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Bakker L - Unholy Consultation and Collaboration (Now with TUC Spoilers!)


.H.

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Okay, so I just finished TUC, and I wanted to talk about a couple of things.  Because this was probably the best book in the series so far, but it still had some pretty classic Bakker-style flaws that I wanted to talk about.

1. Sorweel.  I fail to understand what role he played in the greater narrative.  It seemed to me that he had been developed into one of Bakker's most complex characters, with a tension at his core that was fascinating, and I wanted to see how it would all play out.  And then he instead just suddenly becomes another one-dimensional super-assassin whose only plot purpose, after all that development, was to serve as a reminded that Kel is invisible to the gods.  Something that was, narratively, unnecessary at that point.  We already knew that the Narindar couldn't see him, and all Bakker really needed to do after that was hit the point about Mimara's Judging Eye not being able to see him a little harder.

2. I'm unclear as to what the sequence of events was at the end, and how it all worked.  The reveal that the Dunyain had conquered the Consult was, frankly, one of the best twists I've encountered in fiction.  One of those twists that you don't see coming at all (at least, I didn't) and yet seemed super obvious after the fact.  But then we get the secondary twist that Kellhus is an avatar of Ajokli that comes out of nowhere, and which I found both confusing and very poorly foreshadowed (frankly, Ajokli as an entity had barely been established over the last few books - having him suddenly become a major player felt...ah...deus ex machina).  And unsatisfying.  Having cold, calculating Kellhus suddenly turn into a divine rage monster, even if that rage monster was a god, made him less, not more.

The text seemed to imply two mutually exclusive explanations.  A. That Kellhus summoned a bunch of Ciphrang, then lost control of one when the Hellish nature of the Ark meant that he couldn't keep his worldly grip on it.  This somehow led to Kellhus being possessed by the Ajokli.  B. That Kellhus had entered the Outside at a prior point in time and cut some sort of deal with Ajokli, making himself an avatar for the God in exchange for...a divine pardon, I guess.

There is a third option which is not as well supported by the text, but feels more true to the character: that Kellhus had already conquered the Outside, and become a living God.  This works because it gives him a real motive for taking on the Consult - something that was previously lacking.  It was never explained exactly why he had decided to save the world - what bit of Dunyain super-logic had caused him to choose that particular goal?  BUT, if he is a God, then the greatest threat to his power is the No-God, and therefore it makes total sense that he would choose to destroy it.

The problem with this take is: making him Ajokli just muddies the waters.  Did his rise to Godhood simply make him an avatar of an existing God?  Or are we supposed to infer that the Outside is somehow timeless, and that just because Kellhus became a God many thousands of years after the Tusk was carved, he's actually always been around?  More importantly, what little characterisation of Ajokli we get makes him out to be a bloodthirsty turd - a being much more like Cnair - whereas Kellhus is not that at all.

3. Okay, why couldn't the Gods see Kelmonas?  Was it just that he was always destined to become the No-God?  Because that's not really an explanation.  And was there some indication that the same was true of Nau-Cayuti?

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27 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Actually I think the issue many have is the exact opposite. That Earwa is more sexist and horrible (for women in particular) than our own world ever was. Bakker's not Martin or Lawrence who use sexual violence for (in part) a realistic depiction of the plight of women in medieval societies. He's doing it (I hope...) to deliberately disgust the reader and make a point.

I guess you are correct.TWP's ending and the Whale Mothers were pretty disturbing. But still, my point stands. Bakker doesn't celebrate it ala Gor. It is horrible because it's supposed  to be horrible.

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51 minutes ago, redeagl said:

Yes, Eärwa is sexist. It's a horrible world, just like our own. What of it? If you want sunshine and rainbows, Bakker isn't for you.

I wasn't even accusing Bakker of misogyny! I'm more annoyed that Bakker only accuses his critics of bias/group-thinking/world-born men fallacies and never holds his fanbase to the same standards.

