of the sorcerer?

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On 9/17/2017 at 5:05 PM, Cithrin's Ale said:

Except for the people who believe his stories aren't sexist. They're okay. You see, it's those who accuse him of misogyny who are guilty of bias and group thinking.

Yes, Eärwa is sexist. It's a horrible world, just like our own. What of it? If you want sunshine and rainbows, Bakker isn't for you.

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11 hours ago, Chatterly said:

Hi all. Colleague of a fan who directed me here. I'm a facilitator for two writers who were writing a pilot proposal and season treatment of The Darkness That Comes Before prior to Amazon scooping up PON late 2016. Now that Amazon has cut ties, the writers are proposing to resume their project.

In the interest of sourcing a crowd, what are your thoughts on adapting the first book as well as setting up later seasons for the second and third books?

I should mention, a couple major changes that the writers already seemed set on were as follows:

- The barbarian Cnaiur capture the Dunyain Kellhus right away. Basically, move the "Barrow Reunion" to the opening two episodes. There are a couple crucial plot beats after that apparently.

- A plot line imagine the Ikurei family before they are introduced in the books.

- The sorcerer, the priest, and the prostitute all begin in the religious capital, Sumna, I believe, and have flashbacks tell their preceding stories.

- The first season arc would focus on both the holy war gathering and the consult spy reveal as finale fodder.

Any thoughts, criticisms welcome. The writers are looking to resume work in earnest in the next couple weeks. Thanks in advance.

[Should add that the prostitute would be a madame, rather than a common prostitute; i.e. someone running their own brothel.]

Hello! First of all, I am a book purist and whether this gets made or not, the recent seasons of GoT traumatized me well enough. Reintroducing Kellhus earlier is a good idea, but you might want to spend some time with Akka, Esmi, the Ikureis etc... First as you need Kiyuth to happen before Cnaiür meets Kellhus. Esmi''s life as a common prostitute is very very very important to her character development. Cutting that essentially destroys the character.One final note: You might want to laid the groundwork for TAE.Rereading PoN in the light of TUC is recommended.

ETA: Don't make Conphas a woman. Seriously, don't.

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