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Bakker L - Unholy Consultation and Collaboration (Now with TUC Spoilers!)

351 posts in this topic

11 minutes ago, Cithrin's Ale said:

Show writer, use Kalbear's (I think it was him, forgive me if I'm not giving proper credit) idea posted a few months/years ago. Make Akka a woman and have Kellhus seduce her.

Also, every beard must be plaited. This is going to start a trend in facial hair.

Good luck portraying the Nonmen without Ridley Scott suing you for stealing the design of the Engineers.

It's too bad H.R. Giger is no longer with us.

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7 minutes ago, Lutarez said:

 

One crazy  explanation that kinda makes sense(without being a paradox) is basically having multiple universes. 

 

If in one universe someone becomes the no-god then this affects all other realities. That is why Kelmomas is invisible, in another reality (similar but still different)he has already become the no-god . The gods only exist in one reality, hence they confuse the two. Kellmomas and alt-Kelmomas are both invisible

 

This way the logos (that what comes after) still works.

Bakker has explained it though and said it's a paradox. Whether or not you believe him is a matter of some, eh, "discussion".

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6 minutes ago, Lutarez said:

Internally consistent is a better word. Still, same point.

Actually that makes even less sense.

How would having less sexism than medieval Europe make it less authentic, or "internally consistent" than having more?

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18 minutes ago, Lutarez said:

Did you read my whole comment ? I understand that Bakker's world is sexist, racist and all arround horrible, what I don't understand is the argument against that. Simple math. 

 

Our medieval world=sexist 

Our medieval world+ Sranc, the apocalypse etc = even more sexist 

 

 

If he made the ammount of sexism less(or the same) than medieval Europe, his world would not be authentic.

Except that's not the reason why.

Our medieval world = sexist.

Earwa is a medieval world which also arbitrarily defines women as less than men. It has nothing to do with sranc, or the apocalypse, or Inchoroi, or any of that. It is because the rules of the entire universe are set so that women are objectively worth less than men, and you can even see this if you have the right viewer.

People object to that because it's incredibly arbitrary and also appears to have zero actual point other than to show how things would suck really bad. 

Note that Bakker had originally thought of making it about race instead of gender - where the darker-skinned people were worth less than lighter-skinned - but his publisher flat out said it wouldn't get published. I am more skeptical of this claim now, but the point is that Bakker always wanted to make some arbitrary rule of worth being immoral to our current sensibilities, and stuck with women. 

Now, if the world had been made more sexist over time because of how the world evolves, that'd be one thing. I made an argument for that a long time back - where in a world where 60% of the women got wiped out by a plague, it would be an obvious thing to make women even more coveted and prized as a resource, making them more protected and more treated as objects. That would make sense in the same way that the sexism in Fury Road makes sense, but that's not what this world is. 

18 minutes ago, Cithrin's Ale said:

Show writer, use Kalbear's (I think it was him, forgive me if I'm not giving proper credit) idea posted a few months/years ago. Make Akka a woman and have Kellhus seduce her.

So my idea wasn't just to make Akka a woman - it was to make the entire Mandate, Seswatha included, be women. This does a number of interesting things to the story, though it would change it significantly; notably, it makes the Mandate sacrifice of no family/children be a lot more personal, it makes the Mandate knowing the gnosis vs. the anagnosis be about gender, and it makes the Akka/Kellhus dynamics and the Esme/Kellhus dynamics more interesting. Kellhus doesn't have to seduce Akka, seducing a lesbian Esme is almost as interesting and is a good parallel to Moe seducing Cnaiur. 

Conphas as a woman is also really good, though, and a lot easier.

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1 hour ago, Hello World said:

The only explanation is that he's the no God and so was always invisible to the gods, just like Mimara always had the judging eye even before she got pregnant. This was Bakker's answer in the ama too, by the way. 

It's not a particularly satisfying answer.  The Consult just have to wait around until a No-God randomly gets born?  The text sort of implied this, with the Dunyain saying that the Consult had jammed soul after soul into the Carapace until they got their hands on Nau-Cayuti, but still, that's a pretty bad plan (and as far as I can recall, we aren't given an explanation of why Nau-Cayuti was a No-God candidate either).

The whole "he was fated to be the No-God" just doesn't sit right with me.  It does feel paradoxical.  Fate, presumably, is the domain of the Gods.  Why would fate spin out a soul that is outside its own scope?