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13 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

I believe that was Iyokus that lost control of the Ciphrang.

Ah.  Honestly, these books have so many characters with letter-salad names that I stopped bothering to keep track of anyone who wasn't a major player.  The TAE trilogy has many omniscient passages about the doings of the Believer-Kings, and I have no doubt that if you pay close attention, the names used are consistent and that various characters have their own arcs in there, but for me each time one of those passages passed before my eyes, it was like I was reading about character who had never been mentioned before.

Which is to say, I have no idea who Iyokus was.  I'd assumed that because of the sheer number of Ciphrang that appeared in that final sequence, it was Kellhus who'd summoned them.

13 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

That was my interpretation, but some have taken Bakker's statements in an AMA to mean that there never was any formal pact with Ajokli, and that the god overtook Kellhus without his knowledge. Personally, I believe there was pact, and take Bakker's statement to mean that Kellhus underestimated the degree to which Ajokli was taking control the closer they came to the Golden Room.

Did you read section on the Decapitants in the appendix?

One of my pet peeves with TTT was that when I got to the Glossary, I discovered a whole lot of information that absolutely should have been incorporated into the text.  It was stuff that was vital to understanding a whole lot of what had gone on in that original trilogy, and it was only available in an extratextual glossary.  And I assume Bakker has done it again with TAE.

Because of how my brain works, I've already figured out what I consider to be a better way for Bakker to have used various plot threads to produce a more satisfying conclusion:

Keep Sorweel alive.  Rather than have him become another Narindar, have him instead remain convinced that he should support Kellhus.  And because of his divine mask, have Kellhus choose him as his personal...something.  Doesn't matter, just so that Sorweel is by his side in the Golden Room.

Then, when Sorweel discovers that Kellhus' true motive is that he has conquered the Outside, and seeks to remove the last remaining threat to his power (the No-God), have Sorweel turn against him and try to murder him.  Kelmomas can appear and kill Sorweel, reaffirming his invisibility to the Gods, but then immediately take up Sorweel's chorae and kill his father.

You get the same ending, but it feels more like the plot threads came together, rather than Sorweel's just sputtering out.  Although it still doesn't explain Kelmomas.

(It also has the added benefit of removing the need for Malowebi's POV, which appeared to have no point other than as an observer.  I mean, I guess he's still hanging from a pillar of salt inside the Ark, so maybe he has some future part to play, but his role in the whole of TAE was never more than as a character who saw stuff.  Completely passive.)

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54 minutes ago, Mark Erikson said:

1. Sorweel.  I fail to understand what role he played in the greater narrative.  It seemed to me that he had been developed into one of Bakker's most complex characters, with a tension at his core that was fascinating, and I wanted to see how it would all play out.  And then he instead just suddenly becomes another one-dimensional super-assassin whose only plot purpose, after all that development, was to serve as a reminded that Kel is invisible to the gods.  Something that was, narratively, unnecessary at that point.  We already knew that the Narindar couldn't see him, and all Bakker really needed to do after that was hit the point about Mimara's Judging Eye not being able to see him a little harder.

He served a few purposes. Sorweel allowed us to see that salvation might be possible in Earwa, depending on how you judge his final vision of Yatwer. He also provided readers with a window into a Nonman perspective thanks to the amiolas. The fact that Serwa genuinely cared for him also shows that she's more emotional than her father, which might play a role in the next series if she survived. Most importantly, though, the fact that Kellhus would have died at his hands if not for Kel's interference proves that Kellhus is not omnipotent.

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39 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Malowebi's POVs were actually one of my favorite parts of the book. It was the first time we've gotten to see Bakker do humor well.

In this book, I was riveted by all Malowebi's POVs, but only because his was the only POV that gave us a good look at what Kellhus was up to.  But there were several other characters who could have filled the same role.  Malowebi himself was entirely incidental to the plot.

