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Bakker L - Unholy Consultation and Collaboration (Now with TUC Spoilers!)

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42 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Some still slip through though. Especially if it's a draft that already contains lot's of typos and you're also on the lookout for structuring, grammatical, and plot errors. Typos are probably one of the hardest things to catch if you're not trained to look out for them. it's easy for the brain to just fall back on its own internal auto-correct.

What we're reading is more polished than whatever beta readers got to look at, so the typos probably seem more glaring and easy to catch.

Yeah uh, I don;t think the beta readers caught any of those. And I don;t think what we got is that different.

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Yeah uh, I don;t think the beta readers caught any of those. And I don;t think what we got is that different.

What makes you think that?

I haven't finished the book or read the infamous AMA yet, so if there's an obvious indicator there (plot errors for example) I haven't seen it yet. I mean, has he said that he didn't make use of his beta readers to the degree that he did in previous books, or is the overall quality just such that it speaks for itself?

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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We figured out at Zaudunyanicon that Bakker never reads his published books and all the typos that Madness, Wilshire, and bakkerfans noted, along with a couple other beta-readers, were never fixed by Overlook.

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17 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

What makes you think that?

I haven't finished the book or read the infamous AMA yet, so if there's an obvious indicator there (plot errors for example) I haven't seen it yet. I mean, has he said that he didn't make use of his beta readers to the degree that he did in previous books, or is the overall quality just such that it speaks for itself?

Well, that's mostly spoiler territory, but the fucking italiacs in the first 100 pages, I can;t  believe a real editor wouldn't have pointed that out.

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2 hours ago, Rhom said:

Even Beta readers should have been able to catch the myriad typos though.

 Beta readers missed giant actual plotlines, apparently. I'm not sure they're the best for catching typos. 

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3 hours ago, Psycho Circus said:

We figured out at Zaudunyanicon that Bakker never reads his published books and all the typos that Madness, Wilshire, and bakkerfans noted, along with a couple other beta-readers, were never fixed by Overlook.

I thought bakkerfans was Madness.

 

Also, die hard fans, who know author on a personal level, are probably the worst choice for beta-readers.

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29 minutes ago, Gronzag said:

I thought bakkerfans was Madness.

Also, die hard fans, who know author on a personal level, are probably the worst choice for beta-readers.

Eh, kinda? I think some of it is good because they know things like the backstory and the characters and the vibe, so they are at least in on it and know what might work. I think relying on them alone is a very, very dangerous thing to do, because they will miss a whole lot of basic things and are reading it for different reasons. 

You ideally want a lot of different readers - some who don't know what's going on, some who are reading it for literary value, some for editorial value, and some for fan value. 

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49 minutes ago, Gronzag said:

I thought bakkerfans was Madness.

 

Also, die hard fans, who know author on a personal level, are probably the worst choice for beta-readers.

Oh its all madness in the end...

Oh you mean the person.

No, I think they're two different people.

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9 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

General question about the series: Were Cnaiur and Proyas actually lovers at any point during TPoN trilogy? IIRC Proyas refers to Cnaiur's lips as "sensual" during the trip through the desert, and there are certain plenty of hints that Cnaiur was "warm for his form" so to speak. Was this mutual? Do we think anything ever happened between them?

Considering Prosha's strong cultural reaction against homosexuality following his rape, I would say no.

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Posted (edited)

Less than half of Bakker's beta-readers are fans, only two of them read TGO, and only four of them read TUC. Apparently, they didn't miss any major plot points except:

whatever it is that's going on with Shauriatas, which has now become strictly RAFO following the Q&A/AMA and his realizing that no one caught something.

You actually have two non-fan long-time beta-readers to thank for the shortening of the two Obscenity Ordeal chapters and the condensed WHCB section - the former of which eliminated some cool dialogue and semi-crucial dialogue between Saccarees and Council and Proyas and Eskeles respectively. Bakker mentioned to draft readers that they could share director's cut information and Bakkerfans read some missing portions of TUC in Wilshire's hotel room later that night.

