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The identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree


Ser Petyr Parker

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3 hours ago, Kienn said:

It's definitely Ned.

He is, in fact, established as notably short. Especially during the tournament when he wasn't yet full grown.

The booming voice is a stronger link than anything for Lyanna.

Ned is never called short in the entire series. If your next move is "but he was shorter than his older brother", then remember that the same is true for the Clegane bros or the Baratheon bros - the oldest being the biggest doesn't in any way imply the younger being shortasses.

Ned is never ever depicted as actually having a "booming voice".

There's no good reason for Ned to scavenge for an ill-fitting armor, to hide his face and name, or to put a laughing tree on his shield (laughing? Ned Stark? Ned "you never were the boy you were" Stark?).

There's no good reason for the author to keep the knight's identity secret.

So, Ned makes no sense in-universe, and no sense storywise.

3 hours ago, Kienn said:

In truth there are a dozen plausible and narratively effective reasons for Ned to be the KotLT,

Bring them.

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28 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

We are told that the animals you skinchange effect you.  More specifically we are told that spending time in prey animals will make you fearful.  Lyanna and Brandon are literally the opposite of fearful people, being described as having wolf blood.

An interesting point, but I'm not really sure that I consider horses "prey" animals in the traditional sense.  Especially considering in Westeros, horses are an integral part of warfare, both actual and simulated.  Surely you wouldn't call Sandor's horse "fearful".

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3 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Ned would have been full grown at this point

Jon specifically states that Robb was the better jouster, he was the better sword.  That does not link her to Jon.

 

According to Catelyn Ned was shorter during their wedding. The wedding was after the tournament. Ipso facto Ned wasn't full grown at the tourney despite what you assume "would" be the case.

 

Robb being a better jouster than Jon only helps my point... 

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1 hour ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

Where was Stannis during the T@H?  Could it be possible that he suited up as a knight to prove to himself that he was just as much a strong warrior as his big brother?

My vote for tKotLT is Stannis.  But I'm probably wrong.

I don't see it personally. It would be a very random story for Meera to tell Bran, especially when the Reeds expected Bran to know about it. Also, Stannis wouldn't prove anything if he was the KotLT anonymously, and the Weirwood is a strange choice of sigil for someone who does not worship the old gods.

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1 hour ago, Kienn said:

According to Catelyn Ned was shorter during their wedding. The wedding was after the tournament. Ipso facto Ned wasn't full grown at the tourney despite what you assume "would" be the case.

 

Cat only says that Ned was shorter (and plainer) than Brandon. Neither she nor anyone else ever says that Ned was short for his age or shorter than average people.

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1 hour ago, Kienn said:

According to Catelyn Ned was shorter during their wedding. The wedding was after the tournament. Ipso facto Ned wasn't full grown at the tourney despite what you assume "would" be the case.

 

Robb being a better jouster than Jon only helps my point... 

Ned was 18 at Harrenhal, he was fully grown, because people are fully grown at that age. They may become broader, but not taller. If he was able to carry a 6ft tall sword on his back, he has to be taller than that sword, hence he must've been over 6 ft at 18.

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30 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Ned was 18 at Harrenhal, he was fully grown, because people are fully grown at that age. They may become broader, but not taller. If he was able to carry a 6ft tall sword on his back, he has to be taller than that sword, hence he must've been over 6 ft at 18.

If you are referring the a 6ft sword Ned carried as being Ice, well, Ned did not carry Ice in battle because it was too big and a ceremonial sword at that. There is an SSM out there that also confirms this. 

That is why Ice "melted" down into two swords while at Kings Landing. Ice belongs in the north. 

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11 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

If you are referring the a 6ft sword Ned carried as being Ice, well, Ned did not carry Ice in battle because it was too big and a ceremonial sword at that. There is an SSM out there that also confirms this. 

That is why Ice "melted" down into two swords while at Kings Landing. Ice belongs in the north. 

