Why Dany and Khal Drogo’s Wedding Night Is So Bitterly Disappointing.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

Hmm, I have to disagree with you. I think it's all a (perfectly reasonable) defense mechanism. Dany didn't want to get raped (and it's her first time, her wedding night, little girls dream about their weddings, right?) so, in her mind, she "takes control" of the situation; though of course, she's not in control at all, she is being raped, but she tricks herself into believing otherwise. We see this later with Dany, whenever she looks back on her marriage with Drogo, she only ever seems to have fond memories, despite everything. The only bad memory she seems to have is being sold, and that's a bad memory of Viserys, not Drogo.

You have to remember that what we're seeing isn't what is "actually happening", if you like. All of the events are happening, of course, but the mood isn't supplied by GRRM, it's supplied by Dany. It's all the way she views the situation. The romanticizing is by Dany, as a way of dealing with the horror that she's going through. She can't cope with the situation the way it is, so she changes it, if only in her mind. That is a perfectly realistic defense mechanism.

Though I do agree with you about people who think of Dany and Drogo as a love story. I certainly don't see it, at least.

[punzerknacker]

I completely agree with OP and I think now, 20 years later GRRM would not have gotten away with a scene like that so easily. Which you can tell by the show changing this scene to a way more realistic rape scene (as mentioned above) even though the actress they used was a grown woman and her having consensual sex with Drogo on screen would have been far less terrifying to watch. Actually the only rape scene in GoT that was a good decision in my opinion (sorry I know this is the book forum but I still feel like it's a valid point to OP's argument that the book scene was so wildly unrealistic and creepy even the show runners couldn't bring themselves to put that on our screens).

[The Sleeper]

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I’ve really struggled with Dany’s personality changes, too. I agree with the OP, but I’ve noticed other changes, too and suspect the dragons might be the cause.

 

She started out as very meek but extremely observant. Once married (and upon receiving her dragon eggs), her meekness begins to slide away and she becomes more resourceful deciding to make the best of her marriage, unfortunate as it was. She was clever in observing Drago and Dothraki culture and using this information to improve her station. Once the dragons hatched though, I saw a lot less of that cleverness. Instead of thinking, the dragons always became the answer. I didn’t feel like I was reading book 1 Dany (post-marriage) until the HOTU vision where she was separated from her dragons and had to use her wits to manage her situation.

 

A lot of the mistakes attributed to Dany in the slaver cities I felt like book 1 Dany (again, post-marriage) would have been clever enough not to have made. The slaver city characters which seemed unrealistic and cartoonish when told by Dany became much more realistic seen by Barristan and Tyrion indicating the degree to which Dany had apparently just checked out which seemed so unlike the observant Dany in book 1. At the end of ADWD, she concludes that she can’t rule, but when I read book 1 Dany navigating her way through Dothraki culture, then I disagree as I think pre-dragon Dany would be a competent ruler given more time and life experience.

 

For me, Dany’s big personality changes coincide with:

 

1. Receiving the dragon eggs

 

2. The eggs seeming to come to life from stone

 

3. The eggs hatching

 

4. Two of the dragons being locked up (Dany checked out in Meereen)

 

5. When Dany finally bonds with Drogon who is out in the wild being very dragon-y, suddenly she’s fire-and-blood-dragons-plant-no-trees.

 

The warg bond and the dragon bond are not completely unalike. Bran is warned not to spend too much time in Summer or the wolf may take over the man. I’m really wondering if the same isn’t the case with dragons.

 

 

 

Other than the dragon eggs and the rest of the metaphysical stuff. There is also drastic changes in her circumstances. She goes from an urchin at the mercy of an abusive brother, to khaleesi with attendants dedicated to her comfort and protection, to queen in her own right with fanatical following. By the time she has conquered Meereen, she lives in relative isolation on top of a virtual mountain where people go to quasi pilgrimage to beg her favor. At that stage she actually compares herself to several deities. These things change a person's outlook and character. I am more inclined to see the metaphysical stuff as a vehicle to visualize the changes the character is going through rather than as causal of those changes.

As for the wedding, it was Viserys who was Dany's abuser and Drogo represented an escape from the former. Drogo won her over by giving her silver. You can't get a symbol for agency, more poignant than that.

I'm not going to dispute that the situation is fucked up in multitude of ways, but I don't see the characterization working without that potential being there in the first place. Otherwise Dany would have just seen it as a change of owner.

[chrisdaw]

3 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

It was a worthless scene that did not move the plot along in anyway. 

And there we go. That you don't understand the scene was all that needed saying.

