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theMADdestScientist_

Two very important characters might have been merged on the show, and they will share the same storyline.

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Posted (edited)

Since i heard about Rhaegar's annulment, i thought: why would D&D want to make Rhaegar annul his marriage to Elia?

At first i thought it maked sense, but now i'm not so sure anymore.

This got me thinking, and with some help, i realized that...this does not make sense for the books, but it does for the show.

In the books, we have Aegon Targaryen/Young Griff, the supposed son of Rhaegar and Elia Martell, who survived the sack of King's Landing thanks to Varys. Many will agree with me that his role in the books will be to test Dany and see what she will do when she finds out about this kid with a far better claim to the throne.

We thought we would not have this on the show though, because there was no time to include Aegon. But now that Jon is finally legitimate(something that only happened because his father annulled his previous marriage according to D&D), this changes everything. If we learn that Jon's true name is "Aegon" by the end of this season, then i got it right, Jon got Aegon/Young Griff's storyline.

This was D&D's way of simplifying everything, which is totally understandable. By doing this, the viewers(show-only fans) don't get confused with Rhaegar and his two wives(i believe he married both women).

In the books, i don't believe that Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia, he could still marry Lyanna without setting Elia aside, that's the point of Aegon the Conqueror, the man who had two wives. Besides, Rhaegar was into prophecy in the books, something that the show has never talked about. And Rhaegar wanted at least three legitimate children, because "the dragon had three heads" apparently.

George did talk to a fan about an annulment back in 2000, but the marriage in question was that of Sansa and Tyrion, and their marriage was not consummated, they had a justifiable reason for an annulment, in case they wanted one.

Rhaegar on the other hand, did not have a justifiable reason for an annulment, nor do i think he would have ever tried to annul his marriage. Elia Martell was nothing but a dutiful wife to him, and their children needed to remain legitimate, because an annulment might have taken their legitimacy away(in some cases an annulment does not take a child's legitimacy. Nonetheless, this would still be too risky for Rhaegar). Rhaegar would find himself into deep trouble with Dorne as well, if they ever found out that he ended his marriage to Elia, which is another reason for me to believe he didn't.

Also, we have proof that Rhaegar did not set Elia aside, in the books at least. One thing that George does extremely well, is to pay attention to detail. Like this one important detail in one of Jaime's dreams in ASOS.

Quote

 

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king . . .

 

Rhaegar refers to Elia as his wife, even after death. The only time Rhaegar has ever mentioned Elia, and he refers to her as his wife, no less.

Dream or not, this is Rhaegar Targaryen, he barely appears in the books, but when he does, everything he says should be dissected, everything.

He could have simply said: "I left Elia and our children in your hands", but he refers to Elia as his wife. George was leaving a clue there, and it was intentional, as intentional as the tale about the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

Rhaegar Targaryen likely had two wives in the books, just like Aegon the Conqueror.

Also, interestingly enough, Rhaegar was compared to Aegon the Conqueror before, this happened in TWOIAF

Quote

Prince Rhaegar emerged as the ultimate victor at the end of the competition. The crown prince, who did not normally compete in tourneys, surprised all by donning his armor and defeating every foe he faced, including four knights of the Kingsguard. In the final tilt, he unhorsed Ser Barristan Selmy, generally regarded as the finest lance in all the Seven Kingdoms, to win the champion’s laurels. The cheers of the crowd were said to be deafening, but King Aerys did not join them. Far from being proud and pleased by his heir’s skill at arms, His Grace saw it as a threat. Lords Chelsted and Staunton inflamed his suspicions further, declaring that Prince Rhaegar had entered the lists to curry favor with the commons and remind the assembled lords that he was a puissant warrior, a true heir to Aegon the Conqueror.


After talking to Linda Antonsson(one of the authors of TWOIAF) on twitter, she was able to talk some sense into me when i was trying to argue with her that an annulment did make sense, but she gave me some very good facts as to why it would not work in the books.

I now truly believe the show made Rhaegar annul his marriage to Elia because it would be easier for the viewers(show-only fans in general) to understand this. It would be far more complicated to explain to show-only fans how a guy can marry two women in Westeros.

Now, what you guys think about this?

 

TL;DR Rhaegar did not annul his marriage to Elia Martell in the books, but they made him annul his marriage in the show because it would be easier for show-only fans to understand how Jon is legitimate, instead of explaining how a guy can have two wives in Westeros. Jon Snow got Aegon/Young Griff's storyline on the show.