I'm not talking about carrying Ice in battle, I'm talking about being able to carry it on his back and handling it in general, even as a ceremonial sword! Although I wasn't aware of that SSM, and would like to see it). Ice is a bigass sword that would be impossible to carry out use for anyone under 6ft. Ned simply cannot have been notably short. He was simply shorter than Brandon, who was notably tall. Being shorter than someone who's tall doesn't make you short. 

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21 hours ago, Makk said:

It was clearly Lyanna imo. The voice is odd but that is an absolutely minor issue compared to all the clues and the meaning to the story it gives if it was her. I have absolutely no problem with her easily beating them at jousting. We saw her scatter them (all three at once) with a tourney sword after they were beating up Howland, it's implied her athleticism, coordination and determination was significantly greater than all of them.

It's our only window into her meeting with Rhaegar, it explains why he crowned her and what piqued his interest, and why they probably fell in love. She has the motive to teach the squires a lesson and stick up for Howland. There have been clues dropped that she was an excellent rider. The story has no meaning or point if it was anyone else other than her.

/thread 

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3 hours ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

Where was Stannis during the T@H?  Could it be possible that he suited up as a knight to prove to himself that he was just as much a strong warrior as his big brother?

My vote for tKotLT is Stannis.  But I'm probably wrong.

Aside from Stannis as TKOTLT not making sense or serving a purpose, I strongly doubt a sixteen or seventeen year old Stannis was "short of stature," whether he was at the tourney or not.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII

"By then Ser Gregor Clegane was in position at the head of the lists. He was huge, the biggest man that Eddard Stark had ever seen. Robert Baratheon and his brothers were all big men, as was the Hound, and back at Winterfell there was a simpleminded stableboy named Hodor who dwarfed them all, but the knight they called the Mountain That Rides would have towered over Hodor. He was well over seven feet tall, closer to eight, with massive shoulders and arms thick as the trunks of small trees. His destrier seemed a pony in between his armored legs, and the lance he carried looked as small as a broom handle."

 

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Could the 6ft sword Ice and it being melted into two represent the split that occurred in Ice?

Jon would represent the re-forging of that split.

He did find the sixth pup (White/Ice) and the other five are (Dark/Fire), which were found by Robb.

That Tourney is obviously important, if Howlands appearance at the tourney was intentional, then I would think he would be the KOLT.

If it was just by chance he appeared, I would lean towards Lyanna being the KOLT.

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9 hours ago, Kienn said:

The sad truth is that the theory for Lyanna is only popular because of R+L=J. People think it "enhances" RLJ somehow so they grasp onto it.

Well, they think it establishes the Hollywoodian meet-cute for the two.  This is all-important.

(Never mind the objective fact that the story says the dragon prince never found the Knight.  This can safely be disregarded on the grounds that it's inconvenient.)

The Knight must have been Lyanna because Jaime said jousting was mostly about horseriding.  And when he said that, we can be sure Jaime was imagining a fourteen year old girl with no training or experience in jousting that can be established in canon, going up against three grown knights all of whom had training or experience.  

Jaime definitely wasn't talking about two knights who were fundamentally the same except that one was a better rider, and predicting the better rider would win most of the time.  (That would be too logical.)

We know Lyanna was a badass because we know she trained with swords because, um... because she beat her younger brother Benjen in stickfighting when he was prepubescent.

Oh, and also because after announcing she was Lord Stark's daughter ("that's my father's man you're kicking"), she was able to scatter three squires.  Which is a thing Cersei could have done too, by fiercely wielding a spoon, after announcing she was Tywin's daughter.

We won't get into the humiliation Howland must have felt, repeatedly telling his children this story that made him look so weak and helpless.  However bad he felt, he knew they should understand this crucial lesson: that they too were weak and helpess, and in their future lives, they must always hope someone else would be willing to solve their problems for them.  All fathers want their children to understand that.

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39 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I'm not talking about carrying Ice in battle, I'm talking about being able to carry it on his back and handling it in general, even as a ceremonial sword! Although I wasn't aware of that SSM, and would like to see it). Ice is a bigass sword that would be impossible to carry out use for anyone under 6ft. Ned simply cannot have been notably short. He was simply shorter than Brandon, who was notably tall. Being shorter than someone who's tall doesn't make you short. 

