US Politics: On Many Sides

[Morpheus]

Bye bye Bannon

[Seli]

4 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Question for today:

Just how morally reprehensible does something have to become before CEOs say, “That’s just too much, even for tax cuts!!”.

Evidently, it’s Nazism.

That’s a pretty low bar there. Guess it’s better than nuthin’.

...

The scary thing is that that bar is apparently still to high for the religious evangelical advice council.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/18/donald-trump-evangelicals-charlottesville

 

[The guy from the Vale]

It does make you incorrect, at least on European history being lost or replaced. If anything, noneuropean history was being far too ignored before, but this is not a zero-sum thing: A better understanding of world history helps understand European history, too. Moreover, Europeans are not being replaced to any considerable degree. It's just not happening. At current rates of growth, it'll take nonwhite immigrants to the Europe around 500 years until they'll outnumber whites, and our racist way of assigning race (one drop rule and all that) contributes, too.

 

And these views are Nazi propaganda. That they are so mainstream is precisely part of the frickin' problem.

[Zorral]

18 minutes ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

They are allowed to voice them. Their rally was permitted. The POTUS has just given them carte blanche. Those opinions are widespread and continue poisoning the well.

I'll also add that those far-too-often-articulated opinions about the a priori assumed inferiority of nonwhites (what else do you want to call their opinions on racial issues?) are the ideological breeding ground for the exact kind of neufascists we saw in Charlottesville. Those are the people who believe in Great Replacement conspiracy theories, Elders of Zion bullshit and the Lost Cause, which was definitely not of slavery at all.

Exactly.  There's a reason these slime at the bottom of the circle jerk public masturbators'  losers' barrel never speak of anyone -- including women (MRA seem to be the starter orgs for joining white supremacist groups, as it seems to be turning out that each terrorist has a history of abuse of women) -- other than themselves, white males, in any manner except 'animals,' 'savages,' 'filth,' and other equally charming epithets.

It seems only those who don't belong to any those groups so referred to who think this isn't a serious threat to anyone, despite the evidence that keeps piling up otherwise.

Thus, Native Americans protesting the toxic devastation of their land and water by sloppy frackin' pipelines get shot with rubber bullets, but these white circle jerkers get away free.  Thanks to Tina Fey for that last reminder --

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/watch-tina-fey-take-out-charlottesville-angst-on-cake-on-snl-w498421 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

4 minutes ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

It does make you incorrect, at least on European history being lost or replaced. If anything, noneuropean history was being far too ignored before, but this is not a zero-sum thing: A better understanding of world history helps understand European history, too. Moreover, Europeans are not being replaced to any considerable degree. It's just not happening. At current rates of growth, it'll take nonwhite immigrants to the Europe around 500 years until they'll outnumber whites, and our racist way of assigning race (one drop rule and all that) contributes, too.

 

And these views are Nazi propaganda. That they are so mainstream is precisely part of the frickin' problem.

I've seen some very different numbers. In Britain I've seen numbers suggesting white british could be a minority within 50 years (seems unlikely but suggests the rate of change). White Brits already are a minority in London, something unthinkable 20 - 30 years ago. There have been similar sorts of numbers bandied around about the US. I'm sure you could find similar reports in numerous european countries such as France or even Sweden. 

I don't think its purely the domain of Nazi's to be concerned about it, but calling anyone who is concerned about it a Nazi will only help to strengthen the far rights position on the matter.

 

[Zorral]

14 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I'm talking about a much more widespread view on issues that has nothing to do with the Nazi's. Views that there is too much immigration, that white / european history and culture is being lost and replaced, far more conservative viewpoints on racial incidents such as ferguson. You don't have to be a nazi to hold these views, and it doesn't make you incorrect either.

That flies no more than the pathetric little pudge pulling off his nazi shirt Saturday in Charlottesville, smirking at the camera and declaring "I'm barely a nazi?"  So he takes off the nazi with his shirt and puts it back on with his shirt?

Those are fundamentally nazi - racial hatred attitudes.

[S John]

4 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Yeah, I think a lot of conservatives would like to believe they have nothing to do with our current situation.

They want to play this game of “Golly, how did these Alt right cretins get into our ranks! We just don’t understand!! It has to be Obama or Soros!!!”

But, they shouldn’t be let off the hook. Conservatism has been getting crazier and crazier, putting us in the spot we are in today. And it’s time they be made to own up to it.
 