[Regular John Umber]

 I don't think GRRM would leave that in if it didn't have a purpose. He's not going to gloss over what that would be like for a 13 year old girl, when he's pretty obsessed with the horrific effects of war, child-soldiers, , feminism, etc. It's been said up-thread that Dany has strange turns of character that appear strange to her as well, not just the reader. I think it's pointing to Dany perhaps being controlled or influenced in some other way. 

[Springwatch]

15 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

The wedding night scene didn't move the plot along in any way. It didn't change the characters in anyway. It didn't make them closer to each other. This scene could have been altered and the story line would not have been affected in anyway other than making it more realistic.

So, yes, I stand by my claim that there was no reason for it to happen other than George RR Martin wanting to rush an empowering moment on Dany while sacrificing realism, believability, logic, and storytelling. It was written to be written. 

You got it in a nutshell. It was a misjudged scene; it feels wrong every time I read it.

It is consistent though with the way the author treats 'realism'. Realism is only present to be sensational - graphic sex and violence, epic squallor and suffering - but this is not meant to be a realistic story, and if we reject a scene for being unrealistic, logically we must reject everything unrealistic - and there's lots!

For example, the silver filly. Very young horses like this are lively and unpredictable and easily spooked - an incredibly stupid choice for a fairly inexperienced rider like Dany. But this filly is not realistic, and nor is Dany's riding - suddenly she's capable of riding through a crowd at a gallop, finishing with a leap over a firepit. Realism has been dropped in favour of imagery:

'a young filly, spirited and splendid'; 'silver'; 'beautiful'; 'the pride of the khalasar': Drogo's not just giving her a horse, he's giving her a new self-image.

Quote

A daring she had never known filled Daenerys then, and she gave the filly her head.

The silver horse leapt the flames as if she had wings.

The symbolism says Dany has found her spirit - she won't be defeated in the very next scene. She can't be. And in a chapter driven by symbolism, the wedding night isn't going to be allowed to fail either, because it foreshadows a successful relationship. The realistic horrors early in the marriage can wait.

That's the general idea, anyway. Realism is optional. I'm not saying it always works - it certainly doesn't here.

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

Agree 100%. What should've been a scene of horrific abuse is told like a romantic, erotic fantasy. And to make matters even more incongruous and disturbing, after that unrealistic display of misguided erotica, Drogo continues to rape Dany every day to the point that she wishes she was dead, and THIS time the situation is described as a violent rape.

So what gives? You can't have both ways. GRRM seemed unable to make up his mind as to how he wanted to portray Drogo. He's either a rapist or a tender lover, but he can't be both. 

[TwiceBorn]

OMG another neurotic guilt thread about sex.

Like if teenager is turned on then it must be WRONG! The only sexual activity a teenager can have is rape!

Well that is USA law speaking, not the realities of Westeros where girls are being married to adult man the moment they bleed and sometimes actually do fall in love with their husbands. Feelings are not rational by definition, case closed.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

1 hour ago, TwiceBorn said:

OMG another neurotic guilt thread about sex.

Like if teenager is turned on then it must be WRONG! The only sexual activity a teenager can have is rape!

Well that i

This is not a debate about whether teenagers get turned on by sex or not, you seem to be on the wrong thread. And when teenagers do have sex, it's usually with someone they're not terrified of.

 

If Daenerys was a normal stable teen who chose to marry Drogo and have sex with him, her getting turned on wouldn't be problematic or unrealistic.

 

What is unrealistic, is that a traumatized thirteen year old who has been abused her entire life, who is timid, fearful, withdrawn, who is so ignorant of sex that she becomes afraid when she sees the warriors having sex with the dancers. Who views Khal Drogo as her worst nightmare is going to get turned on and lead this man's hand to her private parts. No child EVER will behave like that with someone they're terrified of. It's pure stupidity. It's also inconsistent with how Daenerys was described BEFORE the wedding night scene and even AFTER it.

 

You seem to miss the point and think the issue is because a child was turned on. It goes beyond the fact that she's a child. This is about Daenery's history as an abused child. Daenery's characterization as someone who is fearful, timid, and furtive. Daenery's intense fear of Khal Drogo (she fears him more than Viserys) she cries when he starts undressing her. This is about the fact that she is a child bride who was sold to this man and she isn't even emotionally ready for marriage or sex. All of these different factors come together to scream bullshit concerning the way GRRM had her react on her wedding night.

1 hour ago, TwiceBorn said:

OMG another neurotic guilt thread about sex.

Like if teenager is turned on then it must be WRONG! The only sexual activity a teenager can have is rape!

Well that is USA law speaking, not the realities of Westeros where girls are being married to adult man the moment they bleed and sometimes actually do fall in love with their husbands. Feelings are not rational by definition, case closed.

s USA law speaking, not the realities of Westeros where girls are being married to adult man the moment they bleed and sometimes actually do fall in love with their husbands. Feelings are not rational by definition, case closed.

