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Bakker L - Unholy Consultation and Collaboration (Now with TUC Spoilers!)

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42 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Bakker's ideal fanbase is RoH.

I think it's actually Vox Day and a couple of neuropsych professors, all jerking each other off. 

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Here I go again. I just started The Great Ordeal, and I really don't like progressing when I'm lost and unsure about whether I should be lost. So, Chapter One, the passage that goes "There is a head on a pole behind you." Pretty hard to follow in no small part due to not knowing what all the pronouns refer to, what the Sons are (Sranc?), or what the Countless Dead are. For some reason I have it in my head that this passage is about the No-God, but I'm not sure what is leading me to believe that.

Could someone clear this up for me to the extent to which it should be clear for me at this point (so nothing based on things to come in the book)? It's very hard to follow.

Also, I have a question about the one Kellhus POV we've had this entire series up to this point. It's where he's talking to Proyas, and it's the passage right before the "head on the pole" one. I'm confused as to how the Dunyain see the oak grove as sacred when they don't have any connection to religion. Or why a show of physical precision (coin and leaf thing) is the determiner of who has children. Or how that "rite" relates to Kellhus's talk with Proyas. Like, I'm gathering that he needs Proyas to do something, without Proyas having his faith in Kellhus as a crutch. But why does the passage refer back to the coin and leaf thing? The coin and leaf rite and Kellhus testing Proyas seem to be representing different concepts, so I'm a bit lost here too.

Again, I know it may be better to just read on and see what I can gather myself, but it's hard doing so without knowing I'm gathering everything Bakker wants me to.

If you do respond to me, please quote me so that the notification links me directly to your response. Thanks.

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That scene is in the Outside. The sons are Ciphrang and the countless dead are the souls of people who died, who are presumably all damned. 

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6 hours ago, YoungBoulheim said:

Here I go again. I just started The Great Ordeal, and I really don't like progressing when I'm lost and unsure about whether I should be lost. So, Chapter One, the passage that goes "There is a head on a pole behind you." Pretty hard to follow in no small part due to not knowing what all the pronouns refer to, what the Sons are (Sranc?), or what the Countless Dead are. For some reason I have it in my head that this passage is about the No-God, but I'm not sure what is leading me to believe that.

Could someone clear this up for me to the extent to which it should be clear for me at this point (so nothing based on things to come in the book)? It's very hard to follow.

Also, I have a question about the one Kellhus POV we've had this entire series up to this point. It's where he's talking to Proyas, and it's the passage right before the "head on the pole" one. I'm confused as to how the Dunyain see the oak grove as sacred when they don't have any connection to religion. Or why a show of physical precision (coin and leaf thing) is the determiner of who has children. Or how that "rite" relates to Kellhus's talk with Proyas. Like, I'm gathering that he needs Proyas to do something, without Proyas having his faith in Kellhus as a crutch. But why does the passage refer back to the coin and leaf thing? The coin and leaf rite and Kellhus testing Proyas seem to be representing different concepts, so I'm a bit lost here too.

Again, I know it may be better to just read on and see what I can gather myself, but it's hard doing so without knowing I'm gathering everything Bakker wants me to.

If you do respond to me, please quote me so that the notification links me directly to your response. Thanks.

 

5 hours ago, Hello World said:

That scene is in the Outside. The sons are Ciphrang and the countless dead are the souls of people who died, who are presumably all damned. 

Here. Now it is quoted.

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7 hours ago, YoungBoulheim said:

I'm confused as to how the Dunyain see the oak grove as sacred when they don't have any connection to religion. Or why a show of physical precision (coin and leaf thing) is the determiner of who has children.

You know I do notice that trees seem to be an ongoing motif with Bakker, but fuck if I know what it means. Someone else around here probably will.

Although, I wouldn't say that the Dunyain have no connection to religion. It's true that don't worship a conscious entity of some kind, but they still function a lot like a religious order. Bakker said he initially based them off of Shaolin Monks and the Benne Gesserits from Dune (which were in turn based off Frank Herbert's experience with Jesuits).

In terms of exactly what Kellhus is trying to do with Proyas, there's no way of answering that without spoiling material well into TUC.

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12 hours ago, redeagl said:

 

Here. Now it is quoted.

Am I supposed to know what each of the pronouns refer to? There was "you" and "me" in that passage. Was I right about it being about the No-God, or is it too soon to say whether I'm right or wrong?

And yeah, I agree that the Dunyain do have tendencies that you would see in a religious order, and Moenghus even said that the Dunyains' ultimate goal is tied to God in some sense in TTT. I just don't get why the leaf and coin thing is a determiner of who gets to pass on their blood.

I will say this, the second half of TWLW and the very beginning of TGO seem to be marking a certain shift in tone. Things seem "heavier," for lack of a better word. The last two chapters of the last book (near the Library of Sauglish and in the Temple Xothei) elicited a lot of emotions in me. They disturbed me, in a good way. It's hard to describe.

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I think the coin and leaf is to show you/remind you Kellhus isn't interacting with Proyas as a human being - he is an it to a Dunyain. A leaf to bring down with a coin.

Never mind what that coin/leaf ritual is associated with, which is rape.

Edit: The leaf and coin might not be the only test, but clearly it's just more of the Dunyain thing of breeding for physical and intellectual perfection. Not love.

Edited by Callan S.

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So after reading a bit further and seeing more of Kellhus and Proyas's conversation, it would seem the previous cryptic passage is about God and Kellhus. "You" is Kellhus, and the head on the pole is God. That's what I'm gathering. I still don't know who the speaker is (can't just be third person omniscient because it says "me" at one point, and isn't written in that manner anyway, it seems).