Bakker apparently went through all the mundane changes by beta-readers and those of a handful of draft readers - major plot clarity/ambiguity aside - were never fixed. Bakker didn't seem to know that as he was pretty damn surprised when he found out on Saturday that the typos caught by Madness, Wilshire, and Bakkerfans didn't make it into the final version.

Edited by Psycho Circus

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Sorry for the double post but it should be noted that Overlook actually outsourced all Bakker's editing for TGO/TUC. Any complaints regarding the many, many mundane errors - much less pacing, whatever - should be directed to Overlook.

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I'm surprised to see all this talk about typos. I'm 150 pages into TUC and haven't noticed very many at all.  

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6 hours ago, Psycho Circus said:

Less than half of Bakker's beta-readers are fans, only two of them read TGO, and only four of them read TUC. Apparently, they didn't miss any major plot points except:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

whatever it is that's going on with Shauriatas, which has now become strictly RAFO following the Q&A/AMA and his realizing that no one caught something.

 

You actually have two non-fan long-time beta-readers to thank for the shortening of the two Obscenity Ordeal chapters and the condensed WHCB section - the former of which eliminated some cool dialogue and semi-crucial dialogue between Saccarees and Council and Proyas and Eskeles respectively. Bakker mentioned to draft readers that they could share director's cut information and Bakkerfans read some missing portions of TUC in Wilshire's hotel room later that night.

Bakker apparently went through all the mundane changes by beta-readers and those of a handful of draft readers - major plot clarity/ambiguity aside - were never fixed. Bakker didn't seem to know that as he was pretty damn surprised when he found out on Saturday that the typos caught by Madness, Wilshire, and Bakkerfans didn't make it into the final version.

Wait, are you saying the beta readers who read TUC hadn't read any of the others? I'm a bit confused.

And SOMEONE obviously missed a bunch of plot points...

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23 minutes ago, End of Disc One said:

I'm surprised to see all this talk about typos. I'm 150 pages into TUC and haven't noticed very many at all.  

I don't remember any in TUC either, just a misprinted letter or two. TGO had tons though.

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Posted (edited)

I feel like I saw more typos in the PoN trilogy than I have thus far in TGO/TUC.

About 200 pages in now to TUC.

The constant use if italics is little jarring compared to previous books, but it's not as amateurish or distracting as people are making out.

EDIT: That is to say, I saw typos more frequently in PoN.

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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Bakker has five or six beta-readers who have read all the drafts. Fan beta-readers only got involved in those numbers for TGO/TUC.

The Zaudunyanicon attendees/draft readers present seemed to have gotten all the major plot points.

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9 hours ago, Psycho Circus said:

Less than half of Bakker's beta-readers are fans, only two of them read TGO, and only four of them 

Bakker apparently went through all the mundane changes by beta-readers and those of a handful of draft readers - major plot clarity/ambiguity aside - were never fixed. Bakker didn't seem to know that as he was pretty damn surprised when he found out on Saturday that the typos caught by Madness, Wilshire, and Bakkerfans didn't make it into the final version.

Wait - if madness, bakkerfans and Wilshire all submitted typo fixes, it can't be the case that only two of the beta readers read TGO. 

I think either what beta reader vs draft reader means something very specific that we don't really care about or there's a lie here. 

Also, which of the 9 are you?

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Well I think the argument about plot points is best left for a spoiler thread.

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Posted (edited)

How long will it be necessary to keep a non-spoiler thread up? Dividing the discussion between two threads seems less than ideal

Edited by odium

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5 hours ago, odium said:

How long will it be necessary to keep a non-spoiler thread up? Dividing the discussion between two threads seems less than ideal

I think we were going to wait for the next thread, but both this and the spoiler one seem to have lost momentum.

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