US Politics: On Many Sides

[Martell Spy]

Someone Dumped Coffee All Over Alex Jones While He Was Trying to Film in Seattle

https://www.thecut.com/2017/08/alex-jones-coffee-dumped-on-him-seattle-periscope.html

[OldGimletEye]

On 8/18/2017 at 6:18 PM, Martell Spy said:

snip

I've always said we should outsource war to Amway. With their stellar ethical record, surely nothing could go wrong.

[denstorebog]

Aaand Bannon is back at the helm of Breitbart. That was fast. The hashtag #war is being thrown around, but it's not yet clear if it's against Trump, Kushner or the press.

My guess? He and Trump are probably on perfectly amicable terms. Bannon wanted out, and Trump wanted to lose the baggage. Now Breitbart is going to to take up the mantle of the administration's now-disbanded 'war room' and get really dirty in going after MSM journalists and television profiles, probably on a borderline illegal level. I think this is going be extremely ugly.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

25 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

People who think their country (or the West as a whole) has a glorious culture that is somehow being lost may not be nazis, but they certainly share with them a distorted view of history.

I think the controversy surrounding the "Life in Roman Britain" BBC cartoon illustrates it well. For those who don't know, right-wingers were shocked by a cartoon showing a black Roman soldier in ancient Britain, and criticized it for "political correctness" running wild in the face of historical accuracy. As it turns out however, historians pointed out that Roman Britain was indeed rather ethnically diverse and that there had even been a Roman governor of Britain who was born in Algeria.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/07/542077027/a-cartoons-black-star-prompts-a-fight-what-did-roman-britain-look-like
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/06/mary-beard-misogynistic-race-row-bbc-cartoon-us-academic-claimed/

This shows what may be the root of the problem: the shock at seeing a black Roman soldier came from a fantasized vision of the past in which one couldn't exist. And such fantasized visions of the past in turn create erroneous perspectives about the times we live in. It's the same story throughout the West. It's the same story in the US because of a completely fantasized version of the Civil war. As historians say: "the North won the war, but the South won the peace," which means the South got to write the completely erroneous narrative of a fight for "States' rights." Of course, it was about slavery, it was about racism, it was about white supremacy, and the South's cause was very wrong.
Many people think it's important for nations to believe in "shared" history, even when such history is a lie ; they think these are "noble" lies, because pride brings people together. In French we call that the "national novel," the narrative upon which a nation is built. And I think this is where our problems today come from: such narratives are lies, fairy tales for the gullible. In truth, I don't think any nation has a history to be proud of. That is, unless you think wars, genocides and mass exploitation are stuff to be proud of.

So yes, I do believe there is something wrong with people who are "concerned" about the "loss and replacement of their culture." They are ignorant and/or falling for right-wing propaganda. They are blaming the wrong people for their economic woes. And they tend to elect awful leaders. Because they still want to believe in the fairy tale that their nation is "great" and "unique," and that there is something about it that they can take pride in. I would find it funny, but I don't think these "concerns" are anything to laugh about anymore.

The roman Britain outrage had a point though. There might have been the occasional African in Britain but it certainly wasn't representative of the general population. 

I think there is a genuine concern about loss of culture and it is justified on some level. I could talk about London in particular where it has already happened but it's the wrong thread 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

18 minutes ago, denstorebog said:

Aaand Bannon is back at the helm of Breitbart. That was fast. The hashtag #war is being thrown around, but it's not yet clear if it's against Trump, Kushner or the press.

My guess? He and Trump are probably on perfectly amicable terms. Bannon wanted out, and Trump wanted to lose the baggage. Now Breitbart is going to to take up the mantle of the administration's now-disbanded 'war room' and get really dirty in going after MSM journalists and television profiles, probably on a borderline illegal level. I think this is going be extremely ugly.

What makes you think Bannon wanted out?

[denstorebog]

5 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

What makes you think Bannon wanted out?

It was referenced in many of those inside stories that sites like Politico ran over the last month or two - that Bannon felt restrained and isolated in the admin.