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20 minutes ago, Mark Erikson said:

 

It's not a particularly satisfying answer.  The Consult just have to wait around until a No-God randomly gets born?  The text sort of implied this, with the Dunyain saying that the Consult had jammed soul after soul into the Carapace until they got their hands on Nau-Cayuti, but still, that's a pretty bad plan (and as far as I can recall, we aren't given an explanation of why Nau-Cayuti was a No-God candidate either).

The whole "he was fated to be the No-God" just doesn't sit right with me.  It does feel paradoxical.  Fate, presumably, is the domain of the Gods.  Why would fate spin out a soul that is outside its own scope?

Or maybe Bakker's just showing you a new type of narrative experience and/or meaning!

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1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

So my idea wasn't just to make Akka a woman - it was to make the entire Mandate, Seswatha included, be women. This does a number of interesting things to the story, though it would change it significantly; notably, it makes the Mandate sacrifice of no family/children be a lot more personal, it makes the Mandate knowing the gnosis vs. the anagnosis be about gender, and it makes the Akka/Kellhus dynamics and the Esme/Kellhus dynamics more interesting. Kellhus doesn't have to seduce Akka, seducing a lesbian Esme is almost as interesting and is a good parallel to Moe seducing Cnaiur. 

I really like this.

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2 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

I really like this.

Yeah, but would Bakker sign off on that? I can see a certain portion of the fanbase getting super pissed.

Which brings up a good question, is Bakker involved in this at all?

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16 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Yeah, but would Bakker sign off on that? I can see a certain portion of the fanbase getting super pissed.

Which brings up a good question, is Bakker involved in this at all?

I think it's a great idea too and would help in bringing the story to a wider viewing group. TSA isn't without its flaws, I'm also one who thinks Conphas shouldn't have died. There's a lot you could change to make it more appealing to a wider range of people, sure. But, as you said, if Bakker is involved I doubt he'll wanna change much of anything. But, in order for it to be watchable, they'll have to change certain aspects.

I agree with @.H., that cutting the prologue would be a mistake. You need that to understand Kellhus and his origins and shows the 1st apocalypse in a way. I think the line about "when all men die are there no more crimes." and the Dunyain's response a great set up for the start of the series. Wouldn't cut the Nonman or Leweth either. As far as gender and such of certain characters, it would make sense that there be some changes. I also agree with @Callan S. that making Esme a Madame and not a prostitute, takes away a lot from her character, it who she is, it be a mistake to change that.

Edited by Michael Seswatha Jordan

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1 hour ago, Mark Erikson said:

 

It's not a particularly satisfying answer.  The Consult just have to wait around until a No-God randomly gets born?  The text sort of implied this, with the Dunyain saying that the Consult had jammed soul after soul into the Carapace until they got their hands on Nau-Cayuti, but still, that's a pretty bad plan (and as far as I can recall, we aren't given an explanation of why Nau-Cayuti was a No-God candidate either).

Nau-Cayuti's brain could complete the circuit for the No-God, is the extratextual explanation. This is especially confusing to me given that it is implied that the Anasurimbor bloodline is what matters - but Nau-Cayuti was actually Seswatha's, not Kelmomas'. 

The Consult kept trying to just randomly cram in things. They had no idea why Nau-Cayuti worked, and it wasn't until the Dunyain came along that they had even a vague idea. And the Dunyain only had the idea that an Anasurimbor was destined to go into it - but they didn't know which one. This is, IMO, why they took Kelmomas, why they had a watch on Mimara, why they didn't kill some of the others when they had a chance - because they couldn't make certain that it was the case which was the destined one. 

1 hour ago, Mark Erikson said:

The whole "he was fated to be the No-God" just doesn't sit right with me.  It does feel paradoxical.  Fate, presumably, is the domain of the Gods.  Why would fate spin out a soul that is outside its own scope?

Fate is the province of the entire world. Per Koringhus, everything has already happened. The gods can see past and future because to them it has already occurred. And because we know parts of the world are invisible to the gods - things like the No-God - we know that at some point the No-God must walk, and the gods must be destroyed or left blind and impotent. We know that the world has an end. 

Another way to square this is to think that the gods are part of the system but are not the system. They are parasites, feeding on the souls that are damned. The system requires soul transmission and reading, but it doesn't require the gods to harvest them. Therefore, the gods going away doesn't mean the end of the universe, it simply means the end of the gods and whatever system they use. It means the disenchantment of the world. 

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