Edited by theMADdestScientist_

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Nice theory but I think they merged Cersei & Aegon, hence giving Cersei the Reach, Euron & Dorne. The fight between Cersei and Dany in the show is the battle between Dany & Aegon in the books

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Posted (edited)

I'm just not seeing it. I think the annulment was just for expediency. 

Now, if Jon sails to Dorn and starts fighting his way north... maybe. 

I just have serious doubts that they would merge any of the top three characters with any second or third tier characters.  

Edited by Lurid Jester

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That would work if Jon were not a pushover who would step back and leave the IT for the hot dragon queen as soon as he learns his true parentage. 

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I want to disagree with you but at this rate, I wouldn't be surprised by anything D&D do. I liked the whole Young Griff/Aegon thing going on in the books, so I always wanted to see it in the show, but not like that. I hope they don't merge Jon with anything, let him be him.

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I think you may be on to something if we see Varys and Tyrion actively switch to supporting Jon for the IT, but I'm with @RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon that Cersei is taking up more of Aegon's likely plotline than Jon.  I sort of had the composite characters like this...

Jon = Jon+Stannis

Arya=Arya+Lady Stoneheart

Cersei=Cersei+Aegon

Jorah=Jorah+JonCon

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11 hours ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

Nice theory but I think they merged Cersei & Aegon, hence giving Cersei the Reach, Euron & Dorne. The fight between Cersei and Dany in the show is the battle between Dany & Aegon in the books

There's no reason the merger had to be that straightforward—and, really, no way it could be. I mean, clearly show!Cersei isn't going to be landing on the coast, turning the Dornish and Reacher Lords against the Lannisters, and striking at King's Landing, that's Dany. And Cersei doesn't have a JonConn parallel with her, Dany does. And so on.

The fight between show!Cersei and show!Dany is one part book!Lannisters vs. book!Aegon, one part book!Aegon vs, book!Dany, and one part (at least) new stuff invented to make the adaptation work. In the other direction, some of Aegon's plotlines and thematic points go to Cersei, some go to Dany, and some to neither. So, there's no reason not to expect some to go to Jon if they fit.

But that also means that the OP is wrong to try to use show!Jon getting part of book!Aegon's story to prove that show!Jon must get other parts of book!Aegon's story, because show!Jon isn't going to do any of the stuff mentioned above either.

In fact, little bits of Aegon's story have already ended up on other people as they simplify and rewrite. For example, Sansa has become the show's example of someone who was raised from infancy to be noble to contrast with the accidental monarch (now Jon rather than Dany) who had to learn everything the hard way.

All that being said, I think the OP's conclusion is right, for the simplest reasons:

16 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

they made him annul his marriage in the show because it would be easier for show-only fans to understand how Jon is legitimate, instead of explaining how a guy can have two wives in Westeros.

Of course. In popular understanding, annulments are something that are often valid, and bigamy is something that's rarely or never valid. You don't need to explain any more than that.

In the books, on the other hand, historical digressions are extra fun instead of stuff that gets in the way, and parallels to other strands of the story that were written years ago are more powerful, and world building takes more signposting the differences between Westeros and England and less subtly doing it with costumes, and so on, so yeah, GRRM is much more likely to establish a case for legitimate bigamy for Aegon than D&D were for Jon.

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17 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Rhaegar refers to Elia as his wife, even after death. The only time Rhaegar has ever mentioned Elia, and he refers to her as his wife, no less.

This is Jaime's dream, so it's based on his knowledge. Just wanted to but in with that.

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Quote
 
TL;DR Rhaegar did not annul his marriage to Elia Martell in the books, but they made him annul his marriage in the show because it would be easier for show-only fans to understand how Jon is legitimate, instead of explaining how a guy can have two wives in Westeros. Jon Snow got Aegon/Young Griff's storyline on the show.

This without the Aegon part. All the show decided to do with the Aegon storyline was to get a pair of big scissors and CUT. (Wise choice, btw) they weren't thinking about doing anything with the Aegon storyline. 

Goal: Jon Is the ultimate hero and king. Obstacle: even though a Targaryen, Jon is a bastard. Solution: Rhaegar married Lyanna. Obstacle: Rhaegar already had a wife. Solution: divorce. Path to goal cleared. 

It's so obvious and straightforward, I'm surprised this sparked such strong feelings and so much debate/discussion. I seriously don't see how does his make Rhaegar a better or worse guy than he was in the books and it's clearly more convenient than feeding the audience a history of poligamy among Targaryens and putting enough time and effort into making Rhaegar sympathetic enough so the audience can overcome their natural reluctance towards the idea of poligamy and embrace it like they embraced the twincest and adore Jaime(and/or Cersei). 