It also seems clear from this article in which he, oh, by the way, declares that the Trump presidency is over. So that's probably not a good sign for the White House.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

35 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

Someone Dumped Coffee All Over Alex Jones While He Was Trying to Film in Seattle

https://www.thecut.com/2017/08/alex-jones-coffee-dumped-on-him-seattle-periscope.html

 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

People who think their country (or the West as a whole) has a glorious culture that is somehow being lost may not be nazis, but they certainly share with them a distorted view of history.

I think the controversy surrounding the "Life in Roman Britain" BBC cartoon illustrates it well. For those who don't know, right-wingers were shocked by a cartoon showing a black Roman soldier in ancient Britain, and criticized it for "political correctness" running wild in the face of historical accuracy. As it turns out however, historians pointed out that Roman Britain was indeed rather ethnically diverse and that there had even been a Roman governor of Britain who was born in Algeria.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/07/542077027/a-cartoons-black-star-prompts-a-fight-what-did-roman-britain-look-like
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/06/mary-beard-misogynistic-race-row-bbc-cartoon-us-academic-claimed/

This shows what may be the root of the problem: the shock at seeing a black Roman soldier came from a fantasized vision of the past in which one couldn't exist. And such fantasized visions of the past in turn create erroneous perspectives about the times we live in. It's the same story throughout the West. It's the same story in the US because of a completely fantasized version of the Civil war. As historians say: "the North won the war, but the South won the peace," which means the South got to write the completely erroneous narrative of a fight for "States' rights." Of course, it was about slavery, it was about racism, it was about white supremacy, and the South's cause was very wrong.
Many people think it's important for nations to believe in "shared" history, even when such history is a lie ; they think these are "noble" lies, because pride brings people together. In French we call that the "national novel," the narrative upon which a nation is built. And I think this is where our problems today come from: such narratives are lies, fairy tales for the gullible. In truth, I don't think any nation has a history to be proud of. That is, unless you think wars, genocides and mass exploitation are stuff to be proud of.

So yes, I do believe there is something wrong with people who are "concerned" about the "loss and replacement of their culture." They are ignorant and/or falling for right-wing propaganda. They are blaming the wrong people for their economic woes. And they tend to elect awful leaders. Because they still want to believe in the fairy tale that their nation is "great" and "unique," and that there is something about it that they can take pride in. I would find it funny, but I don't think these "concerns" are anything to laugh about anymore.

What really weird about this culture bs in the US is that just about everything that is / was uniquely USian is or comes out of African American > African culture, starting with music and food -- particularly in the former slavery states.  Even bluegrass, which is supposed to be so quintessentially white -- hello, banjo? just for starters.  But lately as African American musicians began reclaiming their heritage in BG, whites started screaming 'cultural appropriation.'

Family grouses about 'Mexicans' taking over -- while eating a catered Mexican meal, the catering service, of course, owned and operated by Mexican immigrants whose families came to Illinois in the 70's to work in the field doing work our families no longer wanted to do.

It's frackin' INSANE.

If culture is real cultre, it survives -- i.e. see African American culture.  It is transmitted within families.  But that's too intelligent for these ignoramuses.

The major reason culture / art disappears is because states want it gone (as with the partition of Poland) and because the people who run things don't give a shyte about art or know anything about it -- like the present so-called POTUS.  Capitalism pushing global pablum are the biggest perpetrators or the end of culture.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

12 minutes ago, denstorebog said:

It was referenced in many of those inside stories that sites like Politico ran over the last month or two - that Bannon felt restrained and isolated in the admin.

It also seems clear from this article in which he, oh, by the way, declares that the Trump presidency is over. So that's probably not a good sign for the White House.

Ah, thanks for the info.

To that article, his headline statement makes no sense. 

“The Trump presidency that we fought for, and won, is over,” he told the Weekly Standard on Friday. “We still have a huge movement, and we will make something of this Trump presidency. But that presidency is over."

 

/Have another shot Steve, then call us back once you've slept off the hangover.

