US Politics: On Many Sides

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 hours ago, Swordfish said:

I'm just gonna leave this here without further comment.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/08/17/watch-cnn-commentator-calls-for-the-removal-of-washington-and-jefferson-statues/

 

Yeah, this just legitimizes the slippery slope argument around these statues.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, Fez said:

Yeah, it's a problem. But at that the same time, Trump is so unpopular that if Democrats run a super boring, generic, likable white guy with no baggage in 2020, it'll probably be a landslide.

That's definitely the safer strategy, but personally, I want Democrats to swing for the fences. We can't just shoot for the White House. We need a landslide in the Congress and at the state level for redistricting purposes. A boring generic white guy might not achieve that.

13 minutes ago, Fez said:

The midterms are bigger issue though, since I think a lot of voters won't necessarily see it as referendum on Trump (lot of individual Republicans are still very popular in their states/districts) and Democrats need those voters to see their pro-Democratic argument. This is especially true since thus far Trump's popularity has mostly dropped in safely blue and safely red areas, its almost unchanged in swing areas (though some of those safely red areas may become swing areas if this keeps up).

I’m not terribly worried about the midterms at the moment. Democrats have all the momentum right now, and it doesn’t look like much will change in the next year unless Trump starts a war (and that could go either way politically). You’re correct in describing the current political landscape, but I think enough will change in the toss up districts to allow for Democrats to pick up around 20 seats, though they will probably fall short of a majority. Unfortunately as we both know, the Senate will be an entirely different story.

[ljkeane]

6 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, this just legitimizes the slippery slope argument around these statues.

I don't really see the issue. Anyone who was a slave owner was pretty objectively a terrible person. You might argue their other achievements still outweigh that but it's perfectly reasonable to have a debate about whether they should be celebrated.

Americans are weirdly sensitive to criticism of their founding fathers.

[Maithanet]

6 minutes ago, denstorebog said:

So, another round of polls is out. The whole picture isn't clear until tomorrow, but it seems pretty obvious already:

Siding with Nazis hasn't dented Trump's approval one bit. If anything, it has improved slightly.

So now we know. There's absolutely no low bar in the culture war, no faux pas in the new mutation of the Republican party. And the media bubble is real. Everyone except Breitbart is criticizing Trump, talking about the end of the presidency, impeachment, the final moral bankruptcy of America.

But in the real world, among the real inbreds who control the electorate now, siding with the Nazis was the right thing to do. This has been an improvement of Trump's situation, contrary to what the outrage from everyone seems to imply.

It feels like 2016 all over again.

I think it's too early to say that.  It looks to me like it was last week's North Korean brinksmanship that helped Trump improve a couple points at the polls after the health care debacle (which remember, was just three weeks ago). 

I don't think that the immediate impact of Charlottesville is going to help Trump.  If the question is "Nazis - Always terrible or some of them are good folks?" that is a loser in America.  Trump is trying to turn this into a culture war over Confederate monuments, which is much firmer ground politically.  Thus far it looks like Democrats have taken the bait, which is really stupid of them.  If that continues, then yes, Trump can expect his position with the Republican Party and Republican leaning independents to improve over the next couple of weeks.

[Seli]

26 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

That is your opinion that is not a big deal, and reducing peoples worries by patting them on the head, telling them there is something wrong with them for being concerned is only going to lead to more and more right wing groups. Telling people to not be proud of their culture, to be ashamed of it instead while their culture slowly dies away is really not going help matters.

There is a nice thing about living in a European constitutional monarchy, you get to look at a royal family that has a clear history of foreign influence and still know they are properly British/Dutch/Swedish/Spanish/etc.

[Zorral]

Not only did Pence cut his make-nice in South America short, it seems that for the very first time they are going to Camp David for a big staff meeting (Orangeazilla went there once before, if I have this right, in June.

Among the agenda is Eric Prince pitching to Orangeazilla to give him the 'war' in Afghanistan as his own private enterprise: 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/afghanistan-camp-david/537324/

[LongRider]

2 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Slightly overstating it ..

No Zorral is not overstating this, not at all. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

4 minutes ago, Seli said:

There is a nice thing about living in a European constitutional monarchy, you get to look at a royal family that has a clear history of foreign influence and still know they are properly British/Dutch/Swedish/Spanish/etc.

This is another tactic used to dismiss concerns. The ' we are all immigrants' or the ' there is no European culture' trope. 

[Trebla]

An editor at Breibart seems to be taking the Bannon news well:

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, ljkeane said:

I don't really see the issue. Anyone who was a slave owner was pretty objectively a terrible person. You might argue their other achievements still outweigh that but it's perfectly reasonable to have a debate about whether they should be celebrated.