I mean I don't think this makes a relevant difference in anything. It's also hardly the most illogical twist in the show so I don't know... for my part it's just a shrug and rolling with it. The books will probably go the exact same way they'd just take a more crooked path towards making Jon the ultimate hero through the polygamy card or other. (Not that we'll find out. ) 

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1 hour ago, falcotron said:

There's no reason the merger had to be that straightforward—and, really, no way it could be. I mean, clearly show!Cersei isn't going to be landing on the coast, turning the Dornish and Reacher Lords against the Lannisters, and striking at King's Landing, that's Dany. And Cersei doesn't have a JonConn parallel with her, Dany does. And so on.

The fight between show!Cersei and show!Dany is one part book!Lannisters vs. book!Aegon, one part book!Aegon vs, book!Dany, and one part (at least) new stuff invented to make the adaptation work. In the other direction, some of Aegon's plotlines and thematic points go to Cersei, some go to Dany, and some to neither.

I actually think the Aegon vs Cersei wont be much of a war. Looks like Aegon will start Winds with Stormlands, Dorne & the Reach, I can see Euron pretending to pledge fealty to Aegon for a while. So all Cersei will hold is KL. So we can expect Aegon's battle for KL to happen first thing in Winds & that will, I believe be the end of Cersei. 

By mid book we'll have Dany & Aegon facing off like Cersei & Dany are in the show. 

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Where is everyone getting this "Elia the poor, dutiful wife" thing from? We have no idea what their relationship was.

The reason for the clumsily delivered information about annulment is to make sure Jon is not a bastard and clearly the heir to the Seven Kingdoms. They could have just as easily had some random character say "Oh no, it's fine to have two wives", just as they had Missandei announce that the Valyrian word for "prince" can also mean "princess". But the latter is just a bit more complicated and makes it easier for people to say Lyanna wasn't Rhaegar's real wife and therefore Jon is still a bastard. It's not complicated; it's lazy and simple.

What does any of it have to do with Aegon? Nothing about his story applies to Jon Snow.

As for Jaime's dream, as others have said, Rhaegar didn't choose those words; Jaime did.

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Posted (edited)

The Golden Company, as far as I've understood, is coming for Cersei.

So on the battlefield (f)Aegon place is taken by Cersei (imho).

Edited by ERRI8013
Correct name

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Just now, ERRI8013 said:

The Golden Army, as far as I've understood, is coming for Cersei.

So on the battlefield (f)Aegon place is taken by Cersei (imho).

Just letting myself imagine that D&D have kept one big secret from everyone, and when the Golden Company arrive in Westeros to help Cersei, a blue haired young man steps off the ship accompanied by a red bearded man, who pours some hot water over the blue haired boy's head. The blue dye streams down his face and armour, leaving the fresh silvery glow of what can only resemble Valyrian hair. Cersei and Qyburn's faces drop. The Golden Company hoist there banners, revealing the three headed dragon of House Targaryen...

Nah, too good to be true.

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30 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Just letting myself imagine that D&D have kept one big secret from everyone, and when the Golden Company arrive in Westeros to help Cersei, a blue haired young man steps off the ship accompanied by a red bearded man, who pours some hot water over the blue haired boy's head. The blue dye streams down his face and armour, leaving the fresh silvery glow of what can only resemble Valyrian hair. Cersei and Qyburn's faces drop. The Golden Company hoist there banners, revealing the three headed dragon of House Targaryen...

Nah, too good to be true.

For casual viewers who haven't read the books, that would seem like a dues ex machina against Cersei. It would be too late to bring in Aegon at this point in the show.

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2 hours ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

I actually think the Aegon vs Cersei wont be much of a war. Looks like Aegon will start Winds with Stormlands, Dorne & the Reach 

If you were right, starting with Dorne and the Reach is exactly what Dany, not Cersei, did in S7.

But that isn't even close to the situation at the start of Winds.

Aegon ends Dance planning to lead the attack on Storm's End (which Stannis's men still hold, and which Mace Tyrell recently dropped his siege on). He's captured three castles in the Stormlands. That—and the half of the Golden Company that landed successfully, of course—is all he starts with.

From preview chapters, it sounds like he may capture Storm's End pretty early, but that doesn't mean the Stormlands are going to fight for him.

The Reach not only aren't on his side, they're preparing to march their entire army, under Mace Tyrell and/or Randyll Tarly, to attack him, as soon as Margy is declared innocent. (And, while we don't know how the trial will end up, we do know from a previous chapter that Aegon will be leading an army to fight Mace and Randyll in Winds.)