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15 minutes ago, Mark Erikson said:

In this book, I was riveted by all Malowebi's POVs, but only because his was the only POV that gave us a good look at what Kellhus was up to.  But there were several other characters who could have filled the same role.  Malowebi himself was entirely incidental to the plot.

Maybe Kellhus himself could have done the job? Especially in a "g-string shooting across the room" book.

Totally agree on point no.1 about Sorweel, by the way, even if his final scene was one of my two favorite scenes in the book with the Mimara looks at the No-God scene.

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1 hour ago, Cithrin's Ale said:

I wasn't even accusing Bakker of misogyny! I'm more annoyed that Bakker only accuses his critics of bias/group-thinking/world-born men fallacies and never holds his fanbase to the same standards.

Sorry, misinterpreted your comment. Bakker probably doesn't know anything of what his fans think. He interacted on the TSA forum a few months ago for a bit, got into a fight and left. However, he does seem to be quite following most of his reviews which could be why.

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35 minutes ago, Cithrin's Ale said:

He served a few purposes. Sorweel allowed us to see that salvation might be possible in Earwa, depending on how you judge his final vision of Yatwer. He also provided readers with a window into a Nonman perspective thanks to the amiolas. The fact that Serwa genuinely cared for him also shows that she's more emotional than her father, which might play a role in the next series if she survived. Most importantly, though, the fact that Kellhus would have died at his hands if not for Kel's interference proves that Kellhus is not omnipotent.

You are technically correct (the best kind of correct), but he remained an almost entirely passive character throughout the series.  No, he was an entirely passive character, because he was killed before he could take the single active action he would have taken.

As far as narrative mechanics go, Sorweel is...inelegant.  Yes, he serves multiple purposes, but those purposes don't add up to anything.  He's less a character that a device for achieving those purposes.  The reason this annoys me so, though, is because he had the potential to be one of Bakker's most interesting characters, and Bakker seems to have not recognised this, and instead thrown him away just to reaffirm something we already knew about Kelmomas.

Sorweel's arc is aborted, is the issue: His father is murdered by Kellhus, giving him motive to kill Kellhus.  His intentions are masked by Yatwer, giving him opportunity to kill Kellhus.  But then he goes to the Nonmen, and we get an inside look at Nonmen society, and they convince him that yes, Kellhus is a false prophet who does terrible things to achieve his goals, but he's also the only hope the world has of salvation.  This is actually really elegant plotting, because here Sorweel's character is growing and changing, and he's also giving us insight into the Nonmen.  This sets up a tension in Sorweel that makes him really compelling.  He wants to kill Kellhus, and can kill Kellhus, but he now has a really strong reason not to.  But then he turns into another Narindar, and whatever, all that growth was for shit, and the tension just evaporates.

The reason I came up with the alternate ending that I did is because I see value in carrying this tension forward to the end of the story.  Imagine if Sorweel saw firsthand the horrors of the Consult, had his conviction that Kellhus was the true saviour reaffirmed by everything he saw Kellhus do, and everything he saw within the Ark...

...only to discover, at the last moment, that Kellhus is exactly as false as he feared.  Kellhus wants to save the world not for its own sake, but because he wants to be its new God.  Then Sorweel finally decides to actually kill Kellhus.  At that point, the tension is finally released, at the climax of the story and the natural end of his arc.

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14 hours ago, Cithrin's Ale said:

I felt his inclusion in TAE completed his character development, with him finally getting the recognition he craved from the Scylvendi. I also liked that he realized that Serwe (or in this case, her visage) was the key to manipulating him and acted accordingly. On the level of dark humor, the way he responding "yes" to Moe Jr.'s accusations during his torture was hilarious. 

More problematic for me was the fact that Conphas had no role in TAE. It's so damn easy to imagine him taking Fanayal's place.

On a side note, I always wondered what happened to Anissi (Cnaiur's favorite wife) during his absence with Kellhus...