This is not a debate about whether teenagers get turned on by sex or if teen sex is okay or not, you seem to be on the wrong thread. And when teenagers do have sex, it's usually with someone they're not terrified of.

 

If Daenerys was a normal stable teen who chose to marry Drogo and have sex with him, her getting turned on wouldn't be problematic or unrealistic for that time period.

 

What is unrealistic, is that a traumatized thirteen year old who has been abused her entire life, who is timid, fearful, withdrawn, who is so ignorant of sex that she becomes afraid when she sees the warriors having sex with the dancers. Who views Khal Drogo as her worst nightmare is going to get turned on and lead this man's hand to her private parts. No child EVER will behave like that with someone they're terrified of. It's pure stupidity. It's also inconsistent with how Daenerys was described BEFORE the wedding night scene and even AFTER it.

 

You seem to miss the point and think the issue is because a child was turned on. It goes beyond the fact that she's a child. This is about Daenerys' history as an abused child. Daenerys' characterization as someone who is fearful, timid, and furtive. Daenerys' intense fear of Khal Drogo (she fears him more than Viserys) she cries when he starts undressing her. This is about the fact that she is a child bride who was sold to this man and she isn't even emotionally ready for marriage or sex. All of these different factors come together to scream bullshit concerning the way GRRM had her react on her wedding night.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

18 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

And there we go. That you don't understand the scene was all that needed saying.

"Hers is a story that encourages fans to defend a child bride marriage rather than denouncing it." <---- Thank you for continuously proving my point.

Furthermore, you lack an argument. In fact, you don't have any. Vague responses towards what I write is not going to make me take you seriously. It simply seems like you cannot put together a reason as to why the Dany/Khal Drogo scene makes sense, so you settle for general responses towards what I write instead of putting together an opposing debate that defends the passage.

[Trigger Warning]

Even if noble girls are prepared for this everyday of their lives and even if her body did react positively to stimulation it still reads awfully, it's quite obviously a lot more romanticised than it should be and she's far too comfortable, it was jarring to read especially in contrast to how he has sex with her further down the line which begs the question why did the first time need to be written in this way at all?

Her guiding his finger in is simply worthy of eye rolls. 

 

[Makk]

I think you have to realise that this is not different from many other marriages in the ASOIAF material and many, many marriages from our own real life history, and even some situations today. To suppose that it is impossible for a girl that age in that situation to react physically to stimulation is a bit naive and bound up in modern day values. They were certainly raised a different way to expect different things. I think it is important for the way he wanted the story to develop that Dany accepted him and come to love him, both for Khal Drogo's character and her own. GRRM has said that the equivalent time of history he is depicting was harsh and brutal and I don't think he should be expected to alter it to suit modern day morals.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

1 hour ago, Makk said:

I think you have to realise that this is not different from many other marriages in the ASOIAF material and many, many marriages from our own real life history, and even some situations today. To suppose that it is impossible for a girl that age in that situation to react physically to stimulation is a bit naive and bound up in modern day values. They were certainly raised a different way to expect different things. I think it is important for the way he wanted the story to develop that Dany accepted him and come to love him, both for Khal Drogo's character and her own. GRRM has said that the equivalent time of history he is depicting was harsh and brutal and I don't think he should be expected to alter it to suit modern day morals.

• Once again, it has absolutely nothing to do with modern day morals. 1) It is about the psyche of an abused and traumatized child who has been sold off to a stranger that utterly terrifies her. 2) It is about the wedding night passage being inconsistent with Daenerys' characterization BEFORE and AFTER. It didn't serve a purpose because the characters reverted right back to their original characterization right after. When a passage doesn't develop or change the plot, doesn't change the relationship between two characters, doesn't move the story along in anyway, it is pointless.

 

'To suppose that it is impossible for a girl that age in that situation to react physically to stimulation'

• Whether a child lived in 297 AC or 2017, a terrified child will respond negatively to their worst nightmare. Viserys has beaten and hurt her her entire life, but this man that she just laid eyes on frightened her more --> Her brother hurt her sometimes, when she woke the dragon, but he did not frighten her the way this man frightened her.  To try to argue that it is realistic or makes sense for a thirteen year old who is having nightmares, shaking with fear, crying, to do a 180 a mere page later and suddenly get turned on by the man who is THE CAUSE of these intense feelings of terror is an alarming mindset for one to possess. GRRM mindset of 'if you stroke a crying child long enough she will get turned on' is absolutely disturbing. It's one thing to sweep it under the rug because it's fantasy, it's a whole other thing to try to claim it's realistic and actual children will react the same as Daenerys.