Also, the part about Kellhus's heart crashing into ruin as a result of his empire crumbling. Does this refer to him being "broken-hearted," or him becoming damned (I doubt this)? So hard to puzzle this out when I can't tell if I should be following completely or reading on and gathering more details.

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@YoungBoulheim The symbolism of Dunyain breeding in connection to Kellhus and Proyas will make more sense once Achamian and Mimara have had a chance to explore Ishual.

Just keep reading.

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So I just encountered the second character death in recent moments in the books that made me go "Uhh..." Not only do I not get how Meppa was killed, but I also don't get how he had no answer for it. If I'm understanding right, Esmenet's Chorae destroyed his Wards (which I didn't know was possible), and the imperial archers finished him off. But can't sorcerers detect Chorae? Even if Cishaurim can't for whatever reason, he had to at least know that there may be at least one Chorae somewhere nearby, possibly. Like, compare his approach to the Scarlet Spires in TTT, who had themselves completely encased with soldiers and shields.

This comes not long after Kosoter's death, who somehow just forgot that his company wanted him dead (Galian claims that Kosoter had been aware of their mutiny for a while) and would kill him the first chance they were able to (like not having Cleric by his side). I don't know. Maybe it was the case that he had done everything Maithanet/Kellhus had asked him to, so he had no need of living on past that point, but I don't really believe that.

Also, the description of Meppa falling outward makes little sense to me. How did he fall at an arc over the strewn horsemen? If he was salt it would make sense, but it's never said that the Chorae got him.

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39 minutes ago, YoungBoulheim said:

So I just encountered the second character death in recent moments in the books that made me go "Uhh..." Not only do I not get how Meppa was killed, but I also don't get how he had no answer for it. If I'm understanding right, Esmenet's Chorae destroyed his Wards (which I didn't know was possible), and the imperial archers finished him off. But can't sorcerers detect Chorae? Even if Cishaurim can't for whatever reason, he had to at least know that there may be at least one Chorae somewhere nearby, possibly. Like, compare his approach to the Scarlet Spires in TTT, who had themselves completely encased with soldiers and shields.

This comes not long after Kosoter's death, who somehow just forgot that his company wanted him dead (Galian claims that Kosoter had been aware of their mutiny for a while) and would kill him the first chance they were able to (like not having Cleric by his side). I don't know. Maybe it was the case that he had done everything Maithanet/Kellhus had asked him to, so he had no need of living on past that point, but I don't really believe that.

Also, the description of Meppa falling outward makes little sense to me. How did he fall at an arc over the strewn horsemen? If he was salt it would make sense, but it's never said that the Chorae got him.

Keep reading regarding Meppa. As for Kosoter, it's author convenience. Something that happens all too frequently in TAE.

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20 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

Keep reading regarding Meppa. As for Kosoter, it's author convenience. Something that happens all too frequently in TAE.

If that were the case, would it really be that hard for Bakker to have Kosoter killed by a random Sranc attack? Or Cleric? Or Wutteat? Or the skinspy?

Kosotor knew his men were going to kill him, but realistically, what could he have done about it other than stay the course and hope he got the chance to kill enough of them to shift the power balance before they made their move?

@YoungBoulheim Many of the questions you've been asking get answered in the text. I would just keep a list of things that you want clarity on, and ask once you finish the book (or books). I think you'll find that you cross half that list off before you have the chance to ask. At least until you finish TGO. The more you dip into this thread in the meantime, the more likely you are to be incidentally spoiled.

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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My main problem with TWLW and TGO was that too many interesting characters died too early.  I wanted them to stick around longer.

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Since the other TUC topic has closed, I think that it's okay to start discussing spoilers in this thread along with any other news or information. Is that cool, @Werthead?

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1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Since the other TUC topic has closed, I think that it's okay to start discussing spoilers in this thread along with any other news or information. Is that cool, @Werthead?

Sure, knock yourselves out.

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6 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

SNAPE KILLS BULBASAUR

This is the kind of hateful speech that creates an absolutely toxic environment for fans of The Series and continues to perpetuate your petty fiefdom here. 

How dare you, good sir. You do not deserve to read The Series. 

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@Kalbear. To answer your questions regarding the foreshadowing. One, I take it as in text evidence of foreshadowing. Why do I need Bakker to tell me he planned it, for it to be foreshadowing. The passage and what later occurred at Sauglish fit together as that passage being foreshadowing. I don't remember your other question ask away.

@Darth Richard II, you can say I whine and cry, whatever. That's your explanation for me having a different view of all this. The AMA virtually means shit to me. I believe that Bakker Troll theory to an extent. I've went over this. I think it fairly easy to tell when we're getting truth from the man and being trolled. So, I interpret the books on my own and dont look to what Bakker says as proof of one thing or another, to an extent, for reasons above. Why is this hard to understand?

Edited by Michael Seswatha Jordan

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@unJon, I initially dismissed the Cnaüir became Ajokli at the end there. I do like your and @Let's Get Kraken ideas on it though. Just I have a problem with what comes after determi we what comes before as a rule in Earwa, mean I g the only rule. Now, I will believe this, and only this will confirm it to me. That Akka dreams are his own, somehow. He literally is Seswatha, is what I mean. And, how can this be? We know the Mandate was created by Seswatha after the 1st apocalypae. An example of what comes before determines what comes after. 

Though, thinking on it, Cnaüir becoming does make a lot of sense. Ajokli is the God of Hate, who embodies that more than Cnaüir? With the way time works on the Outside it wouldn't matter when Ajokli became a God, would still get all the benefits. And, also aligns with myths on Ajokli about seeing TNG and being a companion to the Gods. 

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