To me this is by far the most frustrating thing about talking to far right conservatives.  Most of them fully believe that nothing bad can come from true conservatism.  That the Nazi's are actually creatures of the left, and so are commies, therefore all the woes to the 20th century and of today are the fault of the left.  That it was Obama who created the division we are seeing in this country.  And that George Soros is public enemy #1.  Soros would have to be God-level omnipresent to be involved in all of the things he is accused of orchestrating.  They will not assign blame or responsibility for anything to conservative politics, which is very, very rich coming from the party of personal responsibility.  

Trump could wipe his ass with the Constitution and they'd blame Obama for leaving it near the bathroom.  

[The guy from the Vale]

1 minute ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I've seen some very different numbers. In Britain I've seen numbers suggesting white british could be a minority within 50 years (seems unlikely but suggests the rate of change). White Brits already are a minority in London, something unthinkable 20 - 30 years ago. There have been similar sorts of numbers bandied around about the US. I'm sure you could find similar reports in numerous european countries such as France or even Sweden. 

I don't think its purely the domain of Nazi's to be concerned about it, but calling anyone who is concerned about it a Nazi will only help to strengthen the far rights position on the matter.

 

White British (by current standards) would be at 49%. But the next large numers would be white Irish, white Polish, asian British and black British. Both Whites and British continue being the overwhelming majority compared to nonwhites or nonbritish, and will continue being so for centuries. You're falling for the Nazi propaganda, and you're not even realizing it.

Have a video on this very issue that crunches the numbers for 'ya:

 

[Fez]

27 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

It looks Bannon is out:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/us/politics/steve-bannon-trump-white-house.html?referer=http://www.drudgereport.com/

Unfortunately, Trump doesn't Bannon to be super racist; and losing Bannon means one less voice saying "hey, don't fucking start a nuclear war with North Korea."

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

12 minutes ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

White British (by current standards) would be at 49%. But the next large numers would be white Irish, white Polish, asian British and black British. Both Whites and British continue being the overwhelming majority compared to nonwhites or nonbritish, and will continue being so for centuries. You're falling for the Nazi propaganda, and you're not even realizing it.

Have a video on this very issue that crunches the numbers for 'ya:

 

Yes I'm very aware of that. Just because White British will still continue to be a majority because of the sheer number of other nationalities in the country doesn't really diminish why people might be concerned. Hence why we have Brexit.

 

Btw that video is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Trying to discuss the subject seriously yet equating anyone with immigration / culture concerns with being a nazi. 

[Morpheus]

6 minutes ago, Fez said:

Unfortunately, Trump doesn't Bannon to be super racist; and losing Bannon means one less voice saying "hey, don't fucking start a nuclear war with North Korea."

yeah, I don't think much will change. Sadly, Republicans are already taking this as a sign that Trump is making an effort to change. They are ready to put this week behind them and no Bannon = no alt right as far as they are concerned.

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Yes I'm very aware of that. Just because White British will still continue to be a majority because of the sheer number of other nationalities in the country doesn't really diminish why people might be concerned. Hence why we have Brexit.

Conversely, people being alarmed at things that aren't actually a big deal does not mean that those things are actually a big deal. 

[The guy from the Vale]

But, again, they're concerned about nothingburgers. 

Look, I'm not calling people who hold those beliefs Nazis. I call the information Nazi propaganda, and that's because it is. The framing is deliberate. Brits will continue being a majority in the UK for centuries, in spite of the Irish and Polish and French and Germans and... in the UK, who, in a few generations, will consider themselves British anyway, with nobody caring about who their great-grandparents were. Nonwhites immigrate to the UK at lower rates than whites, so the UK is going to stay majority white for the indefinite future. Oh, and Brexit, if anything, has slowed white migration to the UK - so Brexit, if anything, is increasing the speed at which the nonwhite population grows relative to the white population. Which is still a nothingburger, but it's also a self-defeating nothingburger.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

33 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

Yup, democrats fail and are incompetent. Same old same old.

we have let them win by allowing the Trump framing of confederate founding fathers and United States founding fathers to be coequal.

democrats and their fucking tolerance and they can't see the godamn forest for the fucking trees.

and as a result of democrat stupidity, CSA and USA leaders are now equal partners. Fucking democrats can fuck right off. 

 

The major problem for Democrats and liberals right now is that nothing is getting through, attention wise, except for when someone out crazies Trump and the Republicans. All their attempts at trying to look like the reasonable party are largely getting ignored, and when they can actually get some positive messaging through, it’s almost immediately forgotten because Trump completely dominates every news cycle. This also happened to Clinton during the campaign. People kept saying that she didn’t have a positive message, which was inaccurate. She did, it’s just that nobody cared because it was a lot more fun to bash her over her flaws and watch the sideshow that was the Trump campaign.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

Conversely, people being alarmed at things that aren't actually a big deal does not mean that those things are actually a big deal. 