 

'They were certainly raised a different way to expect different things'

• Daenerys was not raised up learning Westeros customs. She was isolated and in hiding. Her day to day concern was about surviving, eating, and surviving Viserys' abuse, not learning how to become a proper lady like Sansa, or how to please a future husband. Daenerys did not grow up thinking marrying a man twice her age was the norm, nor did Visery's think it was normal to have Dany marry so young ---> “Are you sure that Khal Drogo likes his women this young?” “ She has had her blood. She is old enough for the khal, “ Illyrio told him, not for the first time. “Look at her. That silver gold hair, those purple eyes...she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt... and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo.” When he released her hand, Daenerys found herself trembling.“ I suppose,” her brother said doubtfully. “The savages have queer tastes." 

Obviously Viserys found it downright weird that Khal Drogo would be willing to marry a young child. This makes it clear that Daenerys was not raised thinking that she would have to marry a man twice her age at the age of thirteen. The Targaryen custom is the only thing that Viserys taught her, so she grew up believing that she would end up eventually marrying Viserys when she was OLDER.

This marriage benefits Illyrio so he couldn't care less about Daenerys wellbeing'. He didn't even think she would survive being Khal Drogo's wife and he was still willing to sell her off. Daenerys wasn't sold off because it's something normal for her or something that she was groomed for, she was sold off because the adults in her life cared more about their own ambitions than her wellbeing.

[TwiceBorn]

Abused, traumatized, terrified child finds solace in arms of a monster. Her monster now. It's not very surprising that the future Mother of Dragons has discovered a fondness for a big powerful self-confident man who is so unlike her weakling brother. It was in her blood.

[Ser Petyr Parker]

I think it's a bit much to think you know how anyone would react in that situation. We think people would be traumatised by violence and gore, too. Beheadings, hangings, maimings, battles full of blood, body parts, guts and screams. But this was the reality for many people, both in ASOIAF and historically. Everyone had a horrifying life compared to what we're used to. Maybe everyone really was traumatised, historically. Or maybe growing up expecting it made a difference, and people adjusted somehow. Either way, this scene doesn't stand out as dropping the trauma ball any more than any of the others featuring violence do. The book practically begins with a father saying "Hey watch this!" to his seven-year-old son and chopping someone's head off with a massive sword, and that's almost the least of it. It's just not justified to treat this scene as standing out among all the others.

[SeanF]

 

To the O/P, could you please stop shouting?

[Julia H.]

I agree with the OP to a large extent. I also agree with the opinion that the gift of the silver filly in the story is meant to change certain things for Dany - how believable the connection is is another question though. Would that super-symbolic gift really make such a difference on the spot? 

That romanticized scene seems to be false in retrospect also because we can guess it from subsequent chapters that it was probably followed by a scene similar to the ones Dany regularly suffered from during the first weeks / months (?) of her married life. At least, I find it hard to believe that Drogo was tender and considerate for one night then went on to rape her night after night, never caring about her feelings. What's the point? We know that Dany still has to teach him to be kinder to her, and it is to his credit that he is willing to change certain things for her, but the romanticized moments of their first night together cannot be the full truth, especially because they apparently have different expectations from a cultural standpoint as well (sex in the Dothraki way is very different from what Dany considers acceptable). 

[Davjos]

I feel the OP is glossing over some very important details in regards to Dany's wedding night. 

1) unreliable narrator. We know from the rest of her story Dany bended the truth about her marriage to Drogo since it was her ticket out of the horrendous life she had before it. Same with Sansa and her 'Unkiss'. 

2) Viserys has indoctrinated her, perparing her for her obligations as a wife. She has undoubtedly known for some time she had to consumate the wedding for her to fullfill her obligations(her view not mine). That's why I think she says 'Yes'. Not because she wants to, but she feels she has to. 

3) a physical reaction does not point towards arousal. I have to pull from my experience as a hormonal mess of a male teenager since I thankfully lack experience with unwilling women, but I know for a fact I've had awkward boners that were in No way related to being aroused. Or are you saying I was romanticizing French class since I once had to present infront of class with a boner. Dany calling her vagina wetness does not point to any psychological or emotional arousal. It points to a biological, physical reaction she has no control over. 

 

You claiming it wasn't horrible, traumatising rape because she was a little wet is a bit baffling to me. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Even more unrealistic was the barbarian Drogo's sudden tenderness in this situation.

This is the guy that happily kills men, rapes their wives and enslaves their children by the thousands. In whose culture a wife is worth less than a horse. His sudden empathy with his frightened child bride is totally unrealistic, in my view.

[syrinx]

OP makes a great point.

Apart from the imagery explanations raised above, I think GRRM went for this to go easy on the readers. How many people would have been put off permanently by horrible brutality this early on? He opted for an unrealistic start to be able to be more realistic later IMHO. Does not change the fact that the scene is indeed a mess.