Dorne aren't on his side either. Doran is considering it, but Doran considers a lot of things; so far, the only thing he's committed is sending his daughter as an envoy. (And from preview chapters, it seems like they don't think it's likely that he's really Aegon.)

Of course it's not hard to imagine that, a few chapters in, say, Doran might decide anyone who's fighting against both Mace Tyrell and Cersei Lannister must be worth supporting (and marrying Arianne), and meanwhile Randyll Tarly might betray Mace and bring most of the Reach armies over to his side instead of attacking him. But that's certainly not how Aegon is starting the book.

Meanwhile, it may well not be Cersei leading the other side. She's been stripped of all power. It's Cersei on the show because there's basically no other characters left, but in Winds, even if Cersei does somehow end up in power again, I can't imagine it'll happen right off the bat, in time for her to order Mace Tyrell into battle.

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I think we are at a point that is very difficult to analyze characters in the show. The last couple of seasons (or arguably more) we have seen the deconstruction of characters that took years to develop. Characters that were originally complex, vibrant and charismatic became flat and mediocre. The most notable examples to me are

Arya, Tryrion, LF and Varys..

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1 hour ago, falcotron said:

If you were right, starting with Dorne and the Reach is exactly what Dany, not Cersei, did in S7.

But that isn't even close to the situation at the start of Winds.

Aegon ends Dance planning to lead the attack on Storm's End (which Stannis's men still hold, and which Mace Tyrell recently dropped his siege on). He's captured three castles in the Stormlands. That—and the half of the Golden Company that landed successfully, of course—is all he starts with.

From preview chapters, it sounds like he may capture Storm's End pretty early, but that doesn't mean the Stormlands are going to fight for him.

The Reach not only aren't on his side, they're preparing to march their entire army, under Mace Tyrell and/or Randyll Tarly, to attack him, as soon as Margy is declared innocent. (And, while we don't know how the trial will end up, we do know from a previous chapter that Aegon will be leading an army to fight Mace and Randyll in Winds.)

Dorne aren't on his side either. Doran is considering it, but Doran considers a lot of things; so far, the only thing he's committed is sending his daughter as an envoy. (And from preview chapters, it seems like they don't think it's likely that he's really Aegon.)

Of course it's not hard to imagine that, a few chapters in, say, Doran might decide anyone who's fighting against both Mace Tyrell and Cersei Lannister must be worth supporting (and marrying Arianne), and meanwhile Randyll Tarly might betray Mace and bring most of the Reach armies over to his side instead of attacking him. But that's certainly not how Aegon is starting the book.

Meanwhile, it may well not be Cersei leading the other side. She's been stripped of all power. It's Cersei on the show because there's basically no other characters left, but in Winds, even if Cersei does somehow end up in power again, I can't imagine it'll happen right off the bat, in time for her to order Mace Tyrell into battle.

What we can see from preview chapters is Doran is weighing his options. His son has died in Dany's custody & arianne wud b a good match for Aegon in which Dorne wud b partners. I cant see Dorne going anywhere other than Aegon. As soon as Doran hears of Tristan it will be done.

Tarly seems to be leaning towards Targs from hints which suggests he's being primed, obvs we have to remember Varys is on Aegon not Dany's side. I think Randyl Tarly will take the Reach but prob after Cersei has destroyed the Tyrell leaders in KL.

Cersei is no match for all these & I think GRRM will be concious of not created too many wars after wars so Aegon vs Cersei will be resolved quickly. I think Aegon preps his forces and marches to KL, Cersei pannics (Tommen dies some how), she decides to burn the whole city rather than lose, has the wildfire set up. Jaime has come back and is around to learn of this plan & kills her before she gives the order. Aegon marches into KL unopposed. Then Dany lands at Dragonstone. Que Dance of Dragons 2.

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14 minutes ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

Tarly seems to be leaning towards Targs from hints which suggests he's being primed, obvs we have to remember Varys is on Aegon not Dany's side. I think Randyl Tarly will take the Reach but prob after Cersei has destroyed the Tyrell leaders in KL.

But from the preview chapters, Mace Tyrell is already out leading an army, along with Randyll Tarly, to attack Aegon. Cersei obviously can't have killed the Tyrell leaders before the Tyrell leader marches out to attack Aegon.

And meanwhile, if Tarly doesn't betray Mace before the battle, how is he going to be in any shape to take the Reach after losing to the GC? Or do you think they're going to beat the GC, so Aegon will then have to regroup and attack again later (after Cersei kills Mace and Tarly takes the Reach)?