Could be just me hallucinating but I vaguely remember that Anissi had an entry in the Glossary in TUC. She died in 4113 (??). Probably by Cnaiür or The Thing Called Serwë.

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16 minutes ago, redeagl said:

Could be just me hallucinating but i vaguely remember that Anissi had an entry in the Glossary in TUC. She died in 4113 (??). Probably by Cnaiür.

You're right! 4113 is a few months after Shimeh was taken. It's interesting that Anissi wasn't killed immediately following Cnaiur's absence. I like to imagine the thing called Serwe killed Anissi to make sure it had no competition for Cnaiur's heart. Following this train of thought, Cnaiur had no other consorts in TAE.

Mark, maybe the clunkiness of Sorweel's role reveals that Bakker was always more of a 'gardener' writer than a 'plotter'.

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@Let's Get Kraken, I think he demonstrates the human condition quite well, in that we have to fight internal and externally on a daily basis. His are, well, more extreme and I just thought it was done very well. Will always be one of my favorite characters of anything I've read. I'll say this, I haven't come across another Cnauir in any book that I've read. Very unique.

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15 hours ago, Chatterly said:

In the interest of sourcing a crowd, what are your thoughts on adapting the first book as well as setting up later seasons for the second and third books?

Most important part: deliver the hook about what the stakes are early. A lot of the power of the story comes from the idea that the universe itself is horrible, and that very bad things wage war against each other to make the universe more palatable and less horrible to them at the cost of making it completely horrible later. 

To that end: at least hint at things like how horrible the Dunyain are. Hint at how horrible the universe is - make it clear that women are seen as less than men by the whole universe, and that this is the natural order of things, and how bad it is. 

15 hours ago, Chatterly said:

I should mention, a couple major changes that the writers already seemed set on were as follows:

- The barbarian Cnaiur capture the Dunyain Kellhus right away. Basically, move the "Barrow Reunion" to the opening two episodes. There are a couple crucial plot beats after that apparently.

That's probably fine, though this misses a fairly cool opening beat of Conphas obliterating the Scylvendi, which I suspect would be a good intro hook to showing how powerful magic is and the general rules of the world (sorcerers rule, but are countered by chorae and bowmen, which are countered by infantry) and it loses the rivalry of Conphas/Cnaiur, which is one of the more compelling stories in the series.

15 hours ago, Chatterly said:

- A plot line imagine the Ikurei family before they are introduced in the books.

Maybe necessary, but really boring. Aside from Conphas they're very dull and basic, and will remind people of being a bad copy of palace politics aka GOT. I'd try and avoid that and differentiate your product from GOT - more magic, more sorcery, more weird stuff like the Consult, and less political infighting. 

15 hours ago, Chatterly said:

- The sorcerer, the priest, and the prostitute all begin in the religious capital, Sumna, I believe, and have flashbacks tell their preceding stories.

Probably fine, though it likely loses some oomph for setting up Akka with the Scarlet spires later. I'm not sure that Inrau and that earlier story even need to be in the series at all; while he serves as an intro to the Consult being around, he's not very interesting outside of that. 

15 hours ago, Chatterly said:

- The first season arc would focus on both the holy war gathering and the consult spy reveal as finale fodder.

If that's the case and if you're missing the Scylvendi battle you're going to have a very dull story with few action beats. You might show the vulgar holy war, but that's not that special. You won't have any magical clashes, only a few fights with Kellhus taking on random dorks, and almost nothing else to really draw in. That might work if you're needing to avoid big fights/spectacles for money reasons, but I suspect it'll mean not a lot of differentiating your story from GOT or Last Kingdom or Vikings. 

15 hours ago, Chatterly said:

Any thoughts, criticisms welcome. The writers are looking to resume work in earnest in the next couple weeks. Thanks in advance.

[Should add that the prostitute would be a madame, rather than a common prostitute; i.e. someone running their own brothel.]