[The guy from the Vale]

14 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

The roman Britain outrage had a point though. There might have been the occasional African in Britain but it certainly wasn't representative of the general population. 

I think there is a genuine concern about loss of culture and it is justified on some level. I could talk about London in particular where it has already happened but it's the wrong thread 

But if you always only take the examples that are most representative of the general population, you're just going to reenforce your own stereotypes about who we are, instead of taking a hard look at what actually did and did not happen. That's precisely what Rippounet talks about with respect to the danger of national narratives.

Your concern about London's "loss" of culture mainly betrays a general misunderstanding of what cities, particularly large trade-based metropoleis like New York, London or Singapore are all about. Let's just say that by your standards, London has been losing its culture for three hundred years at least.

Lastly, we're all losing our current culture, all the time. Old customs are replaced, new cultural norms arise. Nobody nowadays is walking around in togas, maille or culottes around any more, and that's fine. What has changed, to some extent, is the speed of that change and the variety of influences - but all that does is increase our choices. That may often be overwhelming, but at the same time you can still prefer the music, films and literature you prefer - because just because it's not the only thing around any more doesn't mean that it's not available any longer - quite the opposite.

[LongRider]

4 hours ago, Sword of Doom said:

The world will literally end if statues are taken down. The dead sculptures will rise from the graves and start rewriting history.

Is this how ASOIAF ends, in the WF crypts??!!         

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

The roman Britain outrage had a point though. There might have been the occasional African in Britain but it certainly wasn't representative of the general population. 

So you think it would have been better to have only white Romans, despite the fact that we know for a certainty that Roman legionaries came from all over the Roman empire and thus had all kinds of skin color? Despite the fact that there is physical evidence of African legionaries in ancient Britain. Because... It suits your vision of history better?
See, the problem here isn't that you would be surprised, or that you wouldn't know about those historical facts. The problem here is that even after knowing what historians have to say about it, you still think that your vision of history is better. Because part of you is so much more confortable with an all-white past. Not just a predominantly-white past, but an all-white past in which minorities can't possibly have existed.
Because, of course, if you start remembering that minorities have always existed in one form or the other, it becomes much harder to think Western civilization is under threat today. In fact, the very concept of "Western civilization" might seem slightly dodgy.

55 minutes ago, Zorral said:

What really weird about this culture bs in the US is that just about everything that is / was uniquely USian is or comes out of African American > African culture, starting with music and food -- particularly in the former slavery states.  Even bluegrass, which is supposed to be so quintessentially white -- hello, banjo? just for starters.  But lately as African American musicians began reclaiming their heritage in BG, whites started screaming 'cultural appropriation.'

Fun fact: after living in the US for a few years as a kid, other French kids asked me if I'd liked American cuisine. I said "yeah, I like the pizza." They laughed at me and thought I was a phony. Because of course, to these kids, it was so very obvious that pizza was Italian, and none of them could ever imagine that Americans could claim it as one of their specialties.

51 minutes ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

But if you always only take the examples that are most representative of the general population, you're just going to reenforce your own stereotypes about who we are, instead of taking a hard look at what actually did and did not happen. That's precisely what Rippounet talks about with respect to the danger of national narratives.

Your concern about London's "loss" of culture mainly betrays a general misunderstanding of what cities, particularly large trade-based metropoleis like New York, London or Singapore are all about. Let's just say that by your standards, London has been losing its culture for three hundred years at least.

Lastly, we're all losing our current culture, all the time. Old customs are replaced, new cultural norms arise. Nobody nowadays is walking around in togas, maille or culottes around any more, and that's fine. What has changed, to some extent, is the speed of that change and the variety of influences - but all that does is increase our choices. That may often be overwhelming, but at the same time you can still prefer the music, films and literature you prefer - because just because it's not the only thing around any more doesn't mean that it's not available any longer - quite the opposite.

You managed to say what I was thinking so much better than I had, thanks!

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

The roman Britain outrage had a point though. There might have been the occasional African in Britain but it certainly wasn't representative of the general population. 