I think you may be trying too hard to map the show to the book. D&D only had GRRM's notes from shortly after S5 aired to base S7 on. Of course they're going to incorporate most of the really exciting moments, and make sure all of the endgame characters survive long enough to reach their endgame, but I don't think they intend to—or even could—cover every twist of every character's plotline, much less find some way to map every twist of a deleted character's plotline onto a different character.

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38 minutes ago, falcotron said:

But from the preview chapters, Mace Tyrell is already out leading an army, along with Randyll Tarly, to attack Aegon. Cersei obviously can't have killed the Tyrell leaders before the Tyrell leader marches out to attack Aegon.

And meanwhile, if Tarly doesn't betray Mace before the battle, how is he going to be in any shape to take the Reach after losing to the GC? Or do you think they're going to beat the GC, so Aegon will then have to regroup and attack again later (after Cersei kills Mace and Tarly takes the Reach)?

I think you may be trying too hard to map the show to the book. D&D only had GRRM's notes from shortly after S5 aired to base S7 on. Of course they're going to incorporate most of the really exciting moments, and make sure all of the endgame characters survive long enough to reach their endgame, but I don't think they intend to—or even could—cover every twist of every character's plotline, much less find some way to map every twist of a deleted character's plotline onto a different character.

I think Cersei's politik will result in the death or margery & queen of thorns. I believe GRRM wants to give Aegon a strong hand militarily for when Dany shows up for there too be a Dance of Dragons 2. That means he wont take many loses. I therefore think, Tarly will turn on whatever Tyrell is left & move to Aegon with forces in tact. If I recall the legends the Tyrells were never kings but promoted to lord of the Reach after Aegon wiped out the kings of the Reach. And i think the Tarly's also claim to have similar blood relationship to the old kings of the Reach. Pls correct me if I've confused them with another family. What that says to me is the Tarly's are proud & cud see a new Targ invasion as an opportunity. 

In any case my whole opinion is based on my belief that they'll be a big war between Dany & Aegon. For that to happen Aegon needs to gain as much land with as few a losses as possible before Dany shows. That means whatever the conflict with Cersei it will be short with few losses. Looking at history & situation as it stands I've made some guesses as to how Aegon can be in a position of strength.

I'm not trying to match the show these were my impressions after reading the preview chapters last year. I think the show just confirmed a lot of this to me in their treatment of Cersei.

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1 minute ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

I think Cersei's politik will result in the death or margery & queen of thorns. I believe GRRM wants to give Aegon a strong hand militarily for when Dany shows up for there too be a Dance of Dragons 2. That means he wont take many loses. I therefore think, Tarly will turn on whatever Tyrell is left & move to Aegon with forces in tact. If I recall the legends the Tyrells were never kings but promoted to lord of the Reach after Aegon wiped out the kings of the Reach. And i think the Tarly's also claim to have similar blood relationship to the old kings of the Reach. Pls correct me if I've confused them with another family. What that says to me is the Tarly's are proud & cud see a new Targ invasion as an opportunity. 

The first part, I agree with—but I think the obvious way for Aegon to not suffer many losses is for Tarly to switch sides before the upcoming battle, not later.

As for the rest, I think you're confusing the Tarlys with another family, possibly the Hightowers. It's true that the Tyrells were never kings; Aegon I put them in charge because they were the stewards to the Gardeners, and they only have a maternal-line claim to being a cadet branch of the Gardeners, which almost every major house in the Reach has. But I don't think the Tarlys are one of the 6 families that have a paternal-line Gardener claim. Nor are they one of the 4 families that the Tyrells have been regularly trading daughters and nieces with since the conquest. Nor are they pre-Gardener Kings. The Hightowers, on the other hand, have all three of those claims.

The reason the Tarlys matter so much, besides Randyll Tarly being Mace's general, is that they have a long tradition of military power. They're the ones who traditionally lead the Marcher Lords into battle with the Dornish, and the ones the Gardeners or Tyrells call up to lead the entire realm into battle.

The big problem for this plan is that the Tarlys hate the Dornish even more than most of the other major houses (which comes with being a Marcher Lord), so it should be tricky for Aegon to get both Randyll and Doran on the same side. But I think that's what he's most likely to pull off anyway, however it happens. (In fact, it might be pretty interesting if he manages to also get the Carons—who we haven't heard about since they lost Dragonstone after holding it for Stannis—because, as the equivalent to the Tarlys on the other border of Dorne, they have the next best reason to hate the Martells.)

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