Sorry for not editing. I'm on my phone and sneaking while at work :P

Try this one 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Stockholm_and_Archipelacon_Report

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43 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I'm not talking about carrying Ice in battle, I'm talking about being able to carry it on his back and handling it in general, even as a ceremonial sword! Although I wasn't aware of that SSM, and would like to see it). Ice is a bigass sword that would be impossible to carry out use for anyone under 6ft. Ned simply cannot have been notably short. He was simply shorter than Brandon, who was notably tall. Being shorter than someone who's tall doesn't make you short. 

Here:

2) Asked if Ned ever used Ice in battle. George points out it was a greatsword, very large and cumbersome, a ceremonial sword for beheading people more than a fighting sword, so he suggests that it was "probably too heavy and clumsy" to use unless you're the Mountain. So, I think that's a pretty clear "no".

:ninja:'ed by @The Fattest Leech! :P

 

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Sorry for not editing. I'm on my phone and sneaking while at work :P

Try this one 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Stockholm_and_Archipelacon_Report

 

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Here:

2) Asked if Ned ever used Ice in battle. George points out it was a greatsword, very large and cumbersome, a ceremonial sword for beheading people more than a fighting sword, so he suggests that it was "probably too heavy and clumsy" to use unless you're the Mountain. So, I think that's a pretty clear "no".

:ninja:'ed by @The Fattest Leech! :P

 

Well in that case we can at least safely conclude that Ned was shorter than the Mountain (and Brandon) :ph34r:

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8 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Ned is never called short in the entire series.

Nor is he called tall, or even average height.

8 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Ned is never ever depicted as actually having a "booming voice".

Jon is never described as looking like Lyanna. And yet people believe it by the transitive property of ASoIaF.

8 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

There's no good reason for Ned to scavenge for an ill-fitting armor

Perhaps he didn't plan on jousting at the tourney so he didn't bring his own. Ned is often compared to Baelor Breakspear and that is the reason Baelor gives for wearing the armor he does... to stand up for honor... Familiar?

 Or perhaps it would be foolish for a mystery knight to wear his own recognizable armor...

8 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

There's no good reason ... to hide his face and name

1) He felt like it.

2) He's shy.

3) He didn't want to bring attention to his house in front of nearly every house of the realm. But he felt he needed to stand up for his family's subject's honor.

8 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

There's no good reason ... put a laughing tree on his shield (laughing? Ned Stark? Ned "you never were the boy you were" Stark?).

Robert was called the Laughing Storm reborn, but Ned is a pious northerner and certainly doesn't have the "wolf blood" so a weirwood would actually fit quite well as a personal sigil if he were to ever make one. As for laughing - Ned is mentioned laughing many times throughout the books (have you read them?). As for why Robert would say that, let's use your own logic... Ned is more mature than Robert. But being more mature than Robert doesn't mean he never has fun.

8 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

There's no good reason for the author to keep the knight's identity secret.

There's no good reason to for the author to keep any detail of Robert's Rebellion and the events leading up to it a secret...

Oh wait, yea there is. It's called telling a story properly.

---

3 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

If he was able to carry a 6ft tall sword on his back, he has to be taller than that sword, hence he must've been over 6 ft at 18.

1) Ice is 57 inches long, or 4.75 feet (hilt included). Not 6.

2) When does Ned ever wield Ice from his back?

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8 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

 

Well in that case we can at least safely conclude that Ned was shorter than the Mountain (and Brandon) :ph34r:

Good examples. And reminded me of Gregor and Sandor... the latter is shorter but by no means short! ;)

 

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8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

An interesting point, but I'm not really sure that I consider horses "prey" animals in the traditional sense.  Especially considering in Westeros, horses are an integral part of warfare, both actual and simulated.  Surely you wouldn't call Sandor's horse "fearful".

I did think of that, and it's a fair point that war horses are trained to kill, but I think in terms of their nature, they are no different from deer or any of those types of herbivors in they will run from predators rather than fight.

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