As mentioned this is by far the worst choice you can make; Esme is a low-caste prostitute not because she is dumb or bad, but because that's what is available to her. The best frisson here is showing how smart and capable Esme is (something badly done in the books) and comparing this with how none of this helps her because of her sex and her caste. This is something that can be improved upon from the books massively, and turning her into a brothel owner removes all of that.

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3 hours ago, Mark Erikson said:

One of my pet peeves with TTT was that when I got to the Glossary, I discovered a whole lot of information that absolutely should have been incorporated into the text.  It was stuff that was vital to understanding a whole lot of what had gone on in that original trilogy, and it was only available in an extratextual glossary.  And I assume Bakker has done it again with TAE.

Oh, he's done a lot worse.

Kellhus did make some kind of deal with Ajokli, but did not mean to be taken over in the Golden Room. That was entirely accidental and happened because Kellhus has a weak spirit, like all Dunyain do.

Similarly, the Dunyain are not actually just Dunyain - they are likely inhabited and used as a soul vessel by the immortal Mangaeccea sorcerer, Shaeonnara, the founder of the Consult. The Dunyain who got taken captive and subsumed the Consult actually are being used.

3 hours ago, Mark Erikson said:

You get the same ending, but it feels more like the plot threads came together, rather than Sorweel's just sputtering out.  Although it still doesn't explain Kelmomas.

I like this idea a lot. Kelmomas, by the way, got taken by a skin-spy or at least met one in the guise of Esme, a few chapters before the Golden Room. How he crossed the entire battle line and was welcomed by the Consult is left as an exercise to the reader. 

3 hours ago, Mark Erikson said:

(It also has the added benefit of removing the need for Malowebi's POV, which appeared to have no point other than as an observer.  I mean, I guess he's still hanging from a pillar of salt inside the Ark, so maybe he has some future part to play, but his role in the whole of TAE was never more than as a character who saw stuff.  Completely passive.)

There's another extratextual bit, which is that Malowebi establishes random heads as soul containers for things. This gets revealed in another entry in the glossary, where Kellhus spends a bit of time apparently swapping his own head with the Decapitants on the plains of Mengedda. 

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2 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

@Kalbear Where is the confirmation that Shae is now inhabiting the Dunsult?

There's no confirmation, just conjecture and hinting from the usual crowds. There's very little reason to give the answer RAFO regarding the fate of Shae if he isn't involved. 

It's also almost precisely how the DunSult speak; reading back on it with that as the framing, it seems pretty clear, especially since for a while at least they talk in exactly the same order every time. They sadly stop doing that; it would have made it even more clear and creepy, but they stopped. 

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If I were to produce this for a visual medium, I’d use the tricks from the British Sherlock series to explain how Kellhus works. This is extremely engaging. For instance, Kellhus’ first encounter with the trapper would make great TV. Super-closeups of sweat beads, eye contractions, pulsing veins, overlaid with Kellhus’ inner voice. Possibly cross-cut this with training scenes of young Kellhus, where he learns all these tricks from the Pragma. (So the Pragma voiceover can explain to “us” what’s going on.) This stuff writes itself and is quite cheap, and inserts itself into now-established visual TV tricks from crime procedurals; it combines the appeal of Sherlock and CSI:Whatever with pop psychology. It clearly differentiates itself from GOT. (“Game of Thrones meets Sherlock.” Ka-ching.) 

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5 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Actually I think the issue many have is the exact opposite. That Earwa is more sexist and horrible (for women in particular) than our own world ever was. Bakker's not Martin or Lawrence who use sexual violence for (in part) a realistic depiction of the plight of women in medieval societies. He's doing it (I hope...) to deliberately disgust the reader and make a point.

I don't want to go down this rabbit hole to deep again, but the "that's how it was back then" has been thoroughly debunked by many posters and Bakker himself, who is on record saying he made things way worse than it would have been on earth in a similar time period on purpose.

Edit: and you all already ironed all that out. That's what I get for posting before I read the whole thread.

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