I think there is a genuine concern about loss of culture and it is justified on some level. I could talk about London in particular where it has already happened but it's the wrong thread 

If your culture makes you feel threatened by people with different skin colors your culture sucks and deserves to die and those concerns may be genuinely felt but they are also genuinely shitty.

[Zorral]

26 minutes ago, Nasty LongRider said:

Is this how ASOIAF ends, in the WF crypts??!!         

Finally -- a reason for WWs -- confederate statues come to life, as halt and lame and twisted and out-of-touch with all realities as those they represented.

[The guy from the Vale]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Finally -- a reason for WWs -- confederate statues come to life, as halt and lame and twisted and out-of-touch with all realities as those they represented.

So, can we already say that Charlottesville was the result of a White Walker invasion?

[Zorral]

1 minute ago, Rippounet said:

So you think it would have been better to have only white Romans, despite the fact that we know for a certainty that Roman legionaries came from all over the Roman empire and thus had all kinds of skin color? Despite the fact that there is physical evidence of African legionaries in ancient Britain. Because... It suits your vision of history better?
See, the problem here isn't that you would be surprised, or that you wouldn't know about those historical facts. The problem here is that even after knowing what historians have to say about it, you still think that your vision of history is better. Because part of you is so much more confortable with an all-white past. Not just a predominantly-white past, but an all-white past in which minorities can't possibly have existed.
Because, of course, if you start remembering that minorities have always existed in one form or the other, it becomes much harder to think Western civilization is under threat today. In fact, the very concept of "Western civilization" might seem slightly dodgy.

And don't forget how many nursery slaves, chamber slaves, kitchen slaves, weaver slaves etc. of color there were -- and then the same out of Islamic slavery, who also had African slaves -- slaves always booty -- the history of Aquitaine's culture is indebted to them, via the permeable membrane of the lower Pyrenees between "Spain" and Aquitaine already in the Gothic / Merovinginian era -- which has a lot to do with the poetry, the courtly love tradition and all sorts of culture considered "french".  

[Zorral]

Just now, theguyfromtheVale said:

So, can we already say that Charlottesvlle was the result of a White Walker invasion?

As those white walker invaders were equally brainless, doncha think?    Besides,  Leslie Jones clued us that was who the WWs were when breakin' down ep. 5 tp Seth Meyers,  doncha remember?  

 

[LongRider]

5 minutes ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

So, can we already say that Charlottesville was the result of a White Walker invasion?

Can, we must!  You there, you've won yourself one internet!        

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

8 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

So you think it would have been better to have only white Romans, despite the fact that we know for a certainty that Roman legionaries came from all over the Roman empire and thus had all kinds of skin color? Despite the fact that there is physical evidence of African legionaries in ancient Britain. Because... It suits your vision of history better?
See, the problem here isn't that you would be surprised, or that you wouldn't know about those historical facts. The problem here is that even after knowing what historians have to say about it, you still think that your vision of history is better. Because part of you is so much more confortable with an all-white past. Not just a predominantly-white past, but an all-white past in which minorities can't possibly have existed.
Because, of course, if you start remembering that minorities have always existed in one form or the other, it becomes much harder to think Western civilization is under threat today. In fact, the very concept of "Western civilization" might seem slightly dodgy.

No the outrage came from the perception of a sort of reverse white washing of history. There may well have been some African legionaries in Britain but in terms of the population they were a total minority.

The out rage was a reaction to a general trend of the media being ashamed of white history, and forcing a viewpoint that people should be accepting of the levels of immigration forced upon them and shouldn't complain. 

[Week]

5 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

The out rage was a reaction to a general trend of the media being ashamed of white history, and forcing a viewpoint that people should be accepting of the levels of immigration forced upon them and shouldn't complain. 

I am outraged every time I see a young mother or father with a baby stroller. When was I consulted? I don't want their progeny to be forced on me. The younger generation is so vapid, disconnected, and disinterested. I fear for the future of our culture.