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Bakker L - Unholy Consultation and Collaboration (Now with TUC Spoilers!)


.H.

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20 minutes ago, Mark Erikson said:

 

It's not a particularly satisfying answer.  The Consult just have to wait around until a No-God randomly gets born?  The text sort of implied this, with the Dunyain saying that the Consult had jammed soul after soul into the Carapace until they got their hands on Nau-Cayuti, but still, that's a pretty bad plan (and as far as I can recall, we aren't given an explanation of why Nau-Cayuti was a No-God candidate either).

The whole "he was fated to be the No-God" just doesn't sit right with me.  It does feel paradoxical.  Fate, presumably, is the domain of the Gods.  Why would fate spin out a soul that is outside its own scope?

Or maybe Bakker's just showing you a new type of narrative experience and/or meaning!

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16 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Yeah, but would Bakker sign off on that? I can see a certain portion of the fanbase getting super pissed.

Which brings up a good question, is Bakker involved in this at all?

I think it's a great idea too and would help in bringing the story to a wider viewing group. TSA isn't without its flaws, I'm also one who thinks Conphas shouldn't have died. There's a lot you could change to make it more appealing to a wider range of people, sure. But, as you said, if Bakker is involved I doubt he'll wanna change much of anything. But, in order for it to be watchable, they'll have to change certain aspects.

I agree with @.H., that cutting the prologue would be a mistake. You need that to understand Kellhus and his origins and shows the 1st apocalypse in a way. I think the line about "when all men die are there no more crimes." and the Dunyain's response a great set up for the start of the series. Wouldn't cut the Nonman or Leweth either. As far as gender and such of certain characters, it would make sense that there be some changes. I also agree with @Callan S. that making Esme a Madame and not a prostitute, takes away a lot from her character, it who she is, it be a mistake to change that.

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1 hour ago, Mark Erikson said:

 

It's not a particularly satisfying answer.  The Consult just have to wait around until a No-God randomly gets born?  The text sort of implied this, with the Dunyain saying that the Consult had jammed soul after soul into the Carapace until they got their hands on Nau-Cayuti, but still, that's a pretty bad plan (and as far as I can recall, we aren't given an explanation of why Nau-Cayuti was a No-God candidate either).

Nau-Cayuti's brain could complete the circuit for the No-God, is the extratextual explanation. This is especially confusing to me given that it is implied that the Anasurimbor bloodline is what matters - but Nau-Cayuti was actually Seswatha's, not Kelmomas'. 

The Consult kept trying to just randomly cram in things. They had no idea why Nau-Cayuti worked, and it wasn't until the Dunyain came along that they had even a vague idea. And the Dunyain only had the idea that an Anasurimbor was destined to go into it - but they didn't know which one. This is, IMO, why they took Kelmomas, why they had a watch on Mimara, why they didn't kill some of the others when they had a chance - because they couldn't make certain that it was the case which was the destined one. 

1 hour ago, Mark Erikson said:

The whole "he was fated to be the No-God" just doesn't sit right with me.  It does feel paradoxical.  Fate, presumably, is the domain of the Gods.  Why would fate spin out a soul that is outside its own scope?

Fate is the province of the entire world. Per Koringhus, everything has already happened. The gods can see past and future because to them it has already occurred. And because we know parts of the world are invisible to the gods - things like the No-God - we know that at some point the No-God must walk, and the gods must be destroyed or left blind and impotent. We know that the world has an end. 

Another way to square this is to think that the gods are part of the system but are not the system. They are parasites, feeding on the souls that are damned. The system requires soul transmission and reading, but it doesn't require the gods to harvest them. Therefore, the gods going away doesn't mean the end of the universe, it simply means the end of the gods and whatever system they use. It means the disenchantment of the world. 

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33 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I agree with @.H., that cutting the prologue would be a mistake. You need that to understand Kellhus and his origins and shows the 1st apocalypse in a way.

I think it could be a quickie voiceover that introduces Kellhus. Or have every episode start with a Meaningful Deep Quote, and the first episode can start with that one. 

33 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I Wouldn't cut the Nonman or Leweth either.

The nonmen/Leweth part is kind of boring as shit. There are a lot of ways to condense that to introduce us to Kellhus and all the stuff he doesn't know but quickly can figure out (which is the primary value here) as well as show his power over common people. You don't need a hundred pages of Kellhus wandering around without interacting with any other characters for that to happen. Realistically, you want to get to the point where all the main characters are together as quickly as you can. 

 

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Someone awhile ago suggested doing the series as anime.  I think it would lend itself well to an animated series, especially given the drawbacks discussed upthread to the more obvious alternative.  

 

And yeah, Kelmomas is invisible because the gods can't see their own end, and he is literally the Eschaton for always and forevers.

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6 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Bakker set out to make a world that was specifically worse than our own. He said this point blank. You can choose not to get it if you want, and that's cool, but it doesn't make it accurate.

I seem to remember him saying that todays sex slave trade is worse than what he's written. But I didn't jot down the link.

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5 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

I actually liked something I saw Ran suggest when perusing some of the old threads circa 2009 or so. Make Akka female.

I mean, if they're going to adapt Bakker, we should probably all just accept right now that they are going to have to change huge portions of the story to make it work for TV.

I don't think there needs to be huge changes - probably just increase the pace and the issue of penises out on display everywhere - wait, did you already reference that with huge portions? Well played! lol!

And Akka being female - and seduced, for goodness sake? Because that makes more sense and is more comfortable? And so now Esme is gay or bi to fit that and...somehow Mimara gets pregnant and...no, this wont have ramifications down the line...

It reminds me of the Australian TV series Rake, where the main character is watching a movie version of his own life, but he's been made into a female and a lesbian in it and is cringing his way through watching it. At least in that story, the main character and his female movie version - they really had nothing to do with each other apart from both being lawyers.

5 hours ago, Cithrin's Ale said:

Bakker's original editor suggested Conphas be made female. Bakker scoffed because this would be implausible.

Personally, I would enjoy watching Cnaiur react to being humiliated by a woman at Kiyuth.

He probably wouldn't care on the matter, then would catch himself moments latter to hate the woman because that's how the people think and he is of the people.

And to me, Conphas is a honey trap - he is supposed to be related to by a range of readers who would actively avoid relating to a woman (it's partly why Bakker says it'd be implausible - Earwa is attuned to that range of readers). Before saying this is catering to a certain type of reader, consider Conphas's overall story arc. Men need to see men fail and fall - they really, really don't need to see another woman fail and fall as Conphas did. That'd be catering.

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22 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Actually that makes even less sense.

How would having less sexism than medieval Europe make it less authentic, or "internally consistent" than having more?

I don't like the word, but it's the only one that fits... you(and others) don't understand because you are too priviledged. Western ideals don't just appear out of thin air.

 

Shitty conditions create shitty people. That's it. 

 

I have known the stories, but the first time I have seen it was a few years ago in a western country not some shithole you can't find on a map... This is happening right now, in the age of computers, the internet and 3d printed organs

 

That is why Bakker's world is internally consistent and that's one reason people hate it. Being from eastern EU I have seen and heard of many shitty people doing shitty things, Earwa didn't feel as foreign to me as to most readers. Years under the communist regimes made our outlook different.  

 

The notion of people being "good" is something only the west takes for granted, that's why Bakker is horrifing, he shows us something about humanity most would rather forget.

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17 hours ago, Callan S. said:

WTF is all this push for Conphas to be female?

If anything his arc is Kellhus in miniature. And no one's asking for Kellhus to be female.

Now, Akka is a female too :P .

Hey, screenwriter, can you also make Aurang a female?  We don't have any Inchoroi women and that's really bothering me.

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14 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I think it could be a quickie voiceover that introduces Kellhus. Or have every episode start with a Meaningful Deep Quote, and the first episode can start with that one. 

The nonmen/Leweth part is kind of boring as shit. There are a lot of ways to condense that to introduce us to Kellhus and all the stuff he doesn't know but quickly can figure out (which is the primary value here) as well as show his power over common people. You don't need a hundred pages of Kellhus wandering around without interacting with any other characters for that to happen. Realistically, you want to get to the point where all the main characters are together as quickly as you can. 

 

I am not highly concerned or gonna get worked up over any changes if and when it happens, I feel it's a long shot. Anyhow, I would love to stick to the book as close as possible and be true to the authors vision, it's what I want of any adaption. That's not reality though, and @Let's Get Kraken points out the major issues I believe. If anything, if a came about and a deal done, we'd be highly likely to get TNG that much quicker. I am not holding my breath on this becoming reality, but I would love it.

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The show should embrace the cheese involved in affordably showing large CGI armies, CGI magic, etc. It would make a humorous, over-the-top counterpoint to the often ponderous philosophizing and dark tone, while still allowing you to show that stuff without breaking the bank. Fantasy used to embrace the cheese.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

What the fuck...

What the fuck

6 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Was the glowing reception to Confederate's premise not some indication that portraying deliberately problematic or regressive worlds to highlight modern social failings is something that will be poorly received by contemporary audiences?

Is that because it doesn't get through to them, or a poor reception shows its actually engaging a problem? If you say 'Other races are okay, man' to a neo nazi, you'll get a poor reception - that's because it's actually getting to the meat of a problem, it's not something to avoid unless you want to sell out entirely.

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4 hours ago, Summer Bass said:

The show should embrace the cheese involved in affordably showing large CGI armies, CGI magic, etc. It would make a humorous, over-the-top counterpoint to the often ponderous philosophizing and dark tone, while still allowing you to show that stuff without breaking the bank. Fantasy used to embrace the cheese.

 

 

Why would it be humourous?

I'm kind of imagining blurred CGI, with the larger battle almost seeming a serene thing as they are viewed from a distance - with flash cuts to up close and personal live action horrific maimings and crimson deaths in mere flashing half second, but then cut back to the serene. Keep not allowing that broader battle to somehow seem something that is grasped so comfortably as to be humorous.

Time and distance makes comedy of tragedy. So make a mockery of how distance makes battles seem a joke.

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