Americans are weirdly sensitive to criticism of their founding fathers.

 It's history. You can't just erase the bits you don't like. 

I get the angle on the Confederate statues, I truly do. Especially those that were thrown up in the 60's as a direct response to the Civil Rights Movement. Those were essentially a middle finger to blacks and progressives. Tear those down all day. 

I honestly think the issue is ultimately a waste of time on both sides. Where does it stop? Thomas Jefferson? George Washington? I have no problem criticizing these men for their hypocrisies. Stop naming streets and schools after them. Find new objects of admiration to put on coins and moneys. All that is reasonable and workable. Taking down monuments that have stood for a century or more? Not so reasonable in my estimation.

[The guy from the Vale]

4 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

This is another tactic used to dismiss concerns. The ' we are all immigrants' or the ' there is no European culture' trope. 

But it does showcase what will happen to these immigrants in the not so far future: They will become just regular nonforeigners. The British royals aren't German any longer, and the Spanish royals aren't French anymore, either.

[Maithanet]

Ok, so board hive mind, what do we think?  Did Trump fire Bannon because of the fallout from Charlottesville?  Or because of those weird and surprisingly unflattering interviews he gave about both Trump and his supporters?  The official word is it was the latter, but the timing of all this is very strange. 

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 It's history. You can't just erase the bits you don't like. 

No one is stating that they want to. 

4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I honestly think the issue is ultimately a waste of time on both sides. Where does it stop? Thomas Jefferson? George Washington? I have no problem criticizing these men for their hypocrisies. Stop naming streets and schools after them. Find new objects of admiration to put on coins and moneys. All that is reasonable and workable. Taking down monuments that have stood for a century or more? Not so reasonable in my estimation.

The 'where does it stop' continues to be a shitty argument against doing anything. "What happens if we give gay people the right to marry? Do we give DOGS the right to marry? Do we treat gay people as HUMANS?" Removing confederate statues can be evaluated as a course of action to take right now without saying that it's okay to remove all statuary everywhere for all time. 

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Ok, so board hive mind, what do we think?  Did Trump fire Bannon because of the fallout from Charlottesville?  Or because of those weird and surprisingly unflattering interviews he gave about both Trump and his supporters?  The official word is it was the latter, but the timing of all this is very strange. 

Neither, IMO. Bannon got fired because Kelly came in and Kushner and Kelly angled to get him out. Mooch made reasonably good arguments that Bannon should be gone, and Trump likes Mooch a lot. This was on the books a couple weeks back, and actually got put on the back burner thanks to Charlottesville. Bannon and Mercer are talking about his next steps going forward and plan on focusing more on bigger media. 

This is not an attempt to throw anyone under the bus, and I strongly suspect that Trump will double down on the 'both sides' bullshit after this. 

I think that Bannon is largely okay with this because he also knows that the best way to influence Trump's opinion is to alternately flatter him and criticise others using media, not talk with him directly. Him arguing constantly with Kushner isn't going to be as effective. 

[Morpheus]

The notion that mouments are important historical artifacts is ridiculous. No one has ever once been enlightened by a monument, the are celebratory not educational. The history of Confederate monuments has been documented enough here, they were themselves attempts at rewriting history. Put them is a museum if you must, where they can have some context, not looming over people who have every right to resent them.

 

[Kalbear]

oooh

https://twitter.com/Susan_Hennessey/status/898611530496790529

[Bonnot OG]

So it take so the calling to take down statues of Jefferson and Washington to get Manhole fired up, but not white supmracists and Nazis  terrorizing a city and killing someone..... that speaks volumes, to me anyway.

 

oh, and removing no statues isn't erasing history. Cut that whiny white privileged garbage out.

[denstorebog]

Let's play a guessing game. Which symbolic, but ultimately inconsequential, policy gesture will Trump make on Monday to demonstrate to the alt-right that he's still their man?

Let your minds run wild. You know that he's going to do something outrageous.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The 'where does it stop' continues to be a shitty argument against doing anything. "What happens if we give gay people the right to marry? Do we give DOGS the right to marry? Do we treat gay people as HUMANS?" Removing confederate statues can be evaluated as a course of action to take right now without saying that it's okay to remove all statuary everywhere for all time. 

 Absolutely, but it could also lead to what about the Washington Monument? What about Monticello? That's all we're saying. The slippery slope argument is not shitty when you can already see rumblings of it. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

So it take so the calling to take down statues of Jefferson and Washington to get Manhole fired up, but not white supmracists and Nazis  terrorizing a city and killing someone..... that speaks volumes, to me anyway.

Yeah, I'm so fired up that I'm calling for hangings and giving folks their Free Speech once they are 6 feet under. My hysteria is so comparable to yours.