That is your opinion that is not a big deal, and reducing peoples worries by patting them on the head, telling them there is something wrong with them for being concerned is only going to lead to more and more right wing groups. Telling people to not be proud of their culture, to be ashamed of it instead while their culture slowly dies away is really not going help matters.

[The guy from the Vale]

9 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Yes I'm very aware of that. Just because White British will still continue to be a majority because of the sheer number of other nationalities in the country doesn't really diminish why people might be concerned. Hence why we have Brexit.

 

Btw that video is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Trying to discuss the subject seriously yet equating anyone with immigration / culture concerns with being a nazi. 

The video, by the way, makes it very clear why it considers those views Nazi - it goes into the sourcess of the original video that's being critiqued - and finds Holocaust-denying Hitler fanboys and sAntisemitic conspiracy theorists all around. That original video is nothing but a nice packaging for - fascist thought. It's literally Nazi propaganda in the 21st century, and you're unable to see and unwilling to hear because people call it out on what it is.

[Fez]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The major problem for Democrats and liberals right now is that nothing is getting through, attention wise, except for when someone out crazies Trump and the Republicans. All their attempts at trying to look like the reasonable party are largely getting ignored, and when they can actually get some positive messaging through, it’s almost immediately forgotten because Trump completely dominates every news cycle. This also happened to Clinton during the campaign. People kept saying that she didn’t have a positive message, which was inaccurate. She did, it’s just that nobody cared because it was a lot more fun to bash her over her flaws and watch the sideshow that was the Trump campaign.

Yeah, it's a problem. But at that the same time, Trump is so unpopular that if Democrats run a super boring, generic, likable white guy with no baggage in 2020, it'll probably be a landslide.

The midterms are bigger issue though, since I think a lot of voters won't necessarily see it as referendum on Trump (lot of individual Republicans are still very popular in their states/districts) and Democrats need those voters to see their pro-Democratic argument. This is especially true since thus far Trump's popularity has mostly dropped in safely blue and safely red areas, its almost unchanged in swing areas (though some of those safely red areas may become swing areas if this keeps up).

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

3 minutes ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

But, again, they're concerned about nothingburgers. 

Look, I'm not calling people who hold those beliefs Nazis. I call the information Nazi propaganda, and that's because it is. The framing is deliberate. Brits will continue being a majority in the UK for centuries, in spite of the Irish and Polish and French and Germans and... in the UK, who, in a few generations, will consider themselves British anyway, with nobody caring about who their great-grandparents were. Nonwhites immigrate to the UK at lower rates than whites, so the UK is going to stay majority white for the indefinite future. Oh, and Brexit, if anything, has slowed white migration to the UK - so Brexit, if anything, is increasing the speed at which the nonwhite population grows relative to the white population. Which is still a nothingburger, but it's also a self-defeating nothingburger.

Yes Brexit changed things, because people were so concerned about immigration and losing their cultural identity in their own country, and the only way to stop it was to seemingly ruin your own economy because nobody else had any other suggestions, nor were they prepared to do anything about it. In the US you have Trump, because nobody is prepared to listen, instead they call people racists and nazis and pat them on the head. 

White Britains are ALREADY a minority in London. It has already happened. It maybe framed for maximum effect and be disingenous but it has happened.

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

That is your opinion that is not a big deal

I didn't say that. I said that just because some people are afraid of it doesn't mean that it actually is something at all. 

Quote

and reducing peoples worries by patting them on the head, telling them there is something wrong with them for being concerned is only going to lead to more and more right wing groups. Telling people to not be proud of their culture, to be ashamed of it instead while their culture slowly dies away is really not going help matters.

Ya know, that's true. There was a good article in Vox about something liberals probably don't want to face up to, which is that so long as we don't allow people to speak about these issues that they're afraid of (regardless of the actual value of said fears) the more likely that they'll become radicalized by someone who does allow them to speak to these fears. 

Also:

https://twitter.com/catvalente/status/898600499254935552

[denstorebog]

So, another round of polls is out. The whole picture isn't clear until tomorrow, but it seems pretty obvious already:

Siding with Nazis hasn't dented Trump's approval one bit. If anything, it has improved slightly.

So now we know. There's absolutely no low bar in the culture war, no faux pas in the new mutation of the Republican party. And the media bubble is real. Everyone except Breitbart is criticizing Trump, talking about the end of the presidency, impeachment, the final moral bankruptcy of America.

But in the real world, among the real inbreds who control the electorate now, siding with the Nazis was the right thing to do. This has been an improvement of Trump's situation, contrary to what the outrage from everyone seems to imply.

It feels like